Petition To Remove Frame And Weapon Slot Limits Or Offer A Free Way To Get Them

[Story4]

@ windbow, i've made some edits to my post to give you an example of why keeping players is better. Also i meant 20% of 1 million, not 20% of 200.000 (stupid edit).

 

Just in case, I'm going to say again that the costs of marketing I'm sure outweigh the costs of keeping free players with server upkeep, bandwith, space for slots etc. And if the free players gets you free advertising, instead of paying for it with marketing and also if in time they will invest in the game, it's a win-win.

 

That's why good F2P games that have a fair cash-shop have been succesful, they relied on their player-base to do the marketing for them and in time most likely they will pay at least some cash if they invest enough time in you game. Have you ever seen Dota 2 or TF2(when it went f2p) advertised on gaming sites? Other than articles made by them, i haven't seen any ads. They have the player-base because they are easy games to get into, do not require you to pay and also the large free advertisement they get from their players.

 

For example, i have played LoL since closed-beta and after some time i went to college. There i lived with 3 of my former class-mates and they never even heard of LoL until i told them (free advertising). We kept playing and eventually i decided that a hero looked cool enough, so i bought it for 10$, skin+champion. After another year one other friend decided to pay, because even if he was a noob (still is :p), he really liked a hero so he paid 10$ for a skin. After some time again i bought some RP to get some skins on other champions i enjoyed.

This is how F2P games work, people invest time in them and over time get more people to play. These people also get others and so on. Eventually people will decide that they want a skin/to buy a champion because they played a lot with it and really liked the game and the developer. I made my first purchase after 1 year and my second one after another year and i made my friend pay by bringing him into the game. So even for a free game, it made 30$ from me over the course of 3 years, maybe even more if the guys that i told about the game told others etc.

 

The way the slots are in the game, a free player can't invest that much time in Warframe, ending his play at some time and if he doesn't consider that slots/warframes are worth it he won't even pay.Also if he feels that the system is too advantageous for paying players then he will do the opposite of good advertising, telling people that he felt too limited while playing and maybe getting even less players in the game.

 

That's the way i see it anyway and i don't think that i am wrong. I won't bash the game to other friends, i will tell them to try it since it's free, but i'm sure that there are enough other players that will do the opposite.

 

And if DE listens for the forums, maybe after all these discussion they will make the decision of making a fair way of letting free players get slots and potatoes in-game without paying money. At that time i would like to think that i made a difference, even if at the moment i think that i'm fighting windmills. If they don't that is their decision and their prerogative since they are the ones who are developing the game, not me.

 

But if they will make what i think is the right decision, at release day i will purchase 10-20 euros worth of platinum just to support the developers.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Story4

[Xtorma]

If DE is really just trying to nickel and dime us they wouldn't have added some weapons like Dark Sword and Dark Daggers that are exclusive to Alert mission reward, they can just set a price for those items.

I don't think the thread is about nickle and diming. If you read it. it's actually two different viewpoints on how to generate revenue. Both sides are actually concerned about the game. This is a good thing, and makes for a good discussion.  

[Windbow]

4k concurrent users (ie people playing the game at a given moment) down.  That translates to a hell of a lot more than 4k registered users since the number of registered users are rarely representative of how many people are actually playing the game.

 

4k concurrent steam users. But I concede your point. However, you don't know for a fact that "slots for plats" is the reason they quit. It's likely the reason some of them quit. I'm just not convinced that the "slots for plats" issue is the main reason they quit.

 

If I had to guess, I'd guess it's the lack of stuff to do. The farm and grind. The lack of variety in gameplay. The lack of story and end game. The quick burn (eg. speedrunning countless missions) and burnout. All things that are being addressed and planned to be addressed as we speak. 

[Story4]

4k concurrent steam users. But I concede your point. However, you don't know for a fact that "slots for plats" is the reason they quit. It's likely the reason some of them quit. I'm just not convinced that the "slots for plats" issue is the main reason they quit.

 

If I had to guess, I'd guess it's the lack of stuff to do. The farm and grind. The lack of variety in gameplay. The lack of story and end game. The quick burn (eg. speedrunning countless missions) and burnout. All things that are being addressed and planned to be addressed as we speak. 

 

Well the lack of stuff to do is also tied with the slots, even if indirectly. With limited slots you can't even grind so much, limiting play-time, you have a lack of gameplay variety because you can't have different weapons/warframes that have different abilities/fire differently and there is no reason to do all the bosses.

[SkyllianBlitz]

We're running into speculation of statistics that we don't have access to.

 

What's the average amount of total hours played per player? Of those players, how many people are buying plat? Are people with less hours buying more plat than those with more hours? Are people who play regularly spending more plat than people who don't? What's the churn rate of players? How consistently are people buying plat? Is the rate of plat purchase consistent or in fits and bursts? Are they tied to content release or not? Do people log in after content release after a hiatus and spend plat or not? Is the player bleed abnormal or standard for a post-Steam launch? Are people quitting once they fill their slots? Are they selling weapons and frames and using new ones? What's the most common use of plat? What's the average amount of plat bought? What's the amount of plat bought per hour of gameplay?

 

I could keep going on but the matter of the fact is that we don't have access to these sort of figures. But DE does. And they have to figure out a way to make sure that players are happy but they're getting enough money to keep Warframe going.

 

What does that mean for us? Play until you no longer feel you're getting value. And then stop. Or slow down. DE will see the numbers. But be prepared for the fact that what you think may not hold for everyone. And DE may decide that trying to keep you is not worth the revenue loss that allows them to keep working on a game that the rest of the players enjoy.

[Windbow]

@Story4: I have read all your posts on this thread, actually. I'm not saying you are wrong, as such. I'm saying it's been said before. By many others. And counter-argued by others as well. DE knows what you're saying and the points you've made and the examples you cited. They have not decided to change the slots for plats thing. (Yet?) They have done their research.

 

The fact is, DE_Steve has come on record (in the forums and iinm, early livestream) that the f2p models of those other f2p games do not work for them (Warframe). That's not something you or I can argue about because we don't have access to their player behaviour stats nor do we know what DE is like physically (except for the Tenno infiltrator known as Ced23Ric).

 

 

Aside: To be fair, TF2 and DotA2 are both sequels that already have large followings and fanbases. They don't need to advertise already. Even then, TF2 is still advertised on steam via promotions and sales. LoL is a DotA-alike, so many players who played DotA will also be into that and tell their friends.

 

Aside2: Warframe is neither an mmo (in the sense more people understand it) nor a DotA-alike or TF-alike. The closest, in terms of gameplay (minus ninja moves) to it, is a game like MassEffect3's multiplayer game. That is free to play online but not f2p in the conventional sense. You already bought the game to play. 

[Windbow]

Well the lack of stuff to do is also tied with the slots, even if indirectly. With limited slots you can't even grind so much, limiting play-time, you have a lack of gameplay variety because you can't have different weapons/warframes that have different abilities/fire differently and there is no reason to do all the bosses.

 

No, this is not what I meant at all. What I mean by stuff to do and gameplay variety is something along the lines of this thread:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/37854-suggestion-incorporating-actual-ship-elements-to-the-gameplay/

 

Having more frames and more weapons don't change the gameplay we currently have overly much.

[Story4]

@Windbow i see your points, but TF2 had a lot more profit when it went F2P as opposed of when it was B2P. I know because i have bought it before it went F2P and i wasn't even a fan of the first one, so everyone who was already a fan had bought it before that point.

 

Since it doubled it's profit i think (i know that Valve released a graph after some time) after it went F2P, and since everyone who was a fan of the first one already bought it before that, i think the logical conclusion would be that new players that never played the first one were the ones who made it more succesful.

 

I can't talk about Dota 2, because i don't like dota in general, but in TF2 i was there when the transition was made and the profit was mostly from new players, not from fans.

 

"No, this is not what I meant at all. What I mean by stuff to do and gameplay variety is something along the lines of this thread:"

 

Yeah i understood that, but i just wanted to state that warframes and weapons also alter gameplay. You use shotgun for close quarters, sniper for long range, Glaive has a unique gameplay mechanic, different weapons act differently (knockback, stun, charge time, accuracy, wind-up time), changing gameplay. Also Warframes alter gameplay with their abilities, using Rhino you have his go-to ability which is Iron Skin(making you invulnerable, altering gameplay because you don't have to look for cover or be scared about meleeing toxics), Frost has Snowglobe, Excalibur Slash Dash, Nyx Chaos and many others, which also effect gameplay more or less.

 

Since these are the only things that give a diversification in how to play in warframe, limiting it with slots decreases play-time and instills boredom. Not that i mean to say that slots should be free, but an option to get them for free players through playing should be made.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Story4

[crow-k]

If they make it so that credits can buy slots it should be just shy of prohibitively expensive. Maybe 1mil. That way you do not have to spend a penny, but time, time you will spend.  

[Story4]

If they make it so that credits can buy slots it should be just shy of prohibitively expensive. Maybe 1mil. That way you do not have to spend a penny, but time, time you will spend.  

 

1 mil is WAY too much. i played 150 hours and barely got to 2.5 o.O and i just have 300.000 left.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Story4

[Story4]

I kinda like the idea that Mietz suggested, you can get slots for mastery experience so you can either level up your mastery or get slots and take more time to level up your mastery. It would be a pretty good incentive to make you buy slots with platinum especially if you have some weapons that are only available at higher mastery levels.

[crow-k]

Thats the point. If you want to have your cake your going to pay. No one is going to give it to you for free. if you want it for in game credits and not cash, that is fine with me. But it shouldnt be easy. There has to be an incentive to support the game. The question becomes, how much does your time mean to you vs your ability to spend a small amount of cash and enjoy things now? 

[Klaww]

The game is already ~4k less concurrent players on steam than it was at steam launch.  Players have left for many reasons, but slots have been a constant complaint throughout the game's development.  Anyone that thinks the game is not losing players to this issue is being willfully ignorant.

source? Thats just a opinion until its backed up

[Story4]

Thats the point. If you want to have your cake your going to pay. No one is going to give it to you for free. if you want it for in game credits and not cash, that is fine with me. But it shouldnt be easy. There has to be an incentive to support the game. The question becomes, how much does your time mean to you vs your ability to spend a small amount of cash and enjoy things now? 

 

But if it isn't fair then who would get it? I think it's even worse that way because you have to spend over 70 hours just to get a slot, gimping yourself becasue you have to farm instead of spending credits on mods, crafting etc.

 

Again, this seems like a good idea:

 

"I kinda like the idea that Mietz suggested, you can get slots for mastery experience so you can either level up your mastery or get slots and take more time to level up your mastery. It would be a pretty good incentive to make you buy slots with platinum especially if you have some weapons that are only available at higher mastery levels."

Edited May 4, 2013 by Story4

[Klaww]

The thing is, anything you do - spend time or money on, is based on the value proposition to you. You personally. You cannot project your own views on countless unknown persons. Is playing this game fun enough to be worth your time? Is buying plats worth the money? Are slots worth the plats? Only each player can answer that.

 

The fact is, any game (any thing, really) is not for everyone. There will always be people who will come by, check out the game, hit something like the slot limit or anything else, really (lack of story? too much grinding?), and leave. People will leave for some reason or other. I think DE is smart enough to understand that.

 

Equally, people will stay for their own reasons. Btw. it's also not a done and closed case that those who leave will never come back. This game is still in beta and we know for a fact that there's plenty of content coming down the pipeline. Plenty. There will be more to do than grind for bps and mods. Update 8 will add clan features, for example. There will be reasons for people to come back. Plus, games news sites, gameplay vids, word of mouth or just plain curiosity will tempt them to take another look.

 

For better or worse, DE has decided to stick with slots for plats all through CB and now OB. They must have numbers to support their decision.  Someone gave a number of what, ~4k players down on steam? We have hit 1 million registered players according to DEdevs during the same time and trending upwards. It's one of the reasons the hamsters had to be super-ized. If/when the numbers show otherwise, I'm sure DE will evolve.

 

So... if there's nothing more to be said (without repeating the same points), let's end this thread, shall we?

^ This so much

Basically summed it up.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Klaww

[crow-k]

I offer this as my last argument 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 *takes deep breath*

-blows a raspberry- 

Runs away laughing and squealing like a little girl.

[Aggh]

@Story4: I have read all your posts on this thread, actually. I'm not saying you are wrong, as such. I'm saying it's been said before. By many others. And counter-argued by others as well. DE knows what you're saying and the points you've made and the examples you cited. They have not decided to change the slots for plats thing. (Yet?) They have done their research.

 

The fact is, DE_Steve has come on record (in the forums and iinm, early livestream) that the f2p models of those other f2p games do not work for them (Warframe). That's not something you or I can argue about because we don't have access to their player behaviour stats nor do we know what DE is like physically (except for the Tenno infiltrator known as Ced23Ric).

 

 

Aside: To be fair, TF2 and DotA2 are both sequels that already have large followings and fanbases. They don't need to advertise already. Even then, TF2 is still advertised on steam via promotions and sales. LoL is a DotA-alike, so many players who played DotA will also be into that and tell their friends.

 

Aside2: Warframe is neither an mmo (in the sense more people understand it) nor a DotA-alike or TF-alike. The closest, in terms of gameplay (minus ninja moves) to it, is a game like MassEffect3's multiplayer game. That is free to play online but not f2p in the conventional sense. You already bought the game to play. 

 

All game devs say that.  They don't like being compared to successful games because they know they'll never be able to measure up to them.  Thus they say other games' models don't fit.  The irony of this is that they often then go on to make a system that is very similar with some minor detrimental differences.  Slots are a good example of this.  Because when you get down to it, the system DE has right now is not very different from other f2p games aside from the fact that they're giving away some costmetics (helmets) and charging for stuff that many games don't bother with (slots).

 

Warframe is stradling the dungeon crawler and shooter genres.  The fact that it has a foot in the shooter genre  makes slots mesh pretty poorly with the expectations of some players.

 

source? Thats just a opinion until its backed up

Been living under a rock or something? Have you not heard of steam stats/graphs/charts?  The game has regularly been fluctuating between 12-17k users and hit an all time peak of 21k (21,157 to be exact).

 

 

 

^ This so much

Basically summed it up.

Oh look, another person that can't tell the difference between concurrent users and registered users. 

Edited May 4, 2013 by Aggh

[RedFaceGeneral]

I don't think the thread is about nickle and diming. If you read it. it's actually two different viewpoints on how to generate revenue. Both sides are actually concerned about the game. This is a good thing, and makes for a good discussion.  

 

Maybe i interpreted wrongly. I apologize for that.

 

I have no problem plopping down some cash for a good game made by a good developer. To me, they just need more stuff for purchase(like decals, skin etc).

[Story4]

All game devs say that.  They don't like being compared to successful games because they know they'll never be able to measure up to them.  Thus they say other games' models don't fit.  The irony of this is that they often then go on to make a system that is very similar with some minor detrimental differences.  Slots are a good example of this.  Because when you get down to it, the system DE has right now is not very different from other f2p games aside from the fact that they're giving away some costmetics (helmets) and charging for stuff that many games don't bother with (slots).

 

Warframe is stradling the dungeon crawler and shooter genres.  The fact that it has a foot in the shooter genre  makes slots mesh pretty poorly with the expectations of some players.

 

Been living under a rock or something? Have you not heard of steam stats/graphs/charts?  The game has regularly been fluctuating between 12-17k users and hit an all time peak of 21k (21,157 to be exact).

 

 

 

Oh look, another person that can't tell the difference between concurrent users and registered users. 

 

Just to prove your point that WF lost some players, let's do some fractions.

 

1.000.000 registered players..........................................20.000 concurrent players

x registered players........................................................16.000 concurrent players

 

x is 800.000 players. So basically you could say that, if warframe lost 4000 concurrent players and reached it's peak of 1.000.000 registered accounts during the 20.000 concurrent players peak, that it lost 200.000 registered accounts.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Story4

[Aggh]

Just to prove your point that WF lost some players, let's do some fractions.

 

1.000.000 registered players..........................................20.000 concurrent players

x registered players........................................................16.000 concurrent players

 

x is 800.000 players. So basically you could say that, if warframe lost 4000 concurrent players and reached it's peak of 1.000.000 registered accounts during the 20.000 concurrent players peak, that it lost 200.000 registered accounts.

That assumes that the number of registered players can directly translate into the number of concurrent users.  In f2p games, the number of registered users is generally a pretty meaningless statistic in the long run, especially since most companies never bothered to look (or at least don't talki about it) into how many unique registered users there are and how many have even bothered playing.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Aggh

[Azure_Kytia]

Yeah. You can see in the EE.log how many concurrent users there are as you log in, so... Nothing says live stats like.... Live stats. At present, there's around 21800-22000 users. It's stayed around that number for the past few hours.

[Story4]

That assumes that registered players directly translate into the number of concurrent users.  Especially in f2p games, the number of registered users is generally a pretty meaningless statistic in the long run.

I agree, but these are the only numbers we have. And it's pretty logical that it would reach it's 1 mil registered accounts during the peak. IF it reached it before, then the number of lost registered accounts is even higher

 

EDIT: @ Azura_Kyte my steam shows 17200 aproximatively concurrent players at the moment, there were over 20.000 a few weeks ago.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Story4

[Aggh]

Yeah. You can see in the EE.log how many concurrent users there are as you log in, so... Nothing says live stats like.... Live stats. At present, there's around 21800-22000 users. It's stayed around that number for the past few hours.

That includes the people not playing on steam (further backing up the fact that most people are playing on steam).  It doesn't change the fact that the player base has been fluctuating significantly.

[Azure_Kytia]

EDIT: @ Azura_Kyte my steam shows 17200 aproximatively concurrent players at the moment, there were over 20.000 a few weeks ago.

Those numbers are irrelevant and add no information of significance when you consider that it is highly unlikely that you recorded that information on the same weekday and time as you did today. People's playing habits vary based on Those factors, among others.

Also keep in mind that everyone who plays Warframe does not do so through Steam. I would be happy to keep track of concurrent users over the course of a few days.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[Aggh]

Those numbers are irrelevant and add no information of significance when you consider that it is highly unlikely that you recorded that information on the same weekday and time as you did today. People's playing habits vary based on Those factors, among others.

Also keep in mind that everyone who plays Warframe does not do so through Steam. I would be happy to keep track of concurrent users over the course of a few days.

Just a staggering majority of them.  Steam currently has 17,128 concurrent players playing warframe.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Aggh