[Theory] Post-Humanism And The Possible Impact On Tenno And Their Culture

[Archangelzz]

hmm... I assumed the next faction would be the Orokin. The Sentients were human, and the Orokin weren't sentient (we name our enemies based on how they are different from us; Allied soldiers in WW2 didn't call the enemy Humans, they called them Nazis).

 

Actually, I love DE for coming up with a truly alien enemy. I mean, no sentience? Either they're robots, or aliens so different from us that I literally cannot come close to imagining how they 'think'. 

 

Even better, we need two new factions; the reemergence of the Orokin-Sentient war. I assume that Grineer would ally with the Sentients (being descended from them) and the Corpus with the Orokin (having worshiped them).

 

Both factions would hate us though xD

I don't think the Sentients were human you can even look it up on the Excalibur index but it states that the more powerful and technologically  advanced the Orokin became the stronger and more dangerous the Sentients became it was only when the Orokin created the warframes and they started using lower tech weapons like blades and bullets did they start to push them back. Its almost like the more advanced the Orokin became the more advanced the Sentients became like the fed upon the technology besides just Sentient just means they can feel that could very well mean they are cybernetic and can feel who knows. We do know for a fact though that the Orokin were robots or some kind of androids that ruled over humanity. 

Edited November 25, 2014 by Archangelzz

[Blakrana]

hmm... I assumed the next faction would be the Orokin. The Sentients were human, and the Orokin weren't sentient (we name our enemies based on how they are different from us; Allied soldiers in WW2 didn't call the enemy Humans, they called them Nazis).

 

Actually, I love DE for coming up with a truly alien enemy. I mean, no sentience? Either they're robots, or aliens so different from us that I literally cannot come close to imagining how they 'think'. 

 

Even better, we need two new factions; the reemergence of the Orokin-Sentient war. I assume that Grineer would ally with the Sentients (being descended from them) and the Corpus with the Orokin (having worshiped them).

 

Both factions would hate us though xD

 

The Orokin Empire, as the codices have suggested thus far, was a human empire. The Sentients by contrast are supposedly the users of the 'Worm ships' mentioned in Mag Prime's Codex and Hidden Messages, and may have been natives of the 'blue star' again mentioned in Mag Prime's Codex.

 

Considering the probability that extra-solar travel was limited, likely using Solar Rails and Void 'folds' in space to circumvent FTL issues, it seems reasonable that the Sentient moniker was derived out of simple human anthropocentric attitudes. After all, the only sentient life we know of are ourselves, and encountering an alien being neither physically or mentally similar to us would lead to dismissal. Human hubris is eternal, after all.

 

Leading to the cold, stark terror that these Worm-ships, and their potentially very alien occupants were not only sentient but dangerously so. Enough to justify calling them Sentient, lest the soldiers on the battlefield underestimate the credibility of this threat. It may even be that the Worm 'ships' are the Sentients, making them a race fathoms beyond our understanding as they could exist in the void of space.

 

Last creature I heard of being able to resist vacuum naturally was the Xenomorph, or rather, the titular Alien. Not unheard of in sci-fi.

 

 We do know for a fact though that the Orokin were robots or some kind of androids that ruled over humanity. 

 

That's not the case I'm afraid. We know that the term 'Orokin' means 'Golden People', and we know that according to Stalker, they were 'Cold and Gold emperors'. However, it is not impossible that these Emperors, especially when we look at the Void towers, could not have been heavily adorned in Forma as befitting their station and likely tastes.

 

These emperors may likely have been a category of transhuman, but the idea of humanity, proud and self-centred as it is, obeying the will of machines however advanced, seems unlikely. I could be wrong, but the Orokin Emperors were more likely transhumans than androids or cyborgs, entities that would be more easily appreciable as semi-divine as all the white and gold in the Void and Derelicts implies.

 

And of course, white and gold are both colours that don't necessarily have positive connotations. They look pretty, but they can be used to hide deeper flaws through white washing or gold leaf.

[EversorNinja]

The Orokin Empire, as the codices have suggested thus far, was a human empire. The Sentients by contrast are supposedly the users of the 'Worm ships' mentioned in Mag Prime's Codex and Hidden Messages, and may have been natives of the 'blue star' again mentioned in Mag Prime's Codex.

 

Considering the probability that extra-solar travel was limited, likely using Solar Rails and Void 'folds' in space to circumvent FTL issues, it seems reasonable that the Sentient moniker was derived out of simple human anthropocentric attitudes. After all, the only sentient life we know of are ourselves, and encountering an alien being neither physically or mentally similar to us would lead to dismissal. Human hubris is eternal, after all.

 

Leading to the cold, stark terror that these Worm-ships, and their potentially very alien occupants were not only sentient but dangerously so. Enough to justify calling them Sentient, lest the soldiers on the battlefield underestimate the credibility of this threat. It may even be that the Worm 'ships' are the Sentients, making them a race fathoms beyond our understanding as they could exist in the void of space.

 

Last creature I heard of being able to resist vacuum naturally was the Xenomorph, or rather, the titular Alien. Not unheard of in sci-fi.

 

 

That's not the case I'm afraid. We know that the term 'Orokin' means 'Golden People', and we know that according to Stalker, they were 'Cold and Gold emperors'. However, it is not impossible that these Emperors, especially when we look at the Void towers, could not have been heavily adorned in Forma as befitting their station and likely tastes.

 

These emperors may likely have been a category of transhuman, but the idea of humanity, proud and self-centred as it is, obeying the will of machines however advanced, seems unlikely. I could be wrong, but the Orokin Emperors were more likely transhumans than androids or cyborgs, entities that would be more easily appreciable as semi-divine as all the white and gold in the Void and Derelicts implies.

 

And of course, white and gold are both colours that don't necessarily have positive connotations. They look pretty, but they can be used to hide deeper flaws through white washing or gold leaf.

 

Well then, I guess I misunderstood something. But that definitely explains why the Orokin were so aesthetically minded; I never thought robots would make everything shiny and ostentatious. And yes, the concept that there's life out in the universe is scary. The concept that there's sentient life out there is terrifying, and now that you mention it, we would make special note of an alien race's sentience. 

 

Worm ships could just mean that they travel through wormholes. I hope they're alien space worms, though. The war started when their queen ate the Millennium Falcon 

[Blakrana]

Wormholes are...complicated. Really, really complicated. However, the way that these likely Sentient ships are described use particularly precise language;

 

"The countless articulating worm-ships of our enemy, ringed in glowing discs, undulating and heat-bursting the surviving soldiers like me."

Emphasis added, sourced here.

 

Then we have comments in Hidden messages, mentioning 'Multifaceted eye' and 'Swarmed' again in context of the Worm-ships attacking Original Mirage. Taken together with Mag Prime's codex, it paints a picture of a non-conventional 'ship' that is actually 'worm like' for its form, not its function. Space travel in Warframe seems to hinge partially on super engines and the abuse of the Void for Solar Rail transit, much like Mass Relays in Mass Effect, although nowhere near the same scale. Quite how that works is a little unclear, but that's the matter at hand.

 

I'm not sure what else to say than this is what the evidence we have seems to imply and/or support.

 

Concerning alien life, I will leave you with this:

 

"Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying" - Arthur C. Clarke

[Archangelzz]

The Orokin Empire, as the codices have suggested thus far, was a human empire. The Sentients by contrast are supposedly the users of the 'Worm ships' mentioned in Mag Prime's Codex and Hidden Messages, and may have been natives of the 'blue star' again mentioned in Mag Prime's Codex.

 

Considering the probability that extra-solar travel was limited, likely using Solar Rails and Void 'folds' in space to circumvent FTL issues, it seems reasonable that the Sentient moniker was derived out of simple human anthropocentric attitudes. After all, the only sentient life we know of are ourselves, and encountering an alien being neither physically or mentally similar to us would lead to dismissal. Human hubris is eternal, after all.

 

Leading to the cold, stark terror that these Worm-ships, and their potentially very alien occupants were not only sentient but dangerously so. Enough to justify calling them Sentient, lest the soldiers on the battlefield underestimate the credibility of this threat. It may even be that the Worm 'ships' are the Sentients, making them a race fathoms beyond our understanding as they could exist in the void of space.

 

Last creature I heard of being able to resist vacuum naturally was the Xenomorph, or rather, the titular Alien. Not unheard of in sci-fi.

 

 

That's not the case I'm afraid. We know that the term 'Orokin' means 'Golden People', and we know that according to Stalker, they were 'Cold and Gold emperors'. However, it is not impossible that these Emperors, especially when we look at the Void towers, could not have been heavily adorned in Forma as befitting their station and likely tastes.

 

These emperors may likely have been a category of transhuman, but the idea of humanity, proud and self-centred as it is, obeying the will of machines however advanced, seems unlikely. I could be wrong, but the Orokin Emperors were more likely transhumans than androids or cyborgs, entities that would be more easily appreciable as semi-divine as all the white and gold in the Void and Derelicts implies.

 

And of course, white and gold are both colours that don't necessarily have positive connotations. They look pretty, but they can be used to hide deeper flaws through white washing or gold leaf.

I suppose that could be true but I have a feeling they are not organic or used to be and are not anymore and I am going to go out on a limb and say that by the end of the war there were not a lot of Orokin left. As we were able to take out every single one of them all at once and topple the entire empire with one swift stroke.

[Kidkilla]

After reading all the 'primes' codex entries, I think Tenno are basically clones of the Orokin who, if we're using Dark Sector as the basis of Warframe history are those humans that could control the technolyte virus and bend it to their will thus becoming transhuman, with the final aim of becoming post human. The Tenno were created to be the hand as it were, of the Orokin, but in their hubris, who did the Orokin use as their basis? I also think the Corpus had a hand in their creation as they seem awfully interested in how the Tenno tick.

As for the Grineer, they represent the the decendents on the peon class, those humans that came under the original Orokin banner at the start of the spread of the technolyte virus for protection. As a result they were spared the worst and I think the Orokin ensured they produced whatever antiviral a were needed. But when the Tenno, destroyed the Orokin they were forced to look at alternatives, one of which was cloning of those that were more infection immune. As more fell to infection, the gene pool shrunk and we now have the Grineer, who want access to the void and Orokin tech to reinvigorate themselves.

[EversorNinja]

"Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying" - Arthur C. Clarke

 

Yeah I had that quote in mind as I typed that post xD

 

You are very thorough; yet again there's plenty of hints about things like worm ships, hidden away in quests and codex entries. 

Actual space worms is a lot cooler than wormhole travel, anyway. 

[Blakrana]

I suppose that could be true but I have a feeling they are not organic or used to be and are not anymore and I am going to go out on a limb and say that by the end of the war there were not a lot of Orokin left. As we were able to take out every single one of them all at once and topple the entire empire with one swift stroke.

 

It's arguably not that hard to imagine. Even today, all the great people of power are mostly a handful of people, hence all the stringent security measures for things like the G20 summit. History has tales of how by killing the leader of an opposing army of greater size, the smaller force won the battle through damaging morale.

 

If someone publicly and suddenly killed all the world leaders and their immediate attendants in a single stroke, the resulting chaos would exacerbate the damage, compounded further as additional attacks are performed. What I feel needs to be taken into account is that Stalker is describing something that was painful for him to witness; he cuts his account short because the extent of time it took to fully destroy the Empire, is irrelevant to the fact that the Terminus Incident was where it started. It's rather common, least in my experience, for someone to 'abbreviate' a traumatic experience, especially when talking to someone they're not comfortable with.

 

The most efficient method of warfare is to destroy the leadership structure; without the head, the body dies.

 

As a possible way of understanding events, of course.

 

After reading all the 'primes' codex entries, I think Tenno are basically clones of the Orokin who, if we're using Dark Sector as the basis of Warframe history are those humans that could control the technolyte virus and bend it to their will thus becoming transhuman, with the final aim of becoming post human. The Tenno were created to be the hand as it were, of the Orokin, but in their hubris, who did the Orokin use as their basis? I also think the Corpus had a hand in their creation as they seem awfully interested in how the Tenno tick.

As for the Grineer, they represent the the decendents on the peon class, those humans that came under the original Orokin banner at the start of the spread of the technolyte virus for protection. As a result they were spared the worst and I think the Orokin ensured they produced whatever antiviral a were needed. But when the Tenno, destroyed the Orokin they were forced to look at alternatives, one of which was cloning of those that were more infection immune. As more fell to infection, the gene pool shrunk and we now have the Grineer, who want access to the void and Orokin tech to reinvigorate themselves.

 

Admittedly, I'm not sure so much on how far back the Grineer and Corpus go. It is possible that the Technocyte is an outside force, however it is like you say likely the Orokin elite were transhumans through some means or other, potentially the Technocyte and control. It is worth noting that at no point has a cure for Technocyte ever been implied or considered as a possibility, and Mercy Killing is not a cure, only a response.

 

However, if the Tenno were indeed clones of the Orokin, it'd be easy then for DE to just give a general male/female appearance and build it up from there, resolving the debate. It's also worth noting that the power the Orokin elite may have wielded could have been something they'd have been loathe to grant access to some means of clones; Bioshock rather happily shows the problems with genetic locks coded to certain people/persons, and I'm sure the Orokin had such technology.

 

Furthermore though, the Orokin sample size would have been comparatively small, especially to maintain control, whereas a supposedly civilian ship of unknown size running foul of the Void...significantly higher population sizes, perfectly suitable for experimentation and research and relatively cost effective and liability proof; 'accidents' happen whereas a batch of elite, perfectly made clones? Little harder to brush off as 'nothing'.

 

The Corpus obsession with the Tenno stops at the Warframes as merchandise. Advanced combat armour using exotic components makes them a large amount of money sold off, piece by piece. It's possible they had more involvement, but the only thing that currently matters is how many Credits they can squeeze out of dismembered Tenno.

 

The Grineer, on the other hand, whilst potentially being of the lower classes to begin with, are more interested using whatever they can to extend and expand their own dominion over the Origin System. Restoring themselves only so far as they can march on stronger than ever to the domination of the Solar System. It's admittedly what Vor's grand plans seem to have been with the Tenno in Vor's Prize; get them back, take their intact DNA, use it to breed a new race of supreme Grineer. Remember that we've had it confirmed that the Grineer cloning technology is basically a glorified genetic blender...not a nice way to go.

 

However, again, I admit I could be wrong.

 

I'm just doing my best to infer on the information provided, to create a cohesive and plausible narrative.

[Kidkilla]

Without feedback, you can never improve.

[Blakrana]

Er...mind clarifying there? I mean...yes it's a good point but are you suggesting that by cloning themselves, the Orokin could get feedback on their theoretical models?

[Archangelzz]

After reading all the 'primes' codex entries, I think Tenno are basically clones of the Orokin who, if we're using Dark Sector as the basis of Warframe history are those humans that could control the technolyte virus and bend it to their will thus becoming transhuman, with the final aim of becoming post human. The Tenno were created to be the hand as it were, of the Orokin, but in their hubris, who did the Orokin use as their basis? I also think the Corpus had a hand in their creation as they seem awfully interested in how the Tenno tick.

As for the Grineer, they represent the the decendents on the peon class, those humans that came under the original Orokin banner at the start of the spread of the technolyte virus for protection. As a result they were spared the worst and I think the Orokin ensured they produced whatever antiviral a were needed. But when the Tenno, destroyed the Orokin they were forced to look at alternatives, one of which was cloning of those that were more infection immune. As more fell to infection, the gene pool shrunk and we now have the Grineer, who want access to the void and Orokin tech to reinvigorate themselves.

I think it was stated that the corpus were created after the fall from the remaining merchants and company like people that were left and that the grinner actually came from somewhere else entirely not sure I'll have to check but pretty sure that is what it said.

[Archangelzz]

Your response is fair, although strictly speaking that's the other way things can work; a form of advanced bio-armour that doesn't necessarily care for the physical form of the wearer, if any of them can be worn by any Tenno. The 'like Ironman' sort of view struggles though, considering that every Warframe has a distinct physical build, none of them overlapping, whereas all of Iron Man's various suits are designed to fit him or someone of similar build. Not saying it's impossible for DE to just say 'Warframes use hammer space so anyone can wear them', but I admit I personally find that a little dull if that is the case.

 

Again, when we have Warframes like Valkyr with metal cylinders embedded into their arms, just 'taking it off' seems somewhat difficult to approach from a conventional way of wearing something. The Tenno may have been human, but they're definitely at least Transhuman once they are involved with the Warframe armour.

 

As it is the case for Tenno being able to interchange between any Warframe, regardless of physical stature or gender traits, makes it somewhat plausible to consider that the Orokin created the Warframes to be more 'inhabited' than 'worn' like we would think of them. Orokin science has been shown to be a mixture of technological items, organic items and for later, definitely Tenno related research, Void based items.

 

Considering we don't know what the Void is necessarily, there's actually no standing evidence that you have to have a physical body to manifest Void powers. Arguably, Corrupted Vor is an example of just that, seeing as he is explicitly energy now. Right now, it seems reasonable that Pure Void energy, like Vor seems to be channelling, is expressed neutrally with the user 'colouring' it, making the Warframes a very specialised lens, as Vor states, to 'shape your furious light'. His metaphor does have a measure of credence based on what we know.

 

At any rate, we'll just have to see I guess. Eventually, someone's getting Jossed and there's no point not having a bit of fun with existing lore until that happens.

 

In regards to Hayden

 

He actually found the Proto-Excalibur suit, the Technocyte only turning his right arm and most of his right torso metallic, other than the Glaive powers and some degree of power copying. There's some connection, certainly, however the time difference between darkSector and Warframe makes much more than 'legendary influence' unlikely. Possible, but unlikely.

Well we do know for sure that the void defies logic and reason as that is stated in the codex we can assume it works in ways that are beyond the Orokins understanding kind of like the Black hole is for us its a place that sucks everything into it even light but yet we have no clue were exactly everything inside of it goes or if it is just infinite just like space is. We know to a extent what it is capable of but not its full extent.

 

As for the Hayden suit that was an early version of the virus we can guess that by the time the Orokin got a hold of it or re-created it, it was refined and evolved into what it is now. So instead of like it was where it would take one person who could bond with it sort of like Alice and the T-Virus and in our universes case Hayden with the Technocyte and strength them into super weapons. It just devours everything because in the codex it states that even the Tenno and their warframes were infected and had to be put down. And in the Excalibur codex it states that the tenno were not so much affected with the Virus but rather actual void energy and that they possible used the Virus itself to create a sort of bio metallic armor that can contain the energy and channel it. my example comes straight from the codex.

 

In our desperation we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed. We took the twisted few that had returned from that place. We built a frame around them, a conduit of their affliction. Gave them the weapons of the old ways. Gun and blade. A new warrior, a new code was born. These rejects, these Tenno, became our saviors. Warrior-Gods cast in steel and fury striking our enemies in a way they could never comprehend.

 

It seems like unprotected contact did something to them it afflicted them in what seems like a manner similar to Alice and Haydens reaction to their respected Viruses strengthening them but in the Tennos case it seems like they were filled with void energy and the warframe was a conduit and a way to use or channel the destructive and corrupting energy and the armor the warframes themselves were created using the virus to create a bio metallic armor that can contain and channel the void energy. Which would make sense because the virus affects organic and non organic matter and changes it into a sort of metallic bio substance and the tenno bond with this.

 

As for how they are able to change from female and male warframes or warframes of various sizes maybe that don't exactly have a gender like maybe they can change their body shape and gender to accommodate the warframes themselves or maybe the warframes trigger the change while they are inside going from big to small and male to female.

[Archangelzz]

It's arguably not that hard to imagine. Even today, all the great people of power are mostly a handful of people, hence all the stringent security measures for things like the G20 summit. History has tales of how by killing the leader of an opposing army of greater size, the smaller force won the battle through damaging morale.

 

If someone publicly and suddenly killed all the world leaders and their immediate attendants in a single stroke, the resulting chaos would exacerbate the damage, compounded further as additional attacks are performed. What I feel needs to be taken into account is that Stalker is describing something that was painful for him to witness; he cuts his account short because the extent of time it took to fully destroy the Empire, is irrelevant to the fact that the Terminus Incident was where it started. It's rather common, least in my experience, for someone to 'abbreviate' a traumatic experience, especially when talking to someone they're not comfortable with.

 

The most efficient method of warfare is to destroy the leadership structure; without the head, the body dies.

 

As a possible way of understanding events, of course.

 

 

Admittedly, I'm not sure so much on how far back the Grineer and Corpus go. It is possible that the Technocyte is an outside force, however it is like you say likely the Orokin elite were transhumans through some means or other, potentially the Technocyte and control. It is worth noting that at no point has a cure for Technocyte ever been implied or considered as a possibility, and Mercy Killing is not a cure, only a response.

 

However, if the Tenno were indeed clones of the Orokin, it'd be easy then for DE to just give a general male/female appearance and build it up from there, resolving the debate. It's also worth noting that the power the Orokin elite may have wielded could have been something they'd have been loathe to grant access to some means of clones; Bioshock rather happily shows the problems with genetic locks coded to certain people/persons, and I'm sure the Orokin had such technology.

 

Furthermore though, the Orokin sample size would have been comparatively small, especially to maintain control, whereas a supposedly civilian ship of unknown size running foul of the Void...significantly higher population sizes, perfectly suitable for experimentation and research and relatively cost effective and liability proof; 'accidents' happen whereas a batch of elite, perfectly made clones? Little harder to brush off as 'nothing'.

 

The Corpus obsession with the Tenno stops at the Warframes as merchandise. Advanced combat armour using exotic components makes them a large amount of money sold off, piece by piece. It's possible they had more involvement, but the only thing that currently matters is how many Credits they can squeeze out of dismembered Tenno.

 

The Grineer, on the other hand, whilst potentially being of the lower classes to begin with, are more interested using whatever they can to extend and expand their own dominion over the Origin System. Restoring themselves only so far as they can march on stronger than ever to the domination of the Solar System. It's admittedly what Vor's grand plans seem to have been with the Tenno in Vor's Prize; get them back, take their intact DNA, use it to breed a new race of supreme Grineer. Remember that we've had it confirmed that the Grineer cloning technology is basically a glorified genetic blender...not a nice way to go.

 

However, again, I admit I could be wrong.

 

I'm just doing my best to infer on the information provided, to create a cohesive and plausible narrative.

I don't think the tenno are clones it has never been said though so I could be wrong, my reason for thinking that there were not many orokin and that they were not organic is because the fact that the tenno were able to take them out so quickly and what happened at terminus was more of a slaughter then a battle and because of what is said in the stalkers codex.

 

The Tenno appeared at the Terminus, gleaming and victorious. Our cold and gold Emperors, (breathless), bathed you in savior's silk. Then came the sound. Across all our worlds, all at once, the ceremonial Naga drums. A royal salute to the honored Tenno. Ten solemn beats to declare the suffering was over. I watched from a distance, with the rest of the low Guardians. With each beat terror began to crush my throat. The Tenno were not stoic and silent. They were waiting. They were poised. I tried to call out but only a strangled whisper escaped.

When the ninth beat rang a torrent of blood filled the stadium, loosed by Tenno blades. The drums, the Empire, fell silent forever.

 

He makes it sound like this was happening not just at terminus but across every single orokin world and all at once in one swift stroke they killed everyone. And it sounds like the Orokin were not organic but rather some sort of android that was capable of human emotion and thought so maybe half organic half robotic I don't know. But I think the bigger question is why did they do it? maybe the orokin were not the good guys we think they were and the tenno realized this? it would make sense since the Tenno themselves have always stood for justice, honor and protecting the weak I will be most interested in finding out though.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Archangelzz

[Blakrana]

-snip-

 

Technocyte is more of an intermediary. It possesses the trait to channel and direct energy, both in darkSector and in Warframe, such as with the Ancients and their auras or Tenno powers through a Warframe. The only effect is has is the mutation of the subject into a distinct form, whilst the Void is another realm entirely.

 

As for the whole 'swapping gender', that's admittedly covered in my main post: The Warframes are the whole body, and the gender traits are just part of making them human enough to reinforce the association for the operator that they're human themselves. All Tenno move between Warframes are their consciousness.

 

Whether this consciousness perceives itself as inherently gendered or not is uncertain, and whether it has a normal body is unknown and potentially not the case considering the context of cryosleep and awakening in a Warframe. The mind is preserved with a suitable body, but the original body? Lost.

 

-snip-

 

It's honestly a mixture of poetic turn of phrase and sheer pragmatism. On the one hand, Stalker cuts the story short because he's talked about all that mattered to him. On the other, yes, practically speaking destroying the Orokin Empire would not be a one incident affair. But a synchronised execution across the entire Origin System using the Naga Drum beat to time it? Genius, really.

 

However, they can't have logistically killed every single person in the Orokin Empire. Rather, they simply killed the Orokin elite, the lords and rulers of an otherwise human empire. The survivors had a choice of run for their lives or die trying to challenge the most dangerous warriors in existence.

 

As for why they did it, I discussed the issue a while ago here and, whilst I may amend a few details, namely including the possibility the Posthuman state could have been forced upon the Tenno, the basic argument is coherent enough to still hold I believe.

[Archangelzz]

 

Technocyte is more of an intermediary. It possesses the trait to channel and direct energy, both in darkSector and in Warframe, such as with the Ancients and their auras or Tenno powers through a Warframe. The only effect is has is the mutation of the subject into a distinct form, whilst the Void is another realm entirely.

 

As for the whole 'swapping gender', that's admittedly covered in my main post: The Warframes are the whole body, and the gender traits are just part of making them human enough to reinforce the association for the operator that they're human themselves. All Tenno move between Warframes are their consciousness.

 

Whether this consciousness perceives itself as inherently gendered or not is uncertain, and whether it has a normal body is unknown and potentially not the case considering the context of cryosleep and awakening in a Warframe. The mind is preserved with a suitable body, but the original body? Lost.

 

 

It's honestly a mixture of poetic turn of phrase and sheer pragmatism. On the one hand, Stalker cuts the story short because he's talked about all that mattered to him. On the other, yes, practically speaking destroying the Orokin Empire would not be a one incident affair. But a synchronised execution across the entire Origin System using the Naga Drum beat to time it? Genius, really.

 

However, they can't have logistically killed every single person in the Orokin Empire. Rather, they simply killed the Orokin elite, the lords and rulers of an otherwise human empire. The survivors had a choice of run for their lives or die trying to challenge the most dangerous warriors in existence.

 

As for why they did it, I discussed the issue a while ago here and, whilst I may amend a few details, namely including the possibility the Posthuman state could have been forced upon the Tenno, the basic argument is coherent enough to still hold I believe.

All good points and I was not suggesting that they destroyed the entire empire but like you said just the Orokin lords themselves and by killing them the leaders you cripple and destroy the empire. And I did actually state in another post that I thought the warframes were created using the virus in its construction in order to help contain and regulate the energy which goes with what you were saying about it having the ability to direct energy. As for the whole gender warframe thing I honestly do think that there is a body inside of them I mean we do know that the tenno do in fact have bodies my reason for this is the fact that when in defense missions and rescue missions the tenno we defend and save are in fact living breathing human beings or a humanoid race also vor seems to believe that there is a human body inside the suits. and the warframes according to grineer engineers are made up of nano technology.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Archangelzz

[Blakrana]

Whilst it is a reasonable argument, technically speaking, if Defence targets or Rescue targets were necessarily Tenno, then DE could simply say 'this is what Tenno look like without a Warframe'. The fact that as far as I know they haven't officially declared Rescue or Defence folks, as Tenno without their Warframes, leaves room to question that assertion.

 

As it stands, currently it is not impossible that the Defence objects are merely in use by former allies of the Tenno. Their lack of a Warframe is why the Lotus can't just force the pod to wake them up; it'd potentially kill them whilst there's so much danger in the environment. Not to nitpick, but without a 'these are Tenno' strictly confirmed, we may just be rescuing/recovering former agents of the Lotus.

 

In terms of the physical body, it again comes to an awkward point that there's a lot of difficulty to explain how an average sized human male or female can wear the entire assorted line up of Warframes, especially when some of them have less than average human builds, like Nekros. On the one hand, I suppose people can argue that Warframes would use some sort of built in Hammer Space to let a wearer fit into them regardless of size, but that's neither a) a necessarily established technology at this time and b) logistically bizarre.

 

Think about it for a moment, that something that appears form fitting is actually extending further along the X, Y and Z dimensions for the wearer inside. Even if that makes them physically taller or shorter inside than they are out of it...there'd be a disconnect in motions without some sort of additional requirement for compensating systems. Not impossible, but it's incredibly technologically intensive I suspect to manifest a stable 'Hammer Space' technology for a personal battle suit/armour.

 

Comparatively, creating a body that a person can simply exchange through the swapping of a consciousness is no less unlikely, and may be more practical; enemies may assume a weak human body that can be tortured, the Posthuman design would deny that risk as the Tenno would die with the Warframe, avoiding the risk of losing valuable information. It's a fairly human thing to think that things are physically akin to what we know and won't change, and yet, if the mind or 'soul' could be contained as data and moved between a variety of hosts, the human condition and potential would be exponentially expanded. There is the possibility that the Capture Targets we 'acquire' are forcefully reduced to a non-embodied state, being only a mind as data and data is possible to simply sift through. Something to consider.

 

Hence the beliefs of the Corpus or Grineer about the nature of Tenno and their Warframes are built on a context they seem most familiar with. The notion that Warframes are involved with nanotechnology is rather logical, seeing as the Technocyte material we acquire, Nano Spores and Plastids particularly, imply or make direct reference to 'nanites'. 

[Archangelzz]

Whilst it is a reasonable argument, technically speaking, if Defence targets or Rescue targets were necessarily Tenno, then DE could simply say 'this is what Tenno look like without a Warframe'. The fact that as far as I know they haven't officially declared Rescue or Defence folks, as Tenno without their Warframes, leaves room to question that assertion.

 

As it stands, currently it is not impossible that the Defence objects are merely in use by former allies of the Tenno. Their lack of a Warframe is why the Lotus can't just force the pod to wake them up; it'd potentially kill them whilst there's so much danger in the environment. Not to nitpick, but without a 'these are Tenno' strictly confirmed, we may just be rescuing/recovering former agents of the Lotus.

 

In terms of the physical body, it again comes to an awkward point that there's a lot of difficulty to explain how an average sized human male or female can wear the entire assorted line up of Warframes, especially when some of them have less than average human builds, like Nekros. On the one hand, I suppose people can argue that Warframes would use some sort of built in Hammer Space to let a wearer fit into them regardless of size, but that's neither a) a necessarily established technology at this time and b) logistically bizarre.

 

Think about it for a moment, that something that appears form fitting is actually extending further along the X, Y and Z dimensions for the wearer inside. Even if that makes them physically taller or shorter inside than they are out of it...there'd be a disconnect in motions without some sort of additional requirement for compensating systems. Not impossible, but it's incredibly technologically intensive I suspect to manifest a stable 'Hammer Space' technology for a personal battle suit/armour.

 

Comparatively, creating a body that a person can simply exchange through the swapping of a consciousness is no less unlikely, and may be more practical; enemies may assume a weak human body that can be tortured, the Posthuman design would deny that risk as the Tenno would die with the Warframe, avoiding the risk of losing valuable information. It's a fairly human thing to think that things are physically akin to what we know and won't change, and yet, if the mind or 'soul' could be contained as data and moved between a variety of hosts, the human condition and potential would be exponentially expanded. There is the possibility that the Capture Targets we 'acquire' are forcefully reduced to a non-embodied state, being only a mind as data and data is possible to simply sift through. Something to consider.

 

Hence the beliefs of the Corpus or Grineer about the nature of Tenno and their Warframes are built on a context they seem most familiar with. The notion that Warframes are involved with nanotechnology is rather logical, seeing as the Technocyte material we acquire, Nano Spores and Plastids particularly, imply or make direct reference to 'nanites'. 

Well that is the thing all warframes are equiped with some sort of energy self destruct to avoid torture I am going to assume that the sentients were not able to crack it. And then we have Alad who did somehow find a way thus valkyr was born due to torture though it is unknown what warframe she was before hand. I'm with you though on the fact that the warframes are mostly made up of the virus together with other components to create a bio metallic armor capable or containing, channeling an directing the energy within the tenno themselves.

 

The interesting thing is that the codex relates to kind of both of our theories

 

mine that there is indeed a fully functioning body inside the warframe because in the Excalibur codex is says that the tenno had physical bodies and were afflicted by the void so the Orokin built a frame ( around them ) to contain and channel said energy.

 

and also yours where you think there is simply a consciousness inside the warframe which could quite entirely be true seeing how the orokin themselves were possible like an andriod or some sort of mix of machine and organic components like the andriod rommy from andromeda she had a human appearance, emotions, thought ect but retained a metallic body. Or the Orokin could have been something a completely alien race who knows.

 

As time goes on more lore will be released and we will find out more one thing that does interest me though is the lotus as that lotus symbol was in dark sector as the symbol for the black market and now it belongs to the lotus herself who is possibly working for a secret organization I want to know what the connection is since we know that the two universes are connected and one in the same.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Archangelzz

[Blakrana]

Currently, it is like you say that both sides of the debate are equally valid. The only thing that lends credence to either camp are our inherent biases and reference points that could support or weaken these arguments. Personally, as long as I can engage in a respectful and engaging discussion, I'm not too fussed on who is or is not wrong. Short of DESteve coming in here and saying 'Nope to everything', I'm free to work around the lore as established to construct a narrative or the like that feels plausible. The same, again, goes to everyone else.

 

With regards to the Lotus, it is a strong cultural symbol. The significance of what the use of it may or may not imply is unclear, however with the situation as it stands, it arguably can be inferred that what the Lotus, as an organisation, represents a possible set of ideals. Values that, whatever crimes and sins the Tenno commit, are worth the price. To destroy in order to usher in new life? To restore the old? Whatever the end goal, a Lotus is often considered a symbol of purity contrasting the mire they can be found in.

 

The Lotus could, with that said, simply be an ancient promise for the Tenno, that what they do will bring them to something greater. Something more than just the warrior-god, more than merely human. What that may be is unsure, but by holding the Lotus as the great cultural symbol, knowing the cultural significance that the flower holds in contemporary cultures, leaves many doors open to where the petals lead us along the stream of tomorrow.

[AnonFirefly]

Whilst it is a reasonable argument, technically speaking, if Defence targets or Rescue targets were necessarily Tenno, then DE could simply say 'this is what Tenno look like without a Warframe'. The fact that as far as I know they haven't officially declared Rescue or Defence folks, as Tenno without their Warframes, leaves room to question that assertion.

 

As it stands, currently it is not impossible that the Defence objects are merely in use by former allies of the Tenno. Their lack of a Warframe is why the Lotus can't just force the pod to wake them up; it'd potentially kill them whilst there's so much danger in the environment. Not to nitpick, but without a 'these are Tenno' strictly confirmed, we may just be rescuing/recovering former agents of the Lotus.

 

The pods in the Defense missions are Warframe Cryopods, which would suggest that it is a Tenno in there. Perhaps the reason why the Lotus hasn't woken them up is because they do not have a functional Warframe. The body in there could be body for storage only. Whatever happened in the past caused that Tenno to lose their original Warframe and thus their consciousness was shifted to that body for storage until another could be crafted. For one reason or another, that hadn't happened and they went into cryosleep in their pod. 

 

Maybe those storage bodies acted as an escape route when Tenno were overwhelmed so that they could come back (if they were nearby, since Tenno cannot jump bodies without proximity it seems like what happened in Rhino Prime's codex) or were originally placed there to keep a Tenno's consciousness in a single location to control them (to an extent). Something about those pods is important to the Tenno's wellbeing otherwise they would not all be stored in a giant freezer in Dojos and just be left to rot.

 

I might be going off of a long tangent, but I wanted to hear your thoughts on it. 

[Archangelzz]

Currently, it is like you say that both sides of the debate are equally valid. The only thing that lends credence to either camp are our inherent biases and reference points that could support or weaken these arguments. Personally, as long as I can engage in a respectful and engaging discussion, I'm not too fussed on who is or is not wrong. Short of DESteve coming in here and saying 'Nope to everything', I'm free to work around the lore as established to construct a narrative or the like that feels plausible. The same, again, goes to everyone else.

 

With regards to the Lotus, it is a strong cultural symbol. The significance of what the use of it may or may not imply is unclear, however with the situation as it stands, it arguably can be inferred that what the Lotus, as an organisation, represents a possible set of ideals. Values that, whatever crimes and sins the Tenno commit, are worth the price. To destroy in order to usher in new life? To restore the old? Whatever the end goal, a Lotus is often considered a symbol of purity contrasting the mire they can be found in.

 

The Lotus could, with that said, simply be an ancient promise for the Tenno, that what they do will bring them to something greater. Something more than just the warrior-god, more than merely human. What that may be is unsure, but by holding the Lotus as the great cultural symbol, knowing the cultural significance that the flower holds in contemporary cultures, leaves many doors open to where the petals lead us along the stream of tomorrow.

Quite true I am curious as to whether or not she was built during the golden age as far as I can tell in regards to technology besides our own she is the most advanced thing out there. She seems to be what looks like a organic computer which is pretty advanced who knows though.

[Blakrana]

Lotus is a mystery. It seems possible that the Tenno and her may be closely linked on the 'state of humanity' scale. But, beyond that, I cannot admittedly hazard a guess.

 

Maybe she is merely an avatar, her real appearance a memory long lost. Maybe she chose this form, eschewing her human life much like the Tenno could have lost/surrendered theirs.

 

All we know is that the Lotus cares for the Tenno. We are the only beings beyond the innocent we may help she cares for. Indeed, Vor's Prize she demonstrates clearly that she'd sooner we take care of ourselves than others; perhaps military pragmatism, perhaps an emotional weakness.

 

Whatever happens, Lotus is their only informant and ally unaffiliated with agendas to serve only a small group.

 

And, perhaps one day, she'll trust us not to run into fire hazards.

[Archangelzz]

Lotus is a mystery. It seems possible that the Tenno and her may be closely linked on the 'state of humanity' scale. But, beyond that, I cannot admittedly hazard a guess.

 

Maybe she is merely an avatar, her real appearance a memory long lost. Maybe she chose this form, eschewing her human life much like the Tenno could have lost/surrendered theirs.

 

All we know is that the Lotus cares for the Tenno. We are the only beings beyond the innocent we may help she cares for. Indeed, Vor's Prize she demonstrates clearly that she'd sooner we take care of ourselves than others; perhaps military pragmatism, perhaps an emotional weakness.

 

Whatever happens, Lotus is their only informant and ally unaffiliated with agendas to serve only a small group.

 

And, perhaps one day, she'll trust us not to run into fire hazards.

True but I guess we will find out in time.

[hellsing320]

In some ways I agree with this theory but then again it also seems like if the Warframe were bio armour then it would have a slight conscious and be able to make some decisions and also have memories although I believe in the fact that tenno are genetically dissimilar humans changed by the virus and that they actually are chosen themselves by the armour and that all the frames are actually piloted by two different tenno on the same ship a male for a male frame and females for females basically creating a "family the collective clan as the entire extended family and now that I think of it my idea isn't very flushed out so you might disagree abd I'll understand

[Blakrana]

On the grounds that Warframes are bio-armour, yes, I would hazard a guess at a possibility they possess some form of awareness. Typically I view this as the force mainly dealing with the autonomic features; shields, Revive Systems and the like. They can't quite operate fully on their own without a Tenno, perhaps, but they have a mutually beneficial relationship I would suspect.

 

As for the whole 'one guy one girl' thing, somewhat convoluted as not only do the majority of lines/mechanics in the game imply a singular narrative perspective, but it'd also beg the question of why only one can be engaging with events, seeing as you have two perfectly capable Tenno in that concept.

[Teqnologyque]

Interesting... I only read your OP, and a few posts under that, so I don't know if this has been brought up, but what if the Tenno turned on the Orokin because they got set in their niche, and the Orokin were going to take away everything they had worked to build? What if the Tenno got used to the Idea of being the most powerful and feared force in the Galaxy, and felt the Orokin kinda owed them for basically taking their losing-war and completely turning it straight around.

 

If I was a feared and respected Warrior God, I'd certainly be a little non-plussed if I was Forced to go back to a wretched state of half-existence where a simple sneeze could blow someone's (Or my own) head off. Especially if it meant losing all of the hard work I had put into learning everything the Tenno would have had to have worked on; The written language, the Asceticism, the Music, the Elaborate combat and meditation forms, and completely re-learning how to live my life in some of the most basic ways (How many manual doors do you think Rhino destroyed when he was learning to control his strength?)

 

It also fits with my theory that Tenno may recognize certain human holidays, and may even celebrate some of them. I feel that the Tenno would be very into Samhain (As well as offering a possible lore explanation for the "Day of the Dead" Halloween skins), the Pagan celebration that evolved into modern All Hallows Eve, as it revolves around the remembrance and celebration of lives lost in the past year.