Hek, From Amazing To Terrible.

[Panzermeido]

I wonder when the devs are going to make a statement, rendering an entire class of weapons useless is kind of a big issue.

Also, shotguns need some sort of range, melee in this game is quite potent already, if they made shotguns only CQC, then there's no point to take up your long gun slot with one. With melee being more potent and ammo conserving, shotguns are rendered innefficient for anything other than comedic value.

The Strun had high damage but was balanced from its slow fire rate and long reload times as well as wide spread.

The BOAR was used for close range burst damage, but you had to reload every 2 secs anyway as well as having a wide spread.

The HEK was the longer range shotty with a relatively small spread, balanced by a smaller clip and less pellets.

People complained because they didn't realize the potential of the rifles as well. Instead of this giant shotty nerf, I'd say buff rifle mods to help give players more of a nudge to use them. Multishot and damage increasing by 15% instead of 20% per level really puts them at a giant disadvantage to shotties and pistols.

Yeah, I agree. Upgrading Point Blank and Hell's Chamber to max is much easier than doing the same with Serration and Split Chamber and is much more effective pure damage-wise. Balancing the mods to provide rifles and sniper rifles with more benefits would've been a great alternative to the current state of events.

Upd.

Come to think of it, that's (or was) the great thing about Hek, isn't it? It's how the narrow cone of fire and Hell's Chamber correlate between each other. Yeah, I'm pretty sure a mod rebalance for rifles would be the best choice right now.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Panzermeido

[breakandburn]

Though I did sink 100,000 credits into upgrading the mods in my Hek a few days ago, I didn't test it yet.

 

I noticed the damage falloff with my unpotatoed level 15 Strun though. Played a Kiliken defense mission in the map with the walkways. I was standing in front of the Cryopod and a Crewman stood on the wall behind the Cryopod. Each pellet hit him for 1 pt of damage. If I can't even shoot across the length of the Cryopod I have to admit that I'm inclined to agree that the falloff is too strong.

 

First impression, but still. An extremely drastic change, that I'm not entirely convinced was needed, if you take level 40+ mobs into account.

[Deost]

You sir have clearly never fired a shotgun in real life.

 

 

Only thing is - he's using a slug..

 

The Hek doesn't use a slug. It has pellets. Though the longer barrel should make it go farther.

 

If anything - The Hek SHOULD go farther then the Strun/Boar.

 

It should be distance = Boar, Strun, Hek - in that order. Not all of them the same.

 

But yeah, it's pretty much made the shotguns nigh useless.

[Ceres666]

Only thing is - he's using a slug..

 

The Hek doesn't use a slug. It has pellets. Though the longer barrel should make it go farther.

 

If anything - The Hek SHOULD go farther then the Strun/Boar.

 

It should be distance = Boar, Strun, Hek - in that order. Not all of them the same.

 

But yeah, it's pretty much made the shotguns nigh useless.

 

Slug vs Shot, i agree, shot spreads out much closer.

 

Still, even at 1/3 the range of a slug, the current damage falloff is far too extreme a change (IMO) from what everyone has been used to :/

[Xriborg]

The Hek needed a nerf to bring it in line with other weapons. I won't make an assumption about the severity of the nerf, because I haven't tried the Hek yet.

 

Perhaps it was too much, perhaps not. Either or, the dev response will be quick. Calm down and stop flipping out. If it's too much, they'll likely fix it sometime next week. If you wanna freak out about something, go play a game like Guild Wars 2 or WoW where sloppy balance can render your whole class ineffective for months at a time.

[neKroMancer]

You sir have clearly never fired a shotgun in real life.

 

 

Slug? Seriously.

 

Learn to find some more compelling evidence.

[EvieTheTenno]

Slug? Seriously.

 

Learn to find some more compelling evidence.

Here's something better:

Edited April 27, 2013 by AresX905

[AlaskanWyvern]

was fun having shotties that behaved you know like shotties, now... its like every other shooter out there you have to shove the barrel down your enemies throat to do more damage then sneezing at them would, damage dropoff would be acceptable if it was at an acceptable range not this, definately needs some tuning on the numbers that or lable shotguns as melee weapons >.>

QFT. Video game shotguns go from firing badgers made of pure pain and explosions at short range, and then at medium range, your pellets turn into marshmallows unable to hurt a fly. Here, I had heartily approved of Warframe for making their shotguns with relatively realistic firing performance. But no, now they're just standard video game shotguns that there was no point in ever inventing - as has been said, a melee weapon with decent reach is more effective at this point.

I guess I'll just go throw away my Boar now, because there's no point in using it.

Edited April 27, 2013 by AlaskanWyvern

[o0sayan0o]

very bad update.. hek is now really useless.

it was fun playing warframe.. time to give a break untill they fix this, cuz no1 is happy with the weapons changes.

cya

Edited April 27, 2013 by o0sayan0o

[Inberun]

have to tried doing a level 50 defense mission with any other weapon than then hek/gorgon/boltor ?  the hek still took 2-3 shots at close range to kill things at that level, now i have to stick my barrel into things to kill them, meaning i cant play any frame unless its tanky if i want to use my hek.

 

the only reason people are calling the hek OP is because they see them in level 10-30 areas just destroying things, but its a very different story at end game, im not saying that range wasnt broken.. but the nerf was to much, My melee weapon  has aoe and does more damage now.

I fought lv100 enemies in Pluto and Hek still can onehit Corpus Crewman and MOA but maybe bc my dmg mods were maxed out (90% AP, 90% Shock, 90% Dmg, 100% Multishot). But im agree the nerf was too much for it, consider its the most accurate shotgun.

[Deost]

Slug vs Shot, i agree, shot spreads out much closer.

 

Still, even at 1/3 the range of a slug, the current damage falloff is far too extreme a change (IMO) from what everyone has been used to :/

 

Yeah. I agree. The current damage falloff is too extreme. Which is why shotguns are useless anymore save as melee weapons.

 

Which I can understand why they did it. To make people use the other weaponry instead of *just* the Hek.

 

But rendering a weapon moot for that sake? Is silly. The best course would have been to nudge the 'sniper' rifles up some to make them viable against it.

 

But I'm sure DE will nudge it back to normal in a day or so.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Well every weapon could one hit kill if givin the right mods, the latron, the braton, the burston. I mean the HEK was meant to be the semi-long range shotty which means high damage, low amount of rounds and pellet spread, even without bullet drop you're still not doing full damage on enemies anyway since not all pellets are sure to hit.

 

No other weapon could OHK as consistently on higher-level content than the Hek. There's no arguing the facts; because of its accuracy and damage, the Hek had the best damage at the best range which in turn gave it the best ammo economy. And since everyone is so keen on forcing the idea that Defense Mission are the standard for a supposed 'end-game' for Warframe that doesn't actually exist at the moment, the Hek was the premier weapon of choice. I say choice in jest; there really was no choice, you brought a Hek or you left.

 

Now that many people have become accustomed to the Hek and it's been brought down to an admittedly unfair level (the damage falloff is too great at the moment), people are complaining and downvotes are soaring.

 

It won't. Hek was great. Overpowered to a large enough degree, yeah, but mostly because the maximal challenge you could face, defense missions not included, was Ambulas at level 56 IIRC. If you push it up to level 70 with bosses going as high as 76-78, the Hek instantly takes the niche of a high-level weapon you only receive at high rank and use to manage the challenge of higher-leveled missions.

Mind you, high rank actually means you took the time to use the weapons that come before Hek. I see no problems with Hek being an upgrade, because sidegrading in a game which is entirely based around DPS and and ammo consumption is impossible. Outright. Instead of making Hek the scapegoat, additional choice should be provided in the "upgrade-tier" category of weapons, which will make the high level battles more versatile and, ultimately, fun. 

 

The Hek wasn't meant to be an upgrade. But because of how broken it was, this gave a large part of the community the illusion that it was meant to be this way, despite DE stating that it was not.

 

Making perfectly balanced sidegrades is indeed extremely difficult, but as it is was the Hek is the only weapon that people turned to as the "best weapon", when it was never meant to be any better than the other shotguns save for situations where its tight pellet spread would be a benefit instead of a detriment. However, the innate problems of having a super-precise weapon with the damage potential of a point-blank shotgun blast broke the weapon. It wasn't meant to be the best weapon, but it became that way, and now DE is trying to fix it so that it is not.

 

Granted, however, I would not mind an upgrade-tier of weapons. It adds progression that we do not currently have, but until DE actually makes weapons that are MEANT to be used as an upgrade to former weapons, current equipment needs to be balanced to be in line with one another. I do not want to be forced to use a Hek in order to actually progress. I'd rather have several options than one obvious one.

[Sikab]

Interesting that IRL a shotguns kill range can reach a 100meter. While in-game i struggle to kill something at 20meter.

[EvieTheTenno]

No other weapon could OHK as consistently on higher-level content than the Hek. There's no arguing the facts; because of its accuracy and damage, the Hek had the best damage at the best range which in turn gave it the best ammo economy. And since everyone is so keen on forcing the idea that Defense Mission are the standard for a supposed 'end-game' for Warframe that doesn't actually exist at the moment, the Hek was the premier weapon of choice. I say choice in jest; there really was no choice, you brought a Hek or you left.

 

Now that many people have become accustomed to the Hek and it's been brought down to an admittedly unfair level (the damage falloff is too great at the moment), people are complaining and downvotes are soaring.

 

 

The Hek wasn't meant to be an upgrade. But because of how broken it was, this gave a large part of the community the illusion that it was meant to be this way, despite DE stating that it was not.

 

Making perfectly balanced sidegrades is indeed extremely difficult, but as it is was the Hek is the only weapon that people turned to as the "best weapon", when it was never meant to be any better than the other shotguns save for situations where its tight pellet spread would be a benefit instead of a detriment. However, the innate problems of having a super-precise weapon with the damage potential of a point-blank shotgun blast broke the weapon. It wasn't meant to be the best weapon, but it became that way, and now DE is trying to fix it so that it is not.

 

Granted, however, I would not mind an upgrade-tier of weapons. It adds progression that we do not currently have, but until DE actually makes weapons that are MEANT to be used as an upgrade to former weapons, current equipment needs to be balanced to be in line with one another. I do not want to be forced to use a Hek in order to actually progress. I'd rather have several options than one obvious one.

Honestly never really found the HEK the best weapon, just used it because it was fun to use.

[CoffeeBlack]

I don't have a fully lvl'd Hek yet, but I agree that it needs some balancing, it doesn't need to allow for sniping from accross the map, but it should allow you to take out Grineer who are mid lvl with about 3 shots without you having to feed it to them first. I mean, it's supposed to be a weapon you earn, as it is one of only 2 that are xp locked and it is the higher of those 2, it also has the highest base damage per shot out of all the weapons in the game. I would keep that in mind when you are looking to rebalance it, as it should do something more than the other guns since you can't get it until you reach a certain Rank accross all of your frames.

[neKroMancer]

Interesting that IRL a shotguns kill range can reach a 100meter. While in-game i struggle to kill something at 20meter.

 

Any evidence? The only cause of death from shotgun at long range (pellet) was from one stray pellet hit the eye and penetrate the orbit in to the brain tissue. Slug may be able to do that but definitely not pellet. Most shots aren't lethal after hitting 30-50 meter range.

Edited April 27, 2013 by neKroMancer

[Sikab]

Any evidence? The only cause of death from shotgun at long range (pellet) was from one stray pellet hit the eye and penetrate the orbit in to the brain tissue. Slug may be able to do that but definitely not pellet. Most shots aren't lethal after hitting 30-50 meter range.

military experience :)

[neKroMancer]

military experience :)

 

Forensic experience says otherwise.

[Sikab]

Forensic experience says otherwise.

Seems like we disagree on this :)

 

But we agree that 20 meters is still a OHK range? ;)

[neKroMancer]

Seems like we disagree on this :)

 

But we agree that 20 meters is still a OHK range? ;)

 

Indeed, 10-20 meter does the job. I once got a case of a patient got shot in the leg with birdshot at 10 meter, all the pellet simply stuck inside her leg tissue. No penetration. If it was buckshot, it would be more devastating. However, it also depends on the choke as well. With full choke or other barrel extension, you could hit someone head at 40-50 meter. 

 

Slug, on the other hand, is awful. Luckily, my country simply has almost no case of slug and thus spare me from putting the decease's head back together to find the trajectory.

[Vermunder]

Yes, it might be disappointing.

But bear in mind that the Devs talked about balancing weapons. If the Hek is so overpowered, the other weapons will be viewed upon as 'useless'. 

Furthermore, this change is realistic. Shotguns are supposed to be effective in short range, not long range. If not, what are the snipers for? You can rage all you want, but dont take it out on the Devs. 

 

P.S. I have a hek and its supercharged too. 

FYI Realistically shotguns don't lose effectiveness until after 40 yards or so.

 

So this update is horses*** all around

[Vermunder]

Any evidence? The only cause of death from shotgun at long range (pellet) was from one stray pellet hit the eye and penetrate the orbit in to the brain tissue. Slug may be able to do that but definitely not pellet. Most shots aren't lethal after hitting 40-70 meter range.

Fix'd

[CoffeeBlack]

Indeed, 10-20 meter does the job. I once got a case of a patient got shot in the leg with birdshot at 10 meter, all the pellet simply stuck inside her leg tissue. No penetration. If it was buckshot, it would be more devastating. However, it also depends on the choke as well. With full choke or other barrel extension, you could hit someone head at 40-50 meter. 

 

Slug, on the other hand, is awful. Luckily, my country simply has almost no case of slug and thus spare me from putting the decease's head back together to find the trajectory.

 

Does it matter, you are arguing about a weapon in a videogame that doesn't exist that is usually being fired in what is most likely lesser gravity from what we are used to based on it either being artificial or being on a celestial body like and asteroid that is nowhere near the mass of the Earth, tragectory and distance are going to be different in space especially when using a weapon that probably has a more advanced firing mechanism and ammunition than something we use today, if you really want to debate it realistically. Not to mention that your average Grineer is wearing heavy duty armor that is probably more advanced than Kevlar and is also bio-enhanced and cybernetically enhanced as well.

 

Remember, never forget what Mass Effect 2 taught us: "Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a $#*(@ in space!"

 

http://youtu.be/sCoHT_cHPzY

 

P.S: New idea for Warframe, Isaac Newton frame, he kills people by dropping knowledge on them.

[Krimstar]

First of all, remove damage drop off as it is a terrible cancer that has been killing shotguns for years, to the point that people actually think that this is how shotguns work. There is nothing fun about doing no damage to something within spitting range.

Secondly, the best way to "balance" the Hek would be to make it fit its role better. We already have the Bronco as the extreme close range high damage sawn-off hand cannon, the Strun as the low-mid range double-barreled super shotgun, and the Boar as the low-mid range automatic DPS machine. What is needed is a mid-long range economy shotgun (classic Doom shotgun), that is what the Hek is supposed to be. The problem is that a fully modded Hek would keep the reliability of its role while having the absurd damage of the super shotgun role. So then the solution would obviously be to reduce the Hek's damage, but then the problem is that it is too weak unless fully modded. So then, Why not try reducing shotgun mods a bit, primarily multi-shot as this is what truly makes the Hek such an outstanding weapon, while improving the Boar and Strun just a bit to compensate?

There are many ways you could go about balancing these weapons, including doing nothing to them and improving alternative weapons (Snipetron!), but the only thing that is absolutely 100% UNACCEPTABLE is causing rounds to fade into the void after a few meters like every other terrible modern shooter.

[Vermunder]

First of all, remove damage drop off as it is a terrible cancer that has been killing shotguns for years, to the point that people actually think that this is how shotguns work. There is nothing fun about doing no damage to something within spitting range.

Secondly, the best way to "balance" the Hek would be to make it fit its role better. We already have the Bronco as the extreme close range high damage sawn-off hand cannon, the Strun as the low-mid range double-barreled super shotgun, and the Boar as the low-mid range automatic DPS machine. What is needed is a mid-long range economy shotgun (classic Doom shotgun), that is what the Hek is supposed to be. The problem is that a fully modded Hek would keep the reliability of its role while having the absurd damage of the super shotgun role. So then the solution would obviously be to reduce the Hek's damage, but then the problem is that it is too weak unless fully modded. So then, Why not try reducing shotgun mods a bit, primarily multi-shot as this is what truly makes the Hek such an outstanding weapon, while improving the Boar and Strun just a bit to compensate?

There are many ways you could go about balancing these weapons, including doing nothing to them and improving alternative weapons (Snipetron!), but the only thing that is absolutely 100% UNACCEPTABLE is causing rounds to fade into the void after a few meters like every other terrible modern shooter.

/thread and issue