Why The Grakata Is Underpowered And Not Worth Buying.

[Gearb0x]

This thread was terrible when it was alive.

 

Now it's necromanced and even worse now.

 

The problem with the original post is that it "mathematically" proves the Grakata does not live up to the Gorgon while getting the math wrong.  It thereby nullifies the conclusions therein, since they are based on faulty data.

 

Go use, say https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Al651yf-IXPUdDBZSXpQeWZCdUV5ZWpOQ1RXYlBpSGc#gid=2'>this tool to recreate your calculations, use the proper equation: then come back with your 60% DPS malarky.

[LazyKnight]

I know this topic should be dead, the only really issue with the Grakata is its ammo usage its dps is fine. It fires too fast for the availability of ammo but its by no means an inferior weapon if your feeding it ammo boxes.

 

I would like to see its fire rate lowered its recoil dampened and its damage raised but a point or two, that is just my opinion. I just think it would make it a more fun weapon because a gun with that high of a fire rate is barely controllable.

Edited June 23, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Alphascrub]

A fully modded grakata on a banshee out paces every single gun in the game.

[LazyKnight]

A fully modded grakata on a banshee out paces every single gun in the game.

Using powers of a warfames to supplement a weapon isn't really a strong argument in favor of a weapon its in favor of the frame. If anything its exploiting game mechanics as opposed to the weapon being good. Dread does 200% critical as well with charge and is just as damaging.

[VScipii26]

I use a rank 20 potatoed Grakata.
While it is a fun gun to use (the firing speed in combination with the magazine size is fun), it is lacking. It has it's redeeming qualities, but those qualities are it's crit (unreliable) and it's firing speed (which is inherent).

Ultimately, it need some little THING to make it worth while, because right now, it's a sidegrade only to the Burston.

[aTaVaX]

A fully modded grakata on a banshee out paces every single gun in the game.

 

why is that the case? doesn't sonar just flat out increase damage in that area by 500%? why would it scale better with the grakata?

[LazyKnight]

why is that the case? doesn't sonar just flat out increase damage in that area by 500%? why would it scale better with the grakata?

Its would not scale better with a grakata any weapon that can do burst damage is able to exploit that power to crush things.

[Dipstick]

since the grakata crits very hard frequently, it does quite well with sonar. I think there is still some mystery with crits; How do they interact with elemental effects (and armor pen?)???

[LazyKnight]

since the grakata crits very hard frequently, it does quite well with sonar. I think there is still some mystery with crits; How do they interact with elemental effects (and armor pen?)???

Critical damage is worthless if you do not have many source of damage that can potentially critically hit. Its not that complex is just a few weapons in warframe really scale well with critical because the base chance on most weapons are bad.

 

Grakata has what a 15% base chance to critical with the chance mod it move to 15% to 37.5%. For the damage mod 120%+ it base critical damage goes from 2 to 3.2x 4.4 damage on a critical it doesn't modify the original damage only the part over 100%. Unless some can prove that wrong.http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1f40s0/improved_dps_spreadsheet/ca750ss Will test in the morning with weapons

 

Critical hits are badly misunderstood for some reason its not an additive function like sticking a fire mod your weapon. Critical hits are a chance that the damage you do will be multiplied by a modifier. This is why it is a very bad idea to sick a critical hit mod in any weapon before all other mods such as; serration, spit barrel and everything else is slotted.

Edited June 24, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Beldavid]

OPs math is off a little bit 

 

base + Damage + elemental mods * crit% + critdamage * multishot =

 

grakata with full mods at max( yes will require a bit of forma) 6996 burst dps , and 4139 dps sustained through ammo pool w/ reload time.

gorgon with full mods at max 6515  burst dps (not counting spool time) and 4247 dps through full ammo pool w/ reloads and spool time

 

the disparity on damage is small and comes down mostly to personal preference.

[Dasmir]

Grakata is like a Hard Carry, early game he will be more useless than a MK-skana but later is critical damage machine

[ZephRG]

Grakata has what a 15% base chance to critical with the chance mod it move to 15% to 37.5%. For the damage mod 120%+ it base critical damage goes from 2 to 3.2x damage on a critical it doesn't modify the original damage only the part over 100%. Unless some can prove that wrong.http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1f40s0/improved_dps_spreadsheet/ca750ss

 

I was curious and wanted to test this, so I unequipped all of my mods except for my maxed Point Strike and Vital Sense and went to M Prime to test it out (since level 1 grineer are both easily to calculate damage values for and can shoot at me all day without posing a threat). A non-crit shot did 9 damage to level 1 grineer on a headshot, 3 damage on a bodyshot, which is to be expected. On a crit, headshots did 39-40 damage, while bodyshots did 13 damage. This lines up more with the wiki's damage formula (2 * 2.2) than oneproduct's (which would only result in 28-29 damage on headshots and 9-10 damage on bodyshots). Either the mod works differently for Boltors or oneproduct is just flat-out wrong.

 

The Grakata certainly does require a lot of investment to become a truly good primary, though, and if DE does intend for higher-rank weapons to be superior to lower-rank ones as the Supra and Acrid are said to indicate (haven't tested them myself but the numbers seem insane), I'm not sure if it's ultimately worthwhile.

[LazyKnight]

I was curious and wanted to test this, so I unequipped all of my mods except for my maxed Point Strike and Vital Sense and went to M Prime to test it out (since level 1 grineer are both easily to calculate damage values for and can shoot at me all day without posing a threat). A non-crit shot did 9 damage to level 1 grineer on a headshot, 3 damage on a bodyshot, which is to be expected. On a crit, headshots did 39-40 damage, while bodyshots did 13 damage. This lines up more with the wiki's damage formula (2 * 2.2) than oneproduct's (which would only result in 28-29 damage on headshots and 9-10 damage on bodyshots). Either the mod works differently for Boltors or oneproduct is just flat-out wrong.

 

The Grakata certainly does require a lot of investment to become a truly good primary, though, and if DE does intend for higher-rank weapons to be superior to lower-rank ones as the Supra and Acrid are said to indicate (haven't tested them myself but the numbers seem insane), I'm not sure if it's ultimately worthwhile.

Meh I shouldn't trust people on reddit -_- . I assumed it was a nerf from latest hotfixes just tested with my latron, an akbolto and dread. Unless someone can test a Boltor I was dumb for not double checking oneproduct data its not right.

Edited June 24, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Dipstick]

I feel like I had a solid grasp on how the crit mods worked on base damage, I was just curious if they had ANY effect on elemental effects. 

 

Since I feel like the grakata snowballs so hard, maybe elemental damage is calculated from the individual hit (meaning if it crit, it would go off that), or base damage after seration.

[LazyKnight]

I feel like I had a solid grasp on how the crit mods worked on base damage, I was just curious if they had ANY effect on elemental effects. 

 

Since I feel like the grakata snowballs so hard, maybe elemental damage is calculated from the individual hit (meaning if it crit, it would go off that), or base damage after seration.

This is how elemental damage scales with critical hits its for the dread but it applies to the grakata. Can give you more information if people want it .

 

This is my dread that has a serration rank 10, vital sense rank 5, point strike rank 5 and piecing hit rank 5.

This is just for people asking how hard something can hit for that does 4.4x on critical hits with mods

 

4.4 damage 50% chance .5x4.4=2.2

 

150x1.65=247

247+150=397 

.6x397=238 ap damage

x3 for Grineer's head =714 The averaged damage done is 1570.8 at 50% chance.

 

On an M prime grinner it does 714 Ap damage when it critical it does 3144 damage in ap damage.

I tested this in game the math is right.

 

A grakata should do, can't test without making another Grakata....

 

37.5% to critically hit for 4.4 damage .375x4.4=1.65

 

9x.1.65=14.85

14.85+9=23.85

.6x23.85=14.31 AP elemental

x3 Ap damage for Grinner's heads 42.93 should critical hit for 188.892 average is 70.8

 

The math to figure out a guns dps on an npc needs to be individual calculated for every damage source. This makes using excel far easier its not something that you want to do by hand every time you want to see how strong your gun is verse another gun on a npc.

Edited June 24, 2013 by LazyKnight

[cocodog13]

Got a question:

 

Let me preface a bit first...I'm currently trying to level up a Gorgon and its going very slowly.  It's only Rank 8 atm and I can just put either a Serration or a Armor Pierce mod on it to augment the damage which is my main concern with it as there's nothing one can do about the accuracy.  I find it to be a chore to spin it up and kill a group of enemies with its current low damage and bullet spraying so I'm not having a lot of fun with it.  I'm going to keep at it as I've been told numerous times it becomes viable later on when modded properly.  I forsee the same problem with the Grakata (the next primary I'm planning on working on) only its going to be even worse with the low damage.

 

Basically what I want to know is does the Grakata spray as much as the Gorgon or can you be fairly accurate with it?

 

gorgon isnt a main gun to me. kill the trash with your secondary/s. the gorgon only comes out when the heavys show up or when you get to the boss...

[scaleblue]

This thread was terrible when it was alive.

 

Now it's necromanced and even worse now.

 

The problem with the original post is that it "mathematically" proves the Grakata does not live up to the Gorgon while getting the math wrong.  It thereby nullifies the conclusions therein, since they are based on faulty data.

 

Go use, say this tool to recreate your calculations, use the proper equation: then come back with your 60% DPS malarky.

Your data is all old, the new gorgon has been nerfed and shoots at 24 damage.

I didnt even check to sea what else on that chart is about 5 months old?

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Gorgon

please read properly ALSO, considering I said the gorgon has     >"OVER"<     60%...

Thank you for the next time you post with proper knowlegde, and politness.

Edited June 28, 2013 by scaleblue