On The Subject Of Orokin Reactors And Catalysts (And Weapon-Warframe Level Disparity Too)

[Salganos]

There was an alert today that lasted 12 hours.  This was very nice.  I got a free reactor.

 

However, I realize that this is a problem, as the reactor was effectively free.  Once it is built, I have one, minimal effort required.  This is also a problem because, in a sense, reactors have to be taken into account for high end play.  That they exist means high end play must be balanced such that they do not completely trivialize it, and yet then they are required for high end play to be viable.  As it is, the only way to get this item without spending money is, even with generous 12 hour long alerts, somewhat random and unfocused.

 

My only suggestions for this situation would be:

1) To have a reliable, if tedious means of collecting components and blueprints for components of reactors and catalysts, as a sort of phase of gameplay between the ultimate and penultimate tiers of gameplay.

 

2) To have reactors and catalysts level up from a minimal benefit to their current benefit, over time, or possibly with more upgrade phases to unlock their potential, to avoid devaluing platinum purchases, and to provide smoother curve from before to after.

 

3) The cash shop can continue to sell fully powered versions to bypass leveling them, and/or means of boosting an unupgraded one to that state with no effort, not unlike current foundry rush prices.

 

Installing a reactor/catalyst in a non-level 30 frame/weapon should still be possible, but probably tweaked in some way to prevent it from invalidating lower level combat overly much.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I want more progression in the game, and modifications to the reactor system would be good way to help gate that.

 

However, to have that work out right, there would probably have to be some sort of penalty for putting a level 30 weapon on a level 0 frame, because steamrolling everything is very lame.  Placing a penalty on mod usage on a weapon of higher level than a frame would be a good start, but we would definitely require mod-underclocking (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/38278-underclocking-mods/page-1) to prevent insanity from ensuing.  Or at least the ability to temporarily have more mods than allowable in a weapon and not be allowed to depart anywhere until it's fixed.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Salganos

[vasRayya]

If you were easily able to obtain everything you need, no one would buy anything. This is a company that needs to make money, so buy some platinum and support them. 

[Salganos]

I have bought platinum.  Read the post. I adressed the devaluation of platinum purchases and suggested measures to improve that value again.

 

Edit: hell, I even mentioned right at the start that getting a reactor for free just today was rather problematic.  This despite my earlier complaints about missing them.  Please actually READ posts before assuming things.  Makes me hate your entire species when you don't.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Salganos

[Namacyst]

Warframes cash system is based on "Pay for convenience" meaning... if you can't wait or don't have the time to get it through playing, buy it in the shop for Plat.

 

You can get everything except Warframe/Weapon slots, colours, Boosters and Sentinel cosmetics through playing the game and this is GOOD.

 

Placing a penalty on something you obtained either from playing or bought from shop is always a BAD idea.

 

If you own it then you should be allowed to use it. (That's something Steve would say)

[Salganos]

 

 

IWarframes cash system is based on "Pay for convenience" meaning... if you can't wait or don't have the time to get it through playing, buy it in the shop for Plat.

 

You can get everything except Warframe/Weapon slots, colours, Boosters and Sentinel cosmetics through playing the game and this is GOOD.

 

Placing a penalty on something you obtained either from playing or bought from shop is always a BAD idea.

 

If you own it then you should be allowed to use it. (That's something Steve would say)

 

My suggestions do not have a penalty for things bought with money, as written in point 3.

 

Things that are obtained through actual playing would simply require more playing to fully unlock.  Right now reactors and catalysts are still technically on a mass temporal lottery.  Very little gameplay is required, just the right random time of day followed by a day's wait, and maybe some resource farming.

 

My suggestion involves actual playing.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Salganos

[Loswaith]

Personally it would be nice to see catalysts need the extra 30 ranks to be earned, mainly because it increases the life of the weapon, and slows down overall weapon progression, as you tend to jump from weapon to weapon fairly quickly.

 

Reactors on the other hand are ok as they are, mainly because warframes get inherant extras for gaining ranks, such as health , shields and energy, so would need extra additional work to stop the ancillary ranking up on the frames.  Frames dont generally need the slower progression as much either as gaining them (ie farming and build time) is a slower process than gaining weapons (ie buying them).

 

I wouldnt want to see either of them toned down based on the content you are doing however as thats simply a choice. Sometimes it can be fun to have the option to be vastly overpowered.

[Salganos]

Personally it would be nice to see catalysts need the extra 30 ranks to be earned, mainly because it increases the life of the weapon, and slows down overall weapon progression, as you tend to jump from weapon to weapon fairly quickly.

 

Reactors on the other hand are ok as they are, mainly because warframes get inherant extras for gaining ranks, such as health , shields and energy, so would need extra additional work to stop the ancillary ranking up on the frames.  Frames dont generally need the slower progression as much either as gaining them (ie farming and build time) is a slower process than gaining weapons (ie buying them).

 

I wouldnt want to see either of them toned down based on the content you are doing however as thats simply a choice. Sometimes it can be fun to have the option to be vastly overpowered.

 

Being vastly overpowered is fine, I'd just like it if people weren't AS vastly overpowered when wielding high level weapons on low level frames.  I'd also like it if missions scaled enemy numbers with player numbers and didn't lag so often.  Multiplayer might be as fun as singleplayer more often if that were the case, rather than involve a lot of laggy steamrolling.  People would still have the option of taking a high level frame in a low level mission with no penalties aside from presumably crappier rewards.

 

Some of that would require different matchmaking criteria though, and I don't expect that to change right away or even while in beta.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Salganos

[TGPhoenix]

I understand where you are coming from on your idea, but you do have to remember that the orokin reactors/catalysts are likely one of DE's most reliable sources of income from this game. To implement a system that would allow players to farm up as many of them as they needed rather than being required to wait on the alerts would likely cause a large number of players, that otherwise would have purchased them in the market, to go farm them instead. This would have a direct effect on the amount of money DE is able to devote to continuing to improve and expand the game we are all here to enjoy.  I don't think there is a very good chance that your idea would be implemented as it stands.

 

One possible alternate solution (shout out to my friend Excitonex for suggesting it as we discussed this thread) - Have a way for clans to work together to produce 1 reactor/catalyst through a combined effort. This would still leave a chance for them to be reliably farmed, but would require a group effort and be a process that would have to be repeated for each member (or those that are deemed worthy, depending on the attitude/leadership of the clan).  It would be much slower and require a great effort by many in order to complete without getting the blueprints from an alert.

[Salganos]

I understand where you are coming from on your idea, but you do have to remember that the orokin reactors/catalysts are likely one of DE's most reliable sources of income from this game. To implement a system that would allow players to farm up as many of them as they needed rather than being required to wait on the alerts would likely cause a large number of players, that otherwise would have purchased them in the market, to go farm them instead. This would have a direct effect on the amount of money DE is able to devote to continuing to improve and expand the game we are all here to enjoy.  I don't think there is a very good chance that your idea would be implemented as it stands.

 

One possible alternate solution (shout out to my friend Excitonex for suggesting it as we discussed this thread) - Have a way for clans to work together to produce 1 reactor/catalyst through a combined effort. This would still leave a chance for them to be reliably farmed, but would require a group effort and be a process that would have to be repeated for each member (or those that are deemed worthy, depending on the attitude/leadership of the clan).  It would be much slower and require a great effort by many in order to complete without getting the blueprints from an alert.

 

The need to level it up was partly suggested to ensure people would have to play the object they wanted to boost for at least some time rather than simply getting the boost for free.  There are other possible changes too, like making the built reactor/catalyst not do anything until the boostable item is at level 30, and once both are maxed it works the same as the platinum-bought one, which would be unchanged.  There are many ways to give this game a smoother, clearer, and less erratic sense of progression than it currently has without invalidating the cash shop.

 

That alternate solution is a good one though.  It isn't even really alternate; they aren't mutually exclusive.

 

I also think we are in agreement that getting reactors and catalysts should be quite involved.

 

Edit: I think they could be something one would work towards between levels 20 and 30 on a frame, perhaps for most of that level range, but other ways can work too.  Requiring that one use the frame or weapons to boost while doing it would be a good idea, and preventing the abuse of maxed-out weapons on lower level frames would be needed to keep it balanced.

I want some long-term and challenging goals to work for, and I feel this would be a very cohesive system for delivering that.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Salganos

[vieuxchat]

Yep. the difference between a charged weapon and an uncharged is huge. Add to that the prestige system that will let you put more mods (in fact more power) and you can have a huge gap of power that dev will need to balance.

[Salganos]

I've been thinking a bit, so I'm going to write this down before I forget it. Think of it what you will.

 

 

Orokin reactors and catalysts are lost technology. Finding them intact is rare, and such articles cost an arm and a leg to acquire (i.e.: dollars from our wallets :p ).  Producing them as separate and fully functional units requires extremely advanced techniques aided by sophisticated but flawed devices that will not survive the operation, produced in small quantities by the Corprus and Grineer (the current "blueprints"). Without them, the results are too unstable to assemble without disastrous effects.

 

These devices are produced using the combined might of ancient Orokin machinery, held by the these two factions in their securest fortresses and their stealthiest labs. They use them to maintain the Solar Rails and empower their strongest warriors. They are heavily guarded, and endless reinforcements are always moments away. The few they have yet to acquire only remain so because they are buried in the depths of ancient Orokin facilities, overrun with hordes of Infested so thick and numerous that the combined might of the Corprus and Grineer would be needed to take them down and make it out with the prize. Neither can agree on who will get the technology, or anything else, and so there it remains.

 

We do not have the resources to take these machines for ourselves. The enemy is too numerous and vigilant to allow it. We must sneak in. Yet we can not produce the disposable assemblers at will, as multiple Orokin machines and artifacts must be brought together, and we can not sufficiently control their movements.

 

The only remaining solution available to us is to use some form of buffer, something to stabilize the reactors as they are built, to siphon off the excess power. The process will be flawed; the buffer will be inseparable from the final result. So we must break into these facilities, strongholds, and lost hellholes, find the ancient machinery, and build the technology straight into our frames and weapons piece by piece, step by step. Then we must get out before the hammer strikes.

 

The final results will likely still be flawed and uncalibrated, and time will need to be spent and experience gained to bring them to their full potentials. Though perhaps, with proper technique (i.e.: choice of the devs), and with strong understanding of our gear (having it at level 30), we may be able to squeeze a fraction of the final power out of the incomplete tech to help us along the way (i.e.: partial access to reactor/catalyst levels on partial reactors/catalysts).

 

And that is all I have to offer.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Salganos

[NotaCobra]

Well...

 

Actually, this inspires me a little:
 

 

Many people have wanted some more ways to level up and improve once you've hit 30.

Those with lots of time.

 

So what if;

Upon reaching level 30, a slot opens up for a "reverse engineered catalyst/reactor" (RE Reactor/Catalyst)

A reverse engineered catalyst/reactor comes from the current blueprints; That is, if you craft it, it's not an authentic orokin artifact, it's a reverse engineered one.

 

Once crafted, and equipped, the reverse engineered catalyst/reactor can be levelled up with affinity given to it's respective slot, that is, warframe XP will upgrade an RE Reactor.

As the artifact levels up, it grants additional mod points, equalling a current Orokin Reactor/Catalyst once it reaches it's max level.

 

Thus, players have more to do once they've finished levelling, alert missions awarding these artifacts no longer devalue the cash shop.

And players with a lot of money, but not so much time, can simply buy the original version, doubling the default slots at all levels.