Hek, From Amazing To Terrible.

[JBurke]

DE could always add "Choke" mods for shotguns for players to decrease shot spread.

 

Making players sacrifice even more damage just to make it shoot straight or a little further thus negating the whole point of a shotgun still. The only true answer is instead of nerfing them just a little bit (which they needed) they put it on a table, took out a sledgehammer and beat the bloody hell out of every shotgun in the game.

 

The only thing making me keep my HEK is the hope that they at least bring back the medium range to it because I love the darn thing, but right now I can't even shoot a level 20 across a room without needing to take a second shot and it's level 30 with everything from multi-shot to 90% armor piercing bonus.

[GTG3000]

Making players sacrifice even more damage just to make it shoot straight or a little further thus negating the whole point of a shotgun still. The only true answer is instead of nerfing them just a little bit (which they needed) they put it on a table, took out a sledgehammer and beat the bloody hell out of every shotgun in the game.

 

The only thing making me keep my HEK is the hope that they at least bring back the medium range to it because I love the darn thing, but right now I can't even shoot a level 20 across a room without needing to take a second shot and it's level 30 with everything from multi-shot to 90% armor piercing bonus.

 

But you have to agree, choke mod would be semi-awesome pre-7.9

[Zh40]

I don't think anyone in this thread, who is arguing the hek is still great, has tried any of the other shotguns. 

I just got a boar to 30 and potatoed it. and you know what? It's better than the hek. 
That is SAD.

Multi(only 100%), mag cap, ammo pool, AP, damage, and two of whatever mods. I clear rooms with this thing, at distances where the hek would be powerless.  The range has been nerfed too hard for the hek. When the BOAR starts looking good as a weapon, DE did something wrong. 
 

[Enlil]

Diversity of weaponry is one thing, but if you've actually seen how they mutilated the HEK to the point where it's basically a clown's weapon is just ridiculous. Haven't you noticed all the pellets making contact but doing close to nil damage? It's not a sawed-off shotgun, for crying out loud. Heck, even a sawed-off would be more effective.

Sure, having more co-operation would be pretty cool, but doing it this way is just dumb.

My bucket of freshly made popcorn pops harder than the Hek atm.

[Einsig_SV]

Shotguns are supposed to be effective in short range, not long range. If not, what are the snipers for?

 

Most shotguns are effective up to 30 meters in real life, with 40 not entirely unlikely with a good long-barrel shotgun. Magnum shells and a top-end consumer shotgun can easily get to 70 or more.

 

The Hek during this nerf was only effective to maybe a third of a bargain-bin real life shotgun you can get from a corner gun store.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Ion_Sig

[Zh40]

 

 

Most shotguns are effective up to 30 meters in real life, with 40 not entirely unlikely with a good long-barrel shotgun.

 

I don't understand why we cant have this for shotguns, (40 for the hek maybe?) and have most of the rifles last further than 50m. it would make plenty of sense.. 

[GTG3000]

I don't understand why we cant have this for shotguns, (40 for the hek maybe?) and have most of the rifles last further than 50m. it would make plenty of sense.. 

 

Because everyone else is doing it otherwise, hurr durr.

Ahem, sorry.

Making rifles do well at long ranges will automatically make them all seem slightly OP in close-quarters. Also, nerfing is easier than tweaking.

My bucket of freshly made popcorn pops harder than the Hek atm.

 

Careful. Or they will nerf your POPCORN!

Edited April 28, 2013 by GTG3000

[Meltina]

Speaking of melee range. Its usualy considered what you can apporach in swing in an instant so it does cover the step in and lunge. In warframe we can easily count the time to charge your weapon for a swing. Which is very close to the 10 meter fall off range if you have a fast frame. So melee range is much longer than the 2 meter swing range while standing still.

 

Slash dash is a melee attack as its a charging swing.

 

It has a range of 28 meters.

 

Melee range for excalibur is 28 meters.

 

Shotguns hit minimum damage at less than 60% of melee range for excalibur.

[Klaww]

Speaking of melee range. Its usualy considered what you can apporach in swing in an instant so it does cover the step in and lunge. In warframe we can easily count the time to charge your weapon for a swing. Which is very close to the 10 meter fall off range if you have a fast frame. So melee range is much longer than the 2 meter swing range while standing still.

 

Slash dash is a melee attack as its a charging swing.

 

It has a range of 28 meters.

 

Melee range for excalibur is 28 meters.

 

Shotguns hit minimum damage at less than 60% of melee range for excalibur.

Careful they'll nerf the melee 

[MilesCadre]

 

 

Most shotguns are effective up to 30 meters in real life, with 40 not entirely unlikely with a good long-barrel shotgun.

 

So why can I put 6 inch groupings on a wooden target 100 yards away with my 500A? Shotguns are alot more efficient than you think.

 

Whats hilarious is that I'm viewed as defending shotguns when I absolutely hate em.

[GTG3000]

So why can I put 6 inch groupings on a wooden target 100 yards away with my 500A? Shotguns are alot more efficient than you think.

 

Whats hilarious is that I'm viewed as defending shotguns when I absolutely hate em.

 

Maybe you're awesome with shotgun to the point of spiritual singularity, that makes your buck fly true and not disband like a teen rockband.

Or maybe this game doesn't have quite enough places to make 100 yard-accurate shotgun seem like one when compared to rifles.

[MilesCadre]

Maybe you're awesome with shotgun to the point of spiritual singularity, that makes your buck fly true and not disband like a teen rockband.

Or maybe this game doesn't have quite enough places to make 100 yard-accurate shotgun seem like one when compared to rifles.

Nah I just know when to go shooting (IE minimal winds), use magnum rounds (higher charge with good wadding promotes tighter spread) and the 500A is just a darn good shotgun.

 

But its irrelevant. any weapon can be made effective at most reasonable ranges if you use it right. I know a guy who can tube shoot a 12 guage slug 200 yards.

[GTG3000]

Nah I just know when to go shooting (IE minimal winds), use magnum rounds (higher charge with good wadding promotes tighter spread) and the 500A is just a darn good shotgun.

 

But its irrelevant. any weapon can be made effective at most reasonable ranges if you use it right. I know a guy who can tube shoot a 12 guage slug 200 yards.

 

Guess then tenno found themselves out of good ammo then? 

I don't argue that weapons IRL are much more efficient (not to mention that there's not a single man on earth, that can take a facefull of lead and survive). I'm just saying that, while tighter spread would be more realistic and awesome, with ranges the game presents it would make shotguns massively more poweful than rifles in general...

[The_Diabetes]

Why do people keep posting garbage like shotguns can hit 200 yards irl? Sniper rifles can hit over 1000 yards irl. Do we have any situation where we are shooting people 1000 yards away in game? Hell no. Not even close. 50m is about as far as it gets in game. So if 50m is gonna be the extreme range in this game. Shotguns can't come even close to that range or we hit the point where using "this weapon is good at long range to describe rifles/pistols" has no merit in the game.

 

Why is this hard to understand?

[Panzermeido]

Why do people keep posting garbage like shotguns can hit 200 yards irl? Sniper rifles can hit over 1000 yards irl. Do we have any situation where we are shooting people 1000 yards away in game? Hell no. Not even close. 50m is about as far as it gets in game. So if 50m is gonna be the extreme range in this game. Shotguns can't come even close to that range or we hit the point where using "this weapon is good at long range to describe rifles/pistols" has no merit in the game.

 

Why is this hard to understand?

Because the game isn't a shooting range. You fight against armed enemies who attack at distance. The current problem with Hek and the shotgun groove is that you can't return fire in most scenarios - thus, you're forced to close in, losing more time and making more effort to kill an enemy than a rifleman does at any distance.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Panzermeido

[MilesCadre]

Guess then tenno found themselves out of good ammo then? 

I don't argue that weapons IRL are much more efficient (not to mention that there's not a single man on earth, that can take a facefull of lead and survive). I'm just saying that, while tighter spread would be more realistic and awesome, with ranges the game presents it would make shotguns massively more poweful than rifles in general...

 

Oh I'm not proposing the shotguns be effective at this range. Please dont make me dig out my suggestions again...

Why do people keep posting garbage like shotguns can hit 200 yards irl? Sniper rifles can hit over 1000 yards irl. Do we have any situation where we are shooting people 1000 yards away in game? Hell no. Not even close. 50m is about as far as it gets in game. So if 50m is gonna be the extreme range in this game. Shotguns can't come even close to that range or we hit the point where using "this weapon is good at long range to describe rifles/pistols" has no merit in the game.

 

Why is this hard to understand?

50m wouldnt be the extreme, that would probably be mid range. Usually, we like ot think 100m is long, 50 is mid, 25 is close, and anything below 15 is melee/point blank.

 

But to refresh peeps memory cuz I feel some people are shovin words in my mouth;

 

 

 

Gorgon; Gorgon was one of my favorite weapons because of the ability to use it in many roles. It didnt surpass any weapon in any role (aside from RoF), but was definitely a great universal weapon. Sure, it was as accurate as a Latron, but Latron does a higher base damage than Gorgon. Sure, it had that higher rate of fire, but before that awesome RoF was achieved, it had a spool up time. The Wind Down period is, in my honest opinion, a welcome addition to Gorgon. The loss of its accuracy, however, is not.

 

Shotguns. Oh boy shotguns. This is the huge debate of the century, isnt it? "Shotguns should be Short Range burst weapons!" "But IRL Shotguns are accurate up to 100+M!" This is where we need to break from both reality and generic mindsets and have Warframe set the new standard on how shotguns should be implemented in games. Not as 100+M Snipers (Like Hek), or ohk weapons at 50+m, but as reasonably accurate weapons with reasonable range.

Personally, I think Boar should have a damage drop off beginning at 35m, and it be a sharp damage drop off. The higher RoF compensates for the lower damage and shorter range, and would reenforce boar's initial role of being Crowd Control.

Strun should have a 45-50m range with a sharp damage falloff, and a wide spread at 50+m. This reenforces Struns nice "In The Middle" philosophy, and will allow strun to take on more roles as a primary weapon.

Hek is the interesting one. The description for Hek reads; "The HEK is a powerful shotgun that fires its shots with a tight spread, making it efficient at medium range as long as its strong recoil is properly managed". That being said, I feel the effective range should be 60-70m, but maintaining the tightest spread of all 3 shotguns, to reinforce the role hek was made for; Medium Range. Also, Like the other 2, Hek should have a sharp damage drop off after said range.

Now why the sharp damage dropoff? Partially because youre firing small pellets with low mass which lose their velocity rapidly. As we all know; MxV^2="Damage" (Mass x Velocity^2) So after said range, the pellets will have lost so much energy (Or damage if you prefer), that they just dont carry on much further.

[Katakuna]

Because the game isn't a shooting range. You fight against armed enemies who attack at distance. The current problem with Hek and the shotgun groove is that you can't return fire in most scenarios - thus, you're forced to close in, losing more time and making more effort to kill an enemy than a rifleman does at any distance.

 

That's what shotgun users do in any shooter game.  That's the role of shotguns, close quarters combat.

 

The only other game, in my experience, where I can kill someone from a fair distance away with a shotgun is TF2.  And TF2 is silly.

[Enlil]

Why do people keep posting garbage like shotguns can hit 200 yards irl? Sniper rifles can hit over 1000 yards irl. Do we have any situation where we are shooting people 1000 yards away in game? Hell no. Not even close. 50m is about as far as it gets in game. So if 50m is gonna be the extreme range in this game. Shotguns can't come even close to that range or we hit the point where using "this weapon is good at long range to describe rifles/pistols" has no merit in the game.

 

Why is this hard to understand?

Your main gear has got to be terrible, if u dont see the mobs on a bigger distance than those 50 ingame meters :( Actually able to shoot at you!

[The_Diabetes]

In what game is 100m long range? Because it sure isn't this one. Combat further than 50m almost never happens in this game.

[GTG3000]

In what game is 100m long range? Because it sure isn't this one. Combat further than 50m almost never happens in this game.

 

It is situational for sure, but there's a plenty of places for long-range weapon to shine. True, most of them are in corpus outpost tileset, but other tilesets provide a nice selection of big rooms as well.

Oh I'm not proposing the shotguns be effective at this range. Please dont make me dig out my suggestions again...

50m wouldnt be the extreme, that would probably be mid range. Usually, we like ot think 100m is long, 50 is mid, 25 is close, and anything below 15 is melee/point blank.

 

But to refresh peeps memory cuz I feel some people are shovin words in my mouth;

 

I'm not putting words in your mouth, kind sir, I merely keep the conversation going so that this thread, that has many great ideas repeated over and over, survives for DE to look at.

Edited April 28, 2013 by GTG3000

[Panzermeido]

That's what shotgun users do in any shooter game.  That's the role of shotguns, close quarters combat.

 

The only other game, in my experience, where I can kill someone from a fair distance away with a shotgun is TF2.  And TF2 is silly.

Give Payday: The Heist a try.

"Any shooter game" isn't "CoD". Warframe isn't "any shooter game" either, it's a PvE game.

Seriously, give Payday: The Heist a try.

 

And CQC isn't melee. CQC is 25-30 meters. "Excelling in" doesn't mean "Limited to", and that's what it is now.

[Katakuna]

Give Payday: The Heist a try.

"Any shooter game" isn't "CoD". Warframe isn't "any shooter game" either, it's a PvE game.

Seriously, give Payday: The Heist a try.

 

And CQC isn't melee. CQC is 25-30 meters. "Excelling in" doesn't mean "Limited to", and that's what it is now.

 

Oh dear.

 

I didn't mean to imply that Warframe is similar to CoD, but they are both shooters.  That is undeniable.  I also didn't imply at all that CQC is melee.  Shotguns excel in close quarters, so that is optimally where they should be used.

 

Also, off subject, I wasn't impressed when I played Payday with some friends, so I never bothered to get into it.

[MilesCadre]

In what game is 100m long range? Because it sure isn't this one. Combat further than 50m almost never happens in this game.

100m is about the average length of a tile, if not about 3/4th the length of a open tile. use the waypoint system sometime.

 

I'm not putting words in your mouth, kind sir, I merely keep the conversation going so that this thread, that has many great ideas repeated over and over, survives for DE to look at.

I'ma close on this idea, cuz I know what yer doin and I dont want to stop you.

 

Warframe has the opportunity at this point in time to set the new standard on how Shotguns and weapons in general are implemented. I cant think of a good reason for Warframe to sink into the rut of every other mmofps (third person shooter, whatever).

 

I'm going to have faith that the community nor the devs will not allow Warframe just to fall in with the rest, but rather rise above them and not only be unique, but start a new trend.

 

So let us not waste this opportunity, and let us set the new standard. Not as sniper shotguns, but not as strict close range blasters. But rather finding a nice pliable happy medium.

 

Let us break from the generic and set a new standard.

 

And I bet nobody has read to this point <_<;

[GTG3000]

100m is about the average length of a tile, if not about 3/4th the length of a open tile. use the waypoint system sometime.

 

I'ma close on this idea, cuz I know what yer doin and I dont want to stop you.

 

Warframe has the opportunity at this point in time to set the new standard on how Shotguns and weapons in general are implemented. I cant think of a good reason for Warframe to sink into the rut of every other mmofps (third person shooter, whatever).

 

I'm going to have faith that the community nor the devs will not allow Warframe just to fall in with the rest, but rather rise above them and not only be unique, but start a new trend.

 

So let us not waste this opportunity, and let us set the new standard. Not as sniper shotguns, but not as strict close range blasters. But rather finding a nice pliable happy medium.

 

Let us break from the generic and set a new standard.

 

And I bet nobody has read to this point <_<;

 

I did read to that and I would sign under every word *rises his beermug, full of tea* to unique opportunities we should not waste, my friend!

[MilesCadre]

I did read to that and I would sign under every word *rises his beermug, full of tea* to unique opportunities we should not waste, my friend!

Thats not really Tea! BLASPHEM- *is shot dead*

 

I would like ot blame the Grineer with their super charged Grakatas for my untimely demise. Cuz I could never blame the Corpus. Dem cute blockheads <3

Edited April 28, 2013 by MilesCadre