Why Not Remove Multishot Instead?

[ltlsiren]

Nah i just want to remove dumb nobrainer mods that just push damage wih NO downside.

Fire rate mod? You burn through ammo faster, you have to reload more often  = nobrainer

Elemental mods? One element is not always the best against any enemy type = nobrainer

"There will be always one build like in all the other games"

... then give players alternatives. Otherwise everyone goes Boltor/Rhinoprime Noobcasualmode

 

 

Firerate mods are pretty much a nobrainer on all charge up weapons. On fully automatics they are rarely if ever used saved for that one mod shred only because it gives punchthrough at a much lower cost than metal auger.

I'm indifferent on whither having to switch to the appropriate elemental damage types for different factions can be considered a downside for elemental damage mods as a whole, its not something that makes elemental damage optional. But I do agree that they add a little bit of mechanical complexity to the game.

 

We have alternatives now, even with the current meta not everyone is running around with a boltor prime and using synoid gammacor as their sidearms. We use whatever we consider fun to use. Nothing is stopping me from soloing T4Es with a melee only build, it is more risky and less efficient but I'm having a lot more fun than blitzing through it with a synoid gammacor.

 

I'm not arguing against your idea, I'm just wondering what can we gain from such changes. 

Edited January 18, 2015 by ltlsiren

[Inez]

Actually I advocate that all damage mods and multishot be removed or changed to other mods so that DE can generate NEW kinds of mods to increase the way we CHOOSE to build rather than the way it is NECESSARY to build our weapons to make them VIABLE.

 

Currently every single weapon in the game utilizes the base damage mod + multishot mod, that equates to no choice in those slots because otherwise your damage is so low two people can use the same gun and while one obliterates enemies in no time the other barely scratches them in the same amount of time. Hence"false choice" mods.

 

Had you actually read my post you would've seen what your idea leads to: different mandatory mods.

 

Once again, since you don't seem to understand: If you you remove damage and multishot mods, elementals are still mandatory. Remove those, and fire rate, clip size and reload mods become mandatory. And so on.

 

There is always going to be a min/max build. I'm not sure why people like you fail to see this.

[Innocent_Flower]

There is always going to be a min/max build. I'm not sure why people like you fail to see this.

If that min/max build isn't gratuitously OP, it's fine. 

[LtZefar]

If that min/max build isn't gratuitously OP, it's fine. 

But that build would become the most optimal build and then you people whine about it again and how it doesn't offer variation. Then you'd want to remove the next best mod in the line and repeat the process.

[geninrising]

Had you actually read my post you would've seen what your idea leads to: different mandatory mods.

 

Once again, since you don't seem to understand: If you you remove damage and multishot mods, elementals are still mandatory. Remove those, and fire rate, clip size and reload mods become mandatory. And so on.

 

There is always going to be a min/max build. I'm not sure why people like you fail to see this.

Actually I chose to not respond to things I saw an non mandatory mods. In your example said mods could be mandatory for a full DPS build but what if with the new system implemented we would receive other cool mods that produced effects markedly different then raw dps? or gave us a way to generate part of that dps+an added effect such as

 

Multishot could be made into a utility mod. Any/all of these could work. 

 

 

-Burst fire on any weapon. 

-Increasing the size of the cone of damage.

-Small chance of a free bullet. 

-That cool 'two arrow' trick they do on bows in movies. Be legolas. 

-Spliting a missile into several smaller missiles. Hello carpet-bombing ogris. 

 

 

 I feel like currently we fight too much rng and removing "false choice mods" such as status chance mods and multishot mods(or potentially not removing them and just altering them to remove the rng) would be a fantastic idea.

 

Or we get raw damage from something like this(see below) which still allows us full diversity of choice amongst other mods as sort of a utility/cool stuff we don't have now, such as a mod that guarantees X proc type on hit. To be honest I sincerely miss being able to hit that cold/elec proc whenever I hit any enemy from damage 1.0 Prior to status chance.

Serration/Hornet Strike:

Those 2 should be the only 2 must mods, and Point Blank should work the same way. Give the Weapons an "Aura" slot (called "Profession" or sth) where you install these mods. You can install those right away into lvl 0 gun, but the mod levels will be unlocked as you  level the weapon up.

For example: Level 1 Soma = Serration lvl 1 activated             Level 15 Soma = Serration lvl 7 activated

So you have a steady progression in leveling, and no mod slot will be taken for the "MAY" mods, wich every other mod should be.

 

In short try to figure out what we can ask DE to do in order to resolve the issue we are discussing(and they are trying to figure out as well) rather than shooting the concept down which could prevent some really cool additions from happening.

[P0int.Zer0]

Firerate mods are pretty much a nobrainer on all charge up weapons.

Mmhh i have to agree here. Well 1 slot less for a damage mod i guess : ) ?

 

I'm not arguing against your idea, I'm just wondering what can we gain from such changes. 

 

V A R I E T Y     because its fun like

R A I N B O W    damnit no space for the S

 

 

@geninrising: I have to catch up the things the devs said in the Livestream, will be done tomorrow.

Edited January 18, 2015 by P0int.Zer0

[geninrising]

But that build would become the most optimal build and then you people whine about it again and how it doesn't offer variation. Then you'd want to remove the next best mod in the line and repeat the process.

The problem isn't DPS as it stands. The problem is having no real choice other than raw deeps atm and therefore no build diversity really shines through due to mandatory Split chamber, serration, possibly heavy cal, 2 or more elements plus MAYBE one utility mod(shred which is also another thing factoring into DPS builds because punch through+ROF = greater ammo economy and more potential damage dealt per shot).

 

Mandatory means the weapon cannot function well without said mods. Whereas  with a new system we could potentially see really cool effects that they may not be able to implement as is due to the necessity of those core mods which would cause the cool factor of new mods to be lackluster when compared to the options we have now.

 

However if DE, removes or restructures what we have now we have a way to implement new stuff that continues to enforce player choice rather than system necessities.

 

What could we do if the mentioned mods were innate factors of the weapons that became stronger as they leveled. Plus honestly mutishot mods are neither cool in visual or implementation, you MIGHT see a bullet(conversely you might not) But if were one of these new mods conceptually you might be able to actually apply another barrel to the weapon for example. Double barreled Opticor guaranteeing you 2 shots per full charge YES PLEASE! Or like Innocent_Flower said 2 arrows at a time from Paris prime? Multirocket launching Ogris? Those are basic concepts yes but it would give the system much more room to grow than the current one that is stagnant and has little room for customization due to the fact that no amount of cool in the current system can outweigh a serration.

[GeneralArmchair]

So...you want to nerf all the damage mods? Then tell me how are we going to deal with high level content?

in all likelihood, weapon damage would scale with weapon level. Just like warframe stats.

Serration and multishot need to go because they are false choices. They are present on 100% of builds. That is argument enough for them to get the ax.

[LtZefar]

The problem isn't DPS as it stands. The problem is having no real choice other than raw deeps atm and therefore no build diversity really shines through due to mandatory Split chamber, serration, possibly heavy cal, 2 or more elements plus MAYBE one utility mod(shred which is also another thing factoring into DPS builds because punch through+ROF = greater ammo economy and more potential damage dealt per shot).

 

Removing mods will not increase this diversity. It just won't. Right now I like having my weapon being godly powerful when I've thrown in all of the damage mods. I don't like bullet sponges like in Borderlands 1 and 2. It's boring and tiresome to constantly have to fire a ton of bullets into an enemy.

 

 

 

Mandatory means the weapon cannot function well without said mods. Whereas  with a new system we could potentially see really cool effects that they may not be able to implement as is due to the necessity of those core mods which would cause the cool factor of new mods to be lackluster when compared to the options we have now.

 

However if DE, removes or restructures what we have now we have a way to implement new stuff that continues to enforce player choice rather than system necessities.

 

 

The weapon won't function well on the highest leveled areas. On lower level it could probably do fine unless the weapon is utter trash but that's not the mod systems fault. But most weapons can kill enemies on Mercury Survival on rank 1.

As for effects. They could just throw those in right now on Elemental mods but make 3 extra versions of the fire mod and give each one a unique property and only allow for one being in the gun. PROBLEM FIXED!

No need to remove stuff, just add more that are actually worth using.

 

Also repeat the same thing with all other elemental damage mods. Now you got a ton of choices to use in your build without having to sacrifice any damage at all.

 

We can still be powerful and we get more choices. But noooooo people think removing stuff will fix the system. Bah

[(PSN)tampa-db]

I am failing to see the problem. Leveling up mods takes time and serration is just leveling up your damage.

 

If anything should change, I think mods should stay with the first weapon you attach it to so if you throw a max serrated on you boltor p, you cannot switch it to your soma p. You will need an additional maxed serrated. That should up the replay value a bit....lol

[geninrising]

Removing mods will not increase this diversity. It just won't. Right now I like having my weapon being godly powerful when I've thrown in all of the damage mods. I don't like bullet sponges like in Borderlands 1 and 2. It's boring and tiresome to constantly have to fire a ton of bullets into an enemy.

 

This is the problem though. What we have NOW ARE BULLET SPONGES. Even the bosses in game are simply resilient to damage unless you strike a weak point. There is no type of difficulty not based around MOAR DAMAGE and thus the enemies now have ridiculous hp/shields/armor all of which scales based on levels rather than giving us smarter AI and more actual difficulty or challenge. Being godlike in power actually precludes them from evolving the AI system and here is why.

 

Because we just explode everything easily, enemies health/shields/armor scale. Also their DAMAGE. If they were to give AI smarter behaviors and proper cover tactics most players would be a vapor trail or a bloody mess quite easily due to the fact that most in WF do not even realize that utilizing cover is a useful mechanic at this point. To be quite honest honest I see a number of players all day long that do not even realize what half their kit works towards. All these IS rhino's lately are sincerely irking me because that's all they can comprehend and any kind of tactical decision making flies right over their heads.

 

Previously before we were so op WF had fewer enemies but our weapons in no way shape form or fashion matched their current incarnations and so we were forced to respect them more and thus think about what we were doing prior to just going balls deep.

 

If we took a hit in DPS enemy scaling could be toned down and ai reworked to be something  more than what it is now. Essentially make the game a bit more about skill and less about the OP FOTM gun.

in all likelihood, weapon damage would scale with weapon level. Just like warframe stats.

Serration and multishot need to go because they are false choices. They are present on 100% of builds. That is argument enough for them to get the ax.

+1

[LtZefar]

in all likelihood, weapon damage would scale with weapon level. Just like warframe stats.

Serration and multishot need to go because they are false choices. They are present on 100% of builds. That is argument enough for them to get the ax.

 

Critical mods are present in all weapons with Critical damage.

Elemental damage mods like the 90% one are present in all weapons.

Slash damage mods are present in all Melee weapons that use slash damage.

 

Are we supposed to remove those as well? Because that's what it sounds like.

 

They are part of the game because when you didn't have them you desperately wanted to have them and it took a great amount of time to find just one of them. They are also a time sink and money sink too. Not to mention Fusion core sink. When you first find it you might not just be able to max it out as it'll cost quite a bit.

 

Also what would you replace Serration with? Another damage mod that will become mandatory? Pretty much. As you're more likely to be able to fit in dual elements now. On all weapons. Illusion of choice!

 

 

This is the problem though. What we have NOW ARE BULLET SPONGES. Even the bosses in game are simply resilient to damage unless you strike a weak point. There is no type of difficulty not based around MOAR DAMAGE and thus the enemies now have ridiculous hp/shields/armor all of which scales based on levels rather than giving us smarter AI and more actual difficulty or challenge. Being godlike in power actually precludes them from evolving the AI system and here is why.

 

 

The only boss that really tanks damage is Lephantis but that's because has a Damage reduction aura on him that removes like 75% of your damage or so. Quite silly. But most other bosses are not exactly tanks with a powerful weapon.

 

Enemies normally dies in a few hit and it's only those Elite Heavy Gunners that tend to soak up a lot of damage at around 40+ minutes on Survival maps. Because he get higher armor and such. Which can be countered with Corrosive Projection. But normal enemies are just fine.

 

Smarter AI isn't the way to go. I love laying waste to hordes of enemies because that's what I expect my Warframe to do. I don't expect to be taken down by a small group of enemies just because they are smart. I'm a one man army and with that comes power to back it up. The enemies imo should have to brute force you down.

Because why bother being a Tenno if you can't handle a small group of enemies at lower levels because they are smart.

 

 

 

Because we just explode everything easily, enemies health/shields/armor scale. Also their DAMAGE. If they were to give AI smarter behaviors and proper cover tactics most players would be a vapor trail or a bloody mess quite easily due to the fact that most in WF do not even realize that utilizing cover is a useful mechanic at this point. To be quite honest honest I see a number of players all day long that do not even realize what half their kit works towards. All these IS rhino's lately are sincerely irking me because that's all they can comprehend and any kind of tactical decision making flies right over their heads.

 

 

If that was put in then we wouldn't be able to level up quickly. Defense would be an absolute nightmare if enemies where smart enough to just fire at the Console constantly and ignore the Tennos.

Leveling up low level weapons would also be a nightmare when all of the enemies just rip you to shreds even though you're a Tenno.

This would make certain Warframes so massively powerful compared to others because they have ways to defend against incoming damage. Where as the rest are out of luck.

 

You wouldn't feel special or powerful at all. Might as well just unequip my Warframe suit and go on without it. 

 

 

 

Previously before we were so op WF had fewer enemies but our weapons in no way shape form or fashion matched their current incarnations and so we were forced to respect them more and thus think about what we were doing prior to just going balls deep.

 

If we took a hit in DPS enemy scaling could be toned down and ai reworked to be something  more than what it is now. Essentially make the game a bit more about skill and less about the OP FOTM gun.

 

I've been around for over 2 years with Warframe. So I'm not sure what you're talking about here. In the older Warframes enemies would just get higher and higher armor stats that it made all weapons except Boltor and Kunais good. Because these where Armor ignore with either 100% or 25%. I think there was another weapon with that feature as well.

 

There was also more enemies around back then as I remember easily getting over 25k + 20k bonus exp on Earth - Mobile Defense maps. Enemies just poured in to fight us but the weapons I had the time where pretty powerful. Enough to slaughter the enemies.

 

 

So for me, buffing the AI isn't the way to go. Making them dumber but get them to trying to brute force you down is the way to go. Because we're still a One man Army race that everyone fears. We can shift the balance of power as we please. So making the normal grunts dangerous enough to just wipe the floor with us is not going to make the game more fun.