Critical Chance Mods Are Effectively Useless

[Webly]

DE apparently wants us to use critical chance mods, Steve said in the recent stream that it'd work well on the Grakata.  Now I tested the Grakata after today's changes, I used a +150% critical chance mods (as high as it goes).

The increase in crits was marginal, and so the total damage increase was too.

Then there's weapons like the Amphis, Dual Ethers, Plasma and Dark Swords, they would benefit ALOT from increasing the amount of crits you get, but you can barely increase crits.

Critical Chance mods in this game seem to be a percent of a percent (for the few who haven't heard), and this just doesn't make for a vast or useful increase in critical hits.

This needs to be changed, the mods either need to increase by larger amounts or be additive (which would require a rework for some of them).

 

Until a change is made, most people will still just add more damage mods including elemental, this doesn't seem to be what DE wants based off their own words and the stats of the weapons listed above.

 

 

Eurhetemec put it best.

 

"I think a lot of people don't really understand the math involved here. Allow me to demonstrate it for you:

 

The Grakata has a 7.5% crit rate and does 200% damage on a crit. It has a base damage of 9. Thus on a crit it does 18 damage.

 

If you have a maxed-out crit rate mod for it, that's +150% chance, so 18.75% chance to crit. As a crit does 200% damage, that's thus a 9.375% increase to the damage you do.

 

That mod would take up 9 points, and would have cost a significant amount to make, in both credits and sheer number of mods used to make it.

 

For a 9.375% increase in damage.

 

Whereas you could get really any other damage mod, and get a far better result. A 9 point Piercing Hit mod is +60% damage (and does more against some targets). Even assuming the game rounds down and ignores fractions, that's an increase from 9 to 14 damage on every shot, which is thus going to be very close to well, a 60% damage increase - probably more in practice given many enemies are vulnerable to that damage type.

 

So I feel like it is quite misleading of DE to suggest that Point Strike (+crit chance) is a good mod for the Grakata. It's better than for some guns, but it isn't very good at all, objectively speaking. In fact, it's extremely poor bang-for-cost.

For the people saying "Oh we need EVERY weapon's crit rate before we can theorycraft", no, you do not. You need the outliers. We have the outliers. The math is extremely simple, as I hope I have shown (I can go into more detail if needed). +Crit chance mods in Warframe are a very bad deal in almost all cases. Even on weapons which have a good crit chance they tend to be a bad deal - a "filler" mod because they are cheap, rather than something you really want. It seems like in the entire game, only Snipetron, which is basically a fairly poor weapon, really benefits from +crit%, and even that isn't really enough to make it into a good weapon.

 

Several melee weapons COULD benefit from it, but the melee +crit chance mod is laughably small (+30% at max), rather than the +100% or more most weapons get (which would actually have some value beyond filler).

 

I agree that we need to see more details on the weapons. Given we have mods that modify such things as crit chance, crit damage, and reload speed, those should really be shown to the player. We don't need to know that to conclude the +crit chance is largely useless/filler for weapons other than Snipetron, though. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to see their math."

Edited April 30, 2013 by Webly

[Mactax]

The critical chance mods are ueful ONLY when you know the exact critical chance on the weapon. Unfortunately the developers (without any particular reason) refuse to give us this information.
It's obvious, that 150% is the increase of the base critical chance, which has the range from 2,5 % to 20% if I am not mistaken. So with this mod you can have from 6,25 to 50% total critical chance. Additionally, as far I noticed, crit. chance is higher when you hit the enemy in their weak spot.

[Webly]

The critical chance mods are ueful ONLY when you know the exact critical chance on the weapon. Unfortunately the developers (without any particular reason) refuse to give us this information.

It's obvious, that 150% is the increase of the base critical chance, which has the range from 2,5 % to 20% if I am not mistaken. So with this mod you can have from 6,25 to 50% total critical chance. Additionally, as far I noticed, crit. chance is higher when you hit the enemy in their weak spot.

And for the melee weapons, the maxed out critical chance mod (true steel) is only 30%.  So 30% of 25 (supposedly plasma sword) is 7.5 + 25 for a total of 32.5% crit chance.  Woop De Doo.

^This is also the HIGHEST crit chance you can get with melee period.  The rest of the melees I listed in the op will be less.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Webly

[MoonicusMaximus]

I actually had the exact opposite thought when I tested my Grakata with a crit chance/crit damage mod combination. I had a noticeably larger increase in crit frequency, and because of the Grakata's innate 200% (assumed) critical damage modifier in comparison to the normal 150%, crit numbers were larger in general.

 

Going through the same mission types (Pluto, Ceres, etc) with the pre-buff Grakata, then the post 7.8 Grakata, revealed that I was using less ammunition overall, due to the supposed increase in damage afforded by critical mods, on roughly the same amounts of enemies. TTK was also visibly lower, save for a seldom occasion where crits did not happen, or were not landed in ideal weak areas.

 

It's hard to say yet, but I would wager a guess that a critical-focused Grakata is now on par with other rifles for its niche. It already wasted enemies in its optimal range quicker than most weapons, and it's great fun to use.

[stacey69]

Glaive does not crit on charge/thrown attack either.

[Mietz]

I don't see a problem.

[Takomancer]

I use a crit chance / damage mod on my dual zoren and it is very noticible. Dual ether on the other hand has high base damage so giving crit chance a buff would make dual zoren useless.

[Tetsmeha]

This also makes crit damage mods super useless. Ash smoke screen is supposed to give guaranteed crits,but it only increases red crit damage. The yellow numbers are just a damage buff

[ZWarhammer]

I agree. The crit chance for melee weapons as it stands is far inferior to raw charge damage increase as most heavy weapons for example Fragor have high charge damage to begin with, compare increasing say 200 base charge damage by 150% and then 25% critical chance by 30% it's by far not as good.

[MilesCadre]

I dont see it being a issue of adding a % of a %.

 

Weapons like the snipetron would see a 50% critical chance after a fully upped point strike (max of 150% bonus, right?)

 

That technically means snipetron will have a 1:2 chance of criticals.

 

I think it'd be ridiculous to have 150%+ critical chances. It'd make it worst than the Monk class on Diablo 3 (Oh yea, I went there.)

 

Anyone who relies on criticals is just asking for trouble. thats my 2 cents.

[Webly]

I dont see it being a issue of adding a % of a %.

 

Weapons like the snipetron would see a 50% critical chance after a fully upped point strike (max of 150% bonus, right?)

 

That technically means snipetron will have a 1:2 chance of criticals.

 

I think it'd be ridiculous to have 150%+ critical chances. It'd make it worst than the Monk class on Diablo 3 (Oh yea, I went there.)

 

Anyone who relies on criticals is just asking for trouble. thats my 2 cents.

 

Currently most crit chance on most weapons remains very low even with the maxed crit chance mods, and the ones that you can increase it up highest on don't benefit from it as much as just adding more flat damage (like maxed serration and elements).

 

I also said that if critical chance mods became additive, some would need a rework.  Melee could pretty much be additive as it is now though since it's so low.

 

Also taking an extreme example like the Snipertron you will be overkilling enemies half the time and leaving them still alive the other.  This guns simply doesn't do enough damage from non-crit shots to justify the crit shots.  So you (overkill) ohko half your shots and the rest require a follow up.  You'd still be better off just maxing the damage of every shot as high as possible and always ohko'ing the trash.  Then you can get into the fact that the Snipertron still is outclassed by nearly every other ranged weapon simply because of the mechanics of this game and the ranges of ALL engagements.  You'll never be outpacing a player with a similar knowledgebase using something like a Lex, Latron, Braton, or even Boltor.  The Snipertron might sound balanced with crits on paper, but would be less useful than maxed flat damage, which still isn't very useful at all.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Webly

[Dasmir]

Grakata and snipetron says HI !

[Geuax]

Grakata and snipetron says HI !

the grakata aprrently has a 7.5% crit chance that isnt even remotely a "crit: gun

[Dasmir]

the grakata aprrently has a 7.5% crit chance that isnt even remotely a "crit: gun

 

7,5 is really hight for the RoF its has also the X2 damage critical hit.

[Geuax]

7,5 is really hight for the RoF its has also the X2 damage critical hit.

percents dont magicly get better because your throwing out more bullets. 

 

 

 hell maxing  out the crit on that pos would get you less boost than to tossing on  a rank 3 hellfire/stormbringer mod

[Story4]

Considering that you have mods like multishot which basically makes the weapon deal double damage with a chance of 20% triple damage, i don't see a problem in making crit chance additive and not multiplicative.

[dEEkAy2k9]

at first, we'd need to know ALL the crit values of ALL weapons. this would make crit-based weapons easier to identify and start theorycrafting.

[VScipii26]

at first, we'd need to know ALL the crit values of ALL weapons. this would make crit-based weapons easier to identify and start theorycrafting.

This.

Everyone is essentially slapping together ideas and some paper-mache advice from DE.

I'd love to see more information on a weapon, especially crit damage and reload speed.

[Eurhetemec]

I think a lot of people don't really understand the math involved here. Allow me to demonstrate it for you:

 

The Grakata has a 7.5% crit rate and does 200% damage on a crit. It has a base damage of 9. Thus on a crit it does 18 damage.

 

If you have a maxed-out crit rate mod for it, that's +150% chance, so 18.75% chance to crit. As a crit does 200% damage, that's thus a 9.375% increase to the damage you do.

 

That mod would take up 9 points, and would have cost a significant amount to make, in both credits and sheer number of mods used to make it.

 

For a 9.375% increase in damage.

 

Whereas you could get really any other damage mod, and get a far better result. A 9 point Piercing Hit mod is +60% damage (and does more against some targets). Even assuming the game rounds down and ignores fractions, that's an increase from 9 to 14 damage on every shot, which is thus going to be very close to well, a 60% damage increase - probably more in practice given many enemies are vulnerable to that damage type.

 

So I feel like it is quite misleading of DE to suggest that Point Strike (+crit chance) is a good mod for the Grakata. It's better than for some guns, but it isn't very good at all, objectively speaking. In fact, it's extremely poor bang-for-cost.

For the people saying "Oh we need EVERY weapon's crit rate before we can theorycraft", no, you do not. You need the outliers. We have the outliers. The math is extremely simple, as I hope I have shown (I can go into more detail if needed). +Crit chance mods in Warframe are a very bad deal in almost all cases. Even on weapons which have a good crit chance they tend to be a bad deal - a "filler" mod because they are cheap, rather than something you really want. It seems like in the entire game, only Snipetron, which is basically a fairly poor weapon, really benefits from +crit%, and even that isn't really enough to make it into a good weapon.

 

Several melee weapons COULD benefit from it, but the melee +crit chance mod is laughably small (+30% at max), rather than the +100% or more most weapons get (which would actually have some value beyond filler).

 

I agree that we need to see more details on the weapons. Given we have mods that modify such things as crit chance, crit damage, and reload speed, those should really be shown to the player. We don't need to know that to conclude the +crit chance is largely useless/filler for weapons other than Snipetron, though. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to see their math.

[MilesCadre]

This obviously isnt a argument I have alot of support in, and apparently the community as a whole sees issues with the current critical chance system.

 

Personally I do not. If you feel that a mod slot is wasted by putting a critical mod in there, by all means dont use said mod.

 

But I personally dont see any issues with how it stands. I cant argue for changes if I dont see problems in the first place.

 

Sorry I dont agree with the OP?

[Webly]

This obviously isnt a argument I have alot of support in, and apparently the community as a whole sees issues with the current critical chance system.

 

Personally I do not. If you feel that a mod slot is wasted by putting a critical mod in there, by all means dont use said mod.

 

But I personally dont see any issues with how it stands. I cant argue for changes if I dont see problems in the first place.

 

Sorry I dont agree with the OP?

Read the post RIGHT above yours.  It is very plainly explained for you.

 

 

"I think a lot of people don't really understand the math involved here. Allow me to demonstrate it for you:

 

The Grakata has a 7.5% crit rate and does 200% damage on a crit. It has a base damage of 9. Thus on a crit it does 18 damage.

 

If you have a maxed-out crit rate mod for it, that's +150% chance, so 18.75% chance to crit. As a crit does 200% damage, that's thus a 9.375% increase to the damage you do.

 

That mod would take up 9 points, and would have cost a significant amount to make, in both credits and sheer number of mods used to make it.

 

For a 9.375% increase in damage.

 

Whereas you could get really any other damage mod, and get a far better result. A 9 point Piercing Hit mod is +60% damage (and does more against some targets). Even assuming the game rounds down and ignores fractions, that's an increase from 9 to 14 damage on every shot, which is thus going to be very close to well, a 60% damage increase - probably more in practice given many enemies are vulnerable to that damage type.

 

So I feel like it is quite misleading of DE to suggest that Point Strike (+crit chance) is a good mod for the Grakata. It's better than for some guns, but it isn't very good at all, objectively speaking. In fact, it's extremely poor bang-for-cost.

For the people saying "Oh we need EVERY weapon's crit rate before we can theorycraft", no, you do not. You need the outliers. We have the outliers. The math is extremely simple, as I hope I have shown (I can go into more detail if needed). +Crit chance mods in Warframe are a very bad deal in almost all cases. Even on weapons which have a good crit chance they tend to be a bad deal - a "filler" mod because they are cheap, rather than something you really want. It seems like in the entire game, only Snipetron, which is basically a fairly poor weapon, really benefits from +crit%, and even that isn't really enough to make it into a good weapon.

 

Several melee weapons COULD benefit from it, but the melee +crit chance mod is laughably small (+30% at max), rather than the +100% or more most weapons get (which would actually have some value beyond filler).

 

I agree that we need to see more details on the weapons. Given we have mods that modify such things as crit chance, crit damage, and reload speed, those should really be shown to the player. We don't need to know that to conclude the +crit chance is largely useless/filler for weapons other than Snipetron, though. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to see their math."

 

Eurhetemec said the above, multiquote got messed up and it's a pain to fix it.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Webly

[Sirabot]

This obviously isnt a argument I have alot of support in, and apparently the community as a whole sees issues with the current critical chance system.

 

Personally I do not. If you feel that a mod slot is wasted by putting a critical mod in there, by all means dont use said mod.

 

But I personally dont see any issues with how it stands. I cant argue for changes if I dont see problems in the first place.

 

Sorry I dont agree with the OP?

There is obviously a problem, if you don't have an issue. Don't post. These people are trying to make this game better.

[Inez]

I think a lot of people don't really understand the math involved here. Allow me to demonstrate it for you:

 

The Grakata has a 7.5% crit rate and does 200% damage on a crit. It has a base damage of 9. Thus on a crit it does 18 damage.

 

If you have a maxed-out crit rate mod for it, that's +150% chance, so 18.75% chance to crit. As a crit does 200% damage, that's thus a 9.375% increase to the damage you do.

 

That mod would take up 9 points, and would have cost a significant amount to make, in both credits and sheer number of mods used to make it.

 

For a 9.375% increase in damage.

 

Whereas you could get really any other damage mod, and get a far better result. A 9 point Piercing Hit mod is +60% damage (and does more against some targets). Even assuming the game rounds down and ignores fractions, that's an increase from 9 to 14 damage on every shot, which is thus going to be very close to well, a 60% damage increase - probably more in practice given many enemies are vulnerable to that damage type.

 

So I feel like it is quite misleading of DE to suggest that Point Strike (+crit chance) is a good mod for the Grakata. It's better than for some guns, but it isn't very good at all, objectively speaking. In fact, it's extremely poor bang-for-cost.

For the people saying "Oh we need EVERY weapon's crit rate before we can theorycraft", no, you do not. You need the outliers. We have the outliers. The math is extremely simple, as I hope I have shown (I can go into more detail if needed). +Crit chance mods in Warframe are a very bad deal in almost all cases. Even on weapons which have a good crit chance they tend to be a bad deal - a "filler" mod because they are cheap, rather than something you really want. It seems like in the entire game, only Snipetron, which is basically a fairly poor weapon, really benefits from +crit%, and even that isn't really enough to make it into a good weapon.

 

Several melee weapons COULD benefit from it, but the melee +crit chance mod is laughably small (+30% at max), rather than the +100% or more most weapons get (which would actually have some value beyond filler).

 

I agree that we need to see more details on the weapons. Given we have mods that modify such things as crit chance, crit damage, and reload speed, those should really be shown to the player. We don't need to know that to conclude the +crit chance is largely useless/filler for weapons other than Snipetron, though. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to see their math.

The one problem with your math is that people just love seeing bigger numbers.  For most people, bigger numbers >> lower dps, even if most of the numbers are smaller.  Its always been this way in videogames that show damage numbers.

[Einsig_SV]

... I don't know about you, but when I put my 120% Pistol gambit on my Twin Viper, my screen started exploding with yellow.

 

We seem to be having a completely different set of experiences.

 

I will agree that melee crit mods are pretty lackluster, but melee mods in general are crap aside from charge mods, Armor Piercing, and fire damage.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Ion_Sig

[Story4]

... I don't know about you, but when I put my 120% Pistol gambit on my Twin Viper, my screen started exploding with yellow.

 

We seem to be having a completely different set of experiences.

 

I will agree that melee crit mods are pretty lackluster, but melee mods in general are crap aside from charge mods, Armor Piercing, and fire damage.

 

Well of course you are seeing more yellow, multishot basically makes you deal twice the damage with a chance to do three times the damage.

 

If you have 10 bullets with a 10% crit chance one of those bullets will be a crit, but if you use multishot then you will shoot 20 bullets, but 2 bullets will crit.

 

If multi-shot increased damage and not the number of bullets fired, you still would have dealt the same damage because the bullet that was supposed to be crit would have dealt double the damage, but you would have had higher number as opposed to more numbers but lower ones.

 

So the only reason you are seeing more crits with multishot is because you shoot more bullets, but there basically is no difference between an 100% multishot and an 100% damage increase except for the fact that you see more numbers with the first, but you see bigger ones with the latter.