The Difficulty Issues

[Xriborg]

The difficulty has been an on and off again issue discussed on this forums. A lot of people complain the game is too difficult, and other complain it's too easy. Having felt both ways about the game, I think they're both right. In my opinion, there are two major factors contributing to the game's difficulty woes.

 

The biggest contributing factor is randomly generated difficulty spikes. These are things like:

 

Enemy spawn rates - Sometimes, the enemy numbers seem quite low and reasonable. Sometimes they seem completely out of control. Massive waves of enemies spawning in front of and behind you, giving you nowhere to go.

Frozen missions - Occasionally, we're forced to go through an entire mission with half of our shields. This one baffles me to be honest.

Inconsistent enemy AI - Sometimes, whole squads of enemies will pick their nose, run around, take cover, and generally just let you shoot them. Other times, enemies will focus fire on you, charge forward and stun you, magically work together as a team to take you out (rarely but I've seen it).

The Stalker - Neat idea, but it's very obviously a random difficulty spike.

 

There are other examples throughout the game, but you get the idea. Now, I like randomly generated events. They're fun, and can create suprises. The problem comes from when multiple factors combine. For instance, if you're going through a mission you've done a thousand times before, and suddenly, you've got a group of baddies that spawned behind you, knocking you out into the open, and the enemy AI decided to all focus fire on you while the shield grinner charges in and knocks you over again.

 

Since these difficulty spikes are so massive, they train us as players to be incredibly overprepared for every mission and to not take risks. This trivializes the vast majourity of the content, hence too easy. And, if you dare to try and do a mission that might be challenging, a difficulty spike like this will murder you outright, hence the too hard.

 

In order to counteract this, we need the random difficulty factors to be more controlled. The AI needs to behave more consistently. The spawn rates need to be balanced with consideration to how many people are on your team and what level they are. The stalker shouldn't spawn on a frozen level.

 

 

The second contributing factor are attacks with no reasonable defense:

 

Staggers - The biggie. The only defense for a stagger is to dodge the attack. Being staggered takes away your ability to dodge. It's infuriating and inconsistently punishing. We need an active defense against it.

Frozen missions - Half our shields, gone. No way to defend against it. Nothing you can do about it except quitting. This seriously needs work.

Teleporting grinner - This is either annoying, or utterly devestating, and you CANNOT defend against it, especially when there's multiple grinner warping you all over the level.

Ancient swat attacks - You used to be able to dodge these, but they literally track you now and knock you over. Special mention because this one really irks me.

 

Getting killed because you had no chance is never a fun experience, and I've never had that "challenging but fun" experience in this game. I only die once in a blue moon in this game, but when I do, I always ask myself "What could I have done to prevent this death?" I rarely have an answer to that question.

Fixing the difficulty issues is going to take a lot of work, and cannot be done with simple number adjustments. I welcome any and all (constructive) thoughts/comments/feedback.

 

tl;dr Read the bold bits

Edited April 29, 2013 by Xriah

[ShadowsCrush]

Tbh, difficulty spikes keep things interesting.

 

Aside from the half shields thing being a major pain, especially on defense missions, and the fact that Ancient arms seem to hit regardless of dodging sometimes, I don't really have a problem with the rest.

[Slayblaze]

I didn't think of it that way before but you're right, I seldom take risks and always over-prepare so if I'm caught in one of those situations where those random events converge I won't be totally screwed. Random events are cool, but there does need to be consistency as well. Off the top of my head, I can't really think of good ways to create random consistence but the dilemma is interesting for sure. 

[ShadowsCrush]

I didn't think of it that way before but you're right, I seldom take risks and always over-prepare so if I'm caught in one of those situations where those random events converge I won't be totally screwed. Random events are cool, but there does need to be consistency as well. Off the top of my head, I can't really think of good ways to create random consistence but the dilemma is interesting for sure. 

 

Maybe it's just my unhealthy obession with PSO2, but in their levels, the random snags that you hit can be as simple as taking out a particular enemy that gets spawned in a group of others, to having to fight an actual normally-end-of-a-level boss right in the middle of your run.

 

And tbh, that's freaking awesome, not just because its challenging and slightly unexpected to get the boss one, but because you get a chance at even more rare loot and exp.

[Xriborg]

Tbh, difficulty spikes keep things interesting.

 

Aside from the half shields thing being a major pain, especially on defense missions, and the fact that Ancient arms seem to hit regardless of dodging sometimes, I don't really have a problem with the rest.

 

The difficulty spikes keep things interesting at the expense of the rest of the content. The rest of the content in this game is a cakewalk.

 

I'm not saying eliminate all difficulty spikes. I'm saying keep them reasonable so that the vast majourity of the game we play doesn't have to be so mind-numbingly easy.

[Xriborg]

I didn't think of it that way before but you're right, I seldom take risks and always over-prepare so if I'm caught in one of those situations where those random events converge I won't be totally screwed. Random events are cool, but there does need to be consistency as well. Off the top of my head, I can't really think of good ways to create random consistence but the dilemma is interesting for sure. 

 

The only solution that comes to mind is L4D's AI director thing. (Only played a few rounds, but that's what it was for by the sound of it.)

[Andels]

Frozen maps:

The only way is to deal with them. True, they need a lot of work. Especially new players will find these maps to be frustrating over all other difficulty factors. Half of shields off is way too much for new players.

Then again, there is a way to deal with these... Generally the less hits you take, the higher the chances for survival. Learning ways to adapt to your environment is imperative in any game where difficulty factor is random at best.

 

Stagger:

This one is pain. In my opinion not so much anymore, but then again... Learning to adapt. I've been around for some time and i can avoid being staggered most of time.

BUT... The time you spend on ground after being shield bashed is long. Getting shield bashed while being shot by group of enemies is one of the worst ways players end up dead. Same works with Ancients.

 

Few notes:

This game is in it's Beta stage, the difficulty factors in the game will change, and i believe it will change according to how community reacts to the changes. So i welcome threads like this and be happy to share my own thoughts.

 

Also, highest difficulty factor of course is the player him/herself. The way player approaches to the situation is highest factor on how the situation ends. Already finding new ways to defeat enemies like Shield Lancer, or Ancients or MOAs will not only enhance chances of survival and overall difficulty of individual player, but also brings certain depth into game.

 

For last:

In my opinion (i like to repeat these three words), greatest change to overall difficulty for new players is to rebuild the tutorial completely. It lacks a lot, and a lot more. With better tutorial, players find this game a lot easier to approach.

[XCodes]

I can't really agree that the game is ever too difficult. I always see people just run through missions, killing barely any enemies if it's not an extermination, and then run to extraction.  You can't do this in solo missions, but in team missions there don't seem to be any event triggers unless a majority of the players are in the room.

 

I want room events to trigger as soon as anyone walks into them, and I would also like to see the AI just react a bit quicker.  They generally behave well if you engage them in a careful manner, but they're very slow to react to aggressive play like someone charging in, guns blazing or someone flanking them.

[Sammy001]

Not sure this is the case, but I would like it if the game recognises how many players are in a map. Mostly I solo or duo.

 

Especially infected or corpus we get overwhelmed pretty hard at one point and after that we go through room after room with barely anything in it. I'm not opposed to chokepoints as I agree it keeps you on your toes, but it can become frustrating.

Also, me and my partner like to move rather carefully from room to room, not sure at this point that is a viable strategy when respawn after respawn hits you like a hammer.

Would it be an idea to set a max number heavies outside exterminate missions so you know at least more or less enemy strenght ? Or even the number of enemies on the map, some counter that can go up or down.

 

Mostly I throw a brick at any game that dares to use respawns. That said, I do like this game very much

[Xriborg]

I can't really agree that the game is ever too difficult.

 

Would you ever say that the game is challenging, or would you just call this game easy? In my mind, being too easy is just as much of a problem as being too hard.

[VariaManX]

I agree with OP, except I like the Frozen missions.  It's not expected and forces people to play smarter, unless your level far exceeds the mission.  And STALKERs are so annoying.  Everytime I have to face one, it's while I have brand new gear on.  Every!  Single!  Time!  It's like their thrown in just to force you to lose one revive.

[XCodes]

Would you ever say that the game is challenging, or would you just call this game easy? In my mind, being too easy is just as much of a problem as being too hard.

Most the time it's easy.  Sometimes it's challenging.  Most rooms I can just slow-walk right down the middle and headshot everything to death as they pop out.  Not bosses, though, since they do more damage for some reason.

[VScipii26]

Staggering and knockdowns are essentially the only way I've ever seen anyone half-competent go down.
They both have simple solutions.

For staggers, make it so that it's more difficult to be chain staggered. The infamous Grinner rollers have the horrid tendency to stagger you (which does little damage in and of itself), and right when you're able to bring your gun up to bear again, you get hit AGAIN. Either make the recovery even a fifth of a second fast or give some resistance to being chained.

I was surprised that I could go into a defensive maneuver the first time I got thrown by a Grineer Shield. I was anticipating that I would be able to avoid the hailstorm of bullets now flying at me by doing a ground roll, as it seems we're half pill bug already. Since then, getting knocked down makes me simply pray that my shields hold long enough for me to get off my arse and go back to full, casual standing position before taking cover.

[MyXmaN]

Difficulty? BUFF IT.

 

At first i was just a poor little Mag with a braton, trying not to die. I was like " oh shi... oh shi... oh shi..." every time i saw an ancient infested or a shockwave moa.  Trying to solo things was too difficult. Each time i was knocked down i prayed not to be stunlocked.

 

In FIVE days i became an unstoppable 500 shields 750hp Ash with an overbuffed potatoed gorgon that is literally a "DIE DIE DIE" button for everything i can see in front of me. I cant die. Shade gives me invisibility, smoke gives me invisibility, i have tons of hit points, i run with crazy speed... im a superman.

 

I cant be stunlocked because i KILL everything. With FIRE. And ICE. And electricity... and armor piercing... and serration...

 

In five days i found myself to be able to solo hyena, jackal, golem and whatnot with ease.

I can just stand before hyena and hold my left mouse button. And it dies before i do.

 

Even if im surrounded i have a TON of options to escape.

 

And as far as i can see, its not the limit. I can further buff my redirection and vitality mods, i can further buff damage mods of my gun.

 

Actually, the only challenging missions are defense ones. However, it only becomes challenging when approaching wave 15 and later. 8 ancients charging in your face sure look intimidating, when each one of them has approximately 3000+ hit points.

 

And there are a ton of players like me.

 

So...

 

Everyone has a suggestion about how to make this game easier ("omg, remove the stunlocks"). I for one would like to present one that should make this game more challenging.

 

In order not to create a new topic ill just post it here, since the name of the topic suggests some discussion about difficulty:

 

HARDCORE MODE FOR MISSIONS

 

Each mission (excluding the Mercury ones and excluding all exterminate-type missions) can be completed in a HARDCORE mode, which is:

 

1) all enemies are set to lvl55.

2) enemy hit points and shields remain the same, but their damage is TRIPLED.

3) if a boss is present, its hit points and damage is increased TEN TIMES.

4) if you alert enemies, they will spawn THREE TIMES AS FAST and pour at you from each and every door (encouraging stealth approach)

5) NO REVIVES by teammates. If your hp reaches 0, press revive button or forfeit.

6) There is ALWAYS a secondary objective, which is NOT extermination.

7) lockdowns have to be bypassed 2 times.

7) if you LOSE a hardcore mode mission, you cannot go to another one for 3 hours. (1 hour? 6 hours?)

8) if you WIN, you receive a random alert mission reward (that one if for developers to deside, if it is too good)

 

A hardcore mission is meant to be challenging as hell. Only a coordinated team should be able to have no problems with it. OR you can solo it, but you have to be a real ninja to do it.

 

I will probably not be supported by anyone in my thoughts, but still - thanks for reading (if u did).

[Quetzhal]

Posted this on another topic, but I may as well mention this here as well for relevancy:

 

Ice would be far more interesting were it localized to specific rooms as opposed to spread out across all the tiles, in my opinion. Opens room for more tactical thinking regarding enemies with high shields (drawing them into that room), etc. Course their AI would have to be adjusted so they don't just stay in the room while you blast them from outside - I'm thinking more of a thing where you draw them in, then disappear into hiding so they're forced to search for you, then kill them while their back is turned. Or other similar tactics - draw them in then force a lockdown, etc.

Right now, ice is just a blanket debuff, which I don't really find particularly interesting. If the rewards were buffed, it would give a reason to play them - but it still wouldn't be interesting, per se. Same with fire, which is a bit pointless at the moment. Make us parkour through the fire or something.

Just to note, I have no problems with a game being challenging. Unfortunately, all the ways in which the game is challenging right now is absolutely not the right kind of challenge. High stats and stunlocking isn't a good form of challenge; it's difficult, yes, but only because it's basically "make a single mistake and instantly die" gameplay. That's not difficulty. Real difficulty should force you to think tactically, force you to overcome the enemy using tactics and quick wits as opposed to "hide behind box, pop up, shoot, hide, pop up, shoot, run to another box".

Also, combat in this game should really be a bit more movement based. We're ninjas. I did make a topic about this a while ago - linking it because it's related to "make the game tougher and more awesome without stunlocking and other cheap forms of difficulty". It's a game where we should be forced to move. Mithie2 made a couple of great suggestions a few posts down.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Quetzhal

[Dervish1]

Hmm... maybe I'm just terrible at this kind of game, but I haven't been able to get out of Mercury. The first assassination mission always kills me. I see people talking about preparing, but I don't see much preparing that it's even possible to do - so I'm not sure how any of that would work. So, after a couple weeks' trying, I'm probably just going to delete the game and try something else. Too difficult or too easy aren't exactly relevant if you can't even master what some must consider to be basic skills.

[xenapan]

Hmm... maybe I'm just terrible at this kind of game, but I haven't been able to get out of Mercury. The first assassination mission always kills me. I see people talking about preparing, but I don't see much preparing that it's even possible to do - so I'm not sure how any of that would work. So, after a couple weeks' trying, I'm probably just going to delete the game and try something else. Too difficult or too easy aren't exactly relevant if you can't even master what some must consider to be basic skills.

Few questions for you.

 

a) what rank is your frame

b) what mods have you got equipped?

c) what weapons are you using?

[0shi]

I absolutely agree regarding random events, although of the ones you mentioned I'd only single out the ice missions and stalker as being significant. But what annoys me about them is not that they exist, but that there is no real reason to deal with them at all. Ice missions make me play more carefully through the whole thing, and the stalker if encountered solo usually costs me a revive (if not to him, to something later on since he took a significant chunk of my health). These things should have rewards associated with them, not just be a random "f*** you" from the game.

I also agree with MyXman's hardcore idea, although he may have gone a little far with the difficulty there :). The game does need a way to keep high level players more engaged and less stomping.

 

EDIT: The other difficulty issue worth mentioning is definitely the odd balancing that makes some things inordinately difficult or time-consuming solo, while easy in groups, such as some bosses, spy / deception missions and defence missions.

Edited May 1, 2013 by 0shi

[Loswaith]

Enemy spawn rates, while can get a bit heated I do like them it adds that extra oomph to the map and that bit of unpredictability.  I also wouldnt mind if spawns were focused more ahead of the players than behind, it kinda breaks the immersion if you have cleared 3-4 rooms only to have things jump on you in no time at all (moreso an infested issue, but can apply to all factions), rather than the time you would expect them to cover the distance from many rooms away.

 

I would definatly like more consistency to the AI, though that can be difficuilt to get working well.

 

Frozen maps I find odd as well because typically any enemies with shields seem to not have the same reduction.  Is their technology different or better in some way and if so why havent the tenno updated their own systems with it?  Why does Frost have so much if shields have issues with the cold? Prehaps having the shield regen allot slower (ie about a third of the speed) would be a better option (though again the Frost factor is there). 

As it stands frozen maps have a great effect (though I tend to find them more challenging because I cant just always rely on my shields, maybe shields just get too large), while the counter enviromental effect (fire) is neglagable.

 

Staggers arent realy that much of a challenge, it just means your no control.  For what are meant to be 'space ninja' types reflexes for recovery from staggers and especially knockdowns is very slow.  Occasionally you can end up stun locked for minutes before you drop (if soloing), with enough staggerers.

 

Yes I'd like to see some middle ground (even if it is just an added difficulity), unfortunatly balancing the combinations of frame and weapon ranks can be quite a major factor.  Sometimes you feel very overpowered others not so much.

[Diogenes161]

Less Spawn Monster tactics, but more challenging mobs and mechanics. Stun is and always has been a cheap mechanic in games, so are imerssion killing Spawns. Dodging the tenticle love should be possible and maybe make the Runners self explosion a little slower.

 

I suggest tieing all spawns to the same consoles we get the Data Modules from. Make them ship board teleport pads that will continue to pump out mobs until you hack em. The Side spawning MOA makers work well and don't break the immerssion to badly although it would be nice to be able to turn them off as well. Maybe not even a Turn off but a long delay in spawns so you can clear your way to a room and then you might have to fight through a few rooms on the way back. Make Hacking a bigger part of the game as well as adding the Sentinal Hacker mod Devs talked about. Alarms, you should be able to turn off High Sec Alarms and even cameras via hacking. You blow your stealth it can go off again. Some of the pads are also on walls and have no hack panel, these you could just let pump out mobs and teams would have to deal with them, solo players would have to sneak thru. This is all on top of what was already on patrol. 

 

By doing this teams would have to cover the hackers and fight to the panels to kill the spawns, solo players would have to stealth to the panels and turn them off or risk getting swarmed later. For those that like to just fight a Spawn Monster they then can ignore hacking and just grunt it thru. 

 

Then move on to new mobs and more mechanical challenges to up the difficulty. By doing some of these things it gives the player a choice on how difficult they want to make a mission. Stealth, turn off spawns, and sneak around or go all out and hack only when you need to open a door.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Diogenes161

[Xriborg]

 

HARDCORE MODE FOR MISSIONS

 

Each mission (excluding the Mercury ones and excluding all exterminate-type missions) can be completed in a HARDCORE mode, which is:

 

1) all enemies are set to lvl55.

2) enemy hit points and shields remain the same, but their damage is TRIPLED.

3) if a boss is present, its hit points and damage is increased TEN TIMES.

4) if you alert enemies, they will spawn THREE TIMES AS FAST and pour at you from each and every door (encouraging stealth approach)

5) NO REVIVES by teammates. If your hp reaches 0, press revive button or forfeit.

6) There is ALWAYS a secondary objective, which is NOT extermination.

7) lockdowns have to be bypassed 2 times.

7) if you LOSE a hardcore mode mission, you cannot go to another one for 3 hours. (1 hour? 6 hours?)

8) if you WIN, you receive a random alert mission reward (that one if for developers to deside, if it is too good)

 

A hardcore mission is meant to be challenging as hell. Only a coordinated team should be able to have no problems with it. OR you can solo it, but you have to be a real ninja to do it.

 

I will probably not be supported by anyone in my thoughts, but still - thanks for reading (if u did).

This is exactly the kind of difficulty that will be frusturating, unfair, and downright obnoxious for people to play. This game cannot be balanced by simple number adjustments. Not yet anyway.

 

What happens when you get a hardcore mission and it's frozen? What happens when the stalker attacks you in this frozen hardcore mission? What happens when a grinner teleports you right next to a shield grinner and he bashes you to the floor while his enemies shoot at you? I'll tell you what happens, the challenging mission becomes impossible. Why? Simple, stupid, bad luck. Chance is fun, and can spice up a game, but only when it's kept within reasonable control.

 

First things first. The random difficulty factors need to be pulled back and made more consistent. THEN you could balance through numbers, and have a mode like this present a fun challenge rather than a frustrating roll of the dice.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Xriah

[Story4]

 

 

I don't agree to all your points, but i would like to see something similar to that.

Maybe even an enemy type or two for every faction that only appears on hardcore mode? That would make things interesting.

Also i don't agree to not be able to do a hardcore mode again, i think that you should just have an ? reward every 5 times you complete a hardcore mission or something like that. But no artifacts!

But again, it would be interesting, especially if DE makes a scoreboard of how many consecutive hardcore mission you completed solo or with a team, to add a little competition.

 

@OP, i agree the randomness is pretty annoying especially because sometimes you don't see 20 enemies one level and the other times you see 100. I think this is one reason why people don't use their abilities that much when they solo, you never know if in the next room there will be nobody, a camera, or 20 moa and crewmen with 5 shield ospreys.

[Xriborg]

@OP, i agree the randomness is pretty annoying especially because sometimes you don't see 20 enemies one level and the other times you see 100. I think this is one reason why people don't use their abilities that much when they solo, you never know if in the next room there will be nobody, a camera, or 20 moa and crewmen with 5 shield ospreys.

 

I don't mind not knowing what's in the room ahead of me. I mind not knowing if something spawned in the room I just cleared and is going to sandwich me between it and what's in the room ahead of me.

[Story4]

I don't mind not knowing what's in the room ahead of me. I mind not knowing if something spawned in the room I just cleared and is going to sandwich me between it and what's in the room ahead of me.

 

I don't mind it either, it was just an observation why people don't use their abilities that much. But Ancient Disruptors spawning behind me is the Bane to my Batman. Sometimes i wish i could take a Hek and stick it to them where the sun don't shine.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Story4

[Dervish1]

Xenapan:

 

Dervish1, on 30 Apr 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

Hmm... maybe I'm just terrible at this kind of game, but I haven't been able to get out of Mercury. The first assassination mission always kills me. I see people talking about preparing, but I don't see much preparing that it's even possible to do - so I'm not sure how any of that would work. So, after a couple weeks' trying, I'm probably just going to delete the game and try something else. Too difficult or too easy aren't exactly relevant if you can't even master what some must consider to be basic skills.

Few questions for you.

 

a) what rank is your frame - I've got the basic frame, I never earned enough to be able to afford a better one. But it's rank 11.

b) what mods have you got equipped? - I don't know exactly, there's the slash dash, radial spears, high jump and another that I haven't been able to use.

c) what weapons are you using? I have all starting weapons (except I've upgraded the sword to the quarterstaff, which does way more damage and stuns more often. It's rank 9. The other weapons are ranks 1 & 3, but I find the gun aiming very difficult.)