In Response To The Mods "underclocking" Statements Made In The Stream By Scott

[xenapan]

I don't think you get the magnitude of what you're saying. I believe I have my math correct with this, though please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Lets say I want one set of serration mods, Levels 0 - 10.

 

You would need a total of 1034 serration mods, this is for optimal exp/credits, you would require more credits and mods to use other mods types or just more a lot more credits to use fusion cores.

 

To put this in perspective, you contend that you would have multiple multi-level mods (2xlvl 10, 2xlvl 9 etc) then it would be x however many guns I'd like to maintain.

 

Consider also that this is not a system that helps with the "Warframe is a game with a bit more consequence" statement. Introducing a time expanding, irritating system like this does not make it have more consequences, at worst you have to lose some fusion mods to level a mod back - big deal. What it does do is that it removes the OPTION factor. I ask any player, why would you risk cash, time and mods on adjusting your mods to fit another frame, when you could just keep your current system and be at near peak ability? If they really wanted consequences, it really should be that mods should be removed and turned into a skill tree system that you cannot reset, and have to start all over again to do so. That is has consequences if you make a bad decision.

Thats a horrible example.

The energy required for any mod is fairly low. If you are seriously using a weapon you can get enough energy to equip any SINGLE mod. Maxed out hornet strike is 14 points. Before you get there, you can put in combinations of hornet strike (a lower level one) with other damage mods. to make up for the lost damage. Once you get to 14 it never comes off again. In reality you will simply slot on and off smaller value mods that still improve the weapon along with the more important one. You could do a level 3 hornet strike (7 energy) and a level 10 (14 energy) and use just the 3 until you get enough energy to hit the 10. The rest of the possible mods out there for a pistol only have 5 ranks. So realistically you only need a small and a maxed out version of the mod. Plus some mods are just overkill.. rank 10 steel fiber? vitality maybe. Only time you would EVER be using more than 1 mod that maxes out at rank 10 is on a frame. Chances are you are also going to potato the frame since given the time and effort put into acquiring one you are very unlikely to sell it. which also vastly increases the chances you will potato and thus be experiencing double growth and with the exp curve as it is, you will be able to use that maxed out mod in no time.

 

The basis of your argument (needing all ranks of the same mod) is full of holes.

[CaptMytre]

Thats a horrible example.

The energy required for any mod is fairly low. If you are seriously using a weapon you can get enough energy to equip any SINGLE mod. Maxed out hornet strike is 14 points. Before you get there, you can put in combinations of hornet strike (a lower level one) with other damage mods. to make up for the lost damage. Once you get to 14 it never comes off again. In reality you will simply slot on and off smaller value mods that still improve the weapon along with the more important one. You could do a level 3 hornet strike (7 energy) and a level 10 (14 energy) and use just the 3 until you get enough energy to hit the 10. The rest of the possible mods out there for a pistol only have 5 ranks. So realistically you only need a small and a maxed out version of the mod. Plus some mods are just overkill.. rank 10 steel fiber? vitality maybe. Only time you would EVER be using more than 1 mod that maxes out at rank 10 is on a frame. Chances are you are also going to potato the frame since given the time and effort put into acquiring one you are very unlikely to sell it. which also vastly increases the chances you will potato and thus be experiencing double growth and with the exp curve as it is, you will be able to use that maxed out mod in no time.

 

The basis of your argument (needing all ranks of the same mod) is full of holes.

 

I don't know what game you're playing, but clearly it isn't Warframe.

 

You seem to totally forget that there are multiple weapons, all having different optimal builds, so it wouldn't be one or two different level mods, it would be at least three for pretty much ever 5 rank mod in pistols. I'm not even going to start on how many mods I'd need to find to build 3 different levels.

 

So please, before you try and make an argument, please try and understand what I'm actually talking about. My base argument isn't full of holes, because that is the level of customisation needed for 27+ weapons. To further my point, I was actually wrong with my math, apparently it is 2000+ mods required for all ranks of a 10 rank mod.

 

I've yet to see any arguments as to WHY this wouldn't be good, or at least ones that can't be easily disproven.

Edited May 14, 2013 by CaptMytre

[PaperAlien]

I agree completely with this. I was very taken aback when they stated this viewpoint, I see no problem with having a level 10 mod that has taken forever to level being able to act as a mod of any lower level. Not many people will actually use a destructive unfusion system, and it won't really solve the problem of people being uncertain about whether or not to advance an expensive mod further up in fear of it becoming unusable.

[Wojek]

I think this whole unfusion/underclocking is a symptom of a bigger problem the game currently has, at least in my opinion. Since with increasing levels the enemies keep on dealing more damage and are getting tougher and tougher, the increased damage mods are mandatory to use, as well as the increased shields and hitpoints mods. Currently all you can do is mod your weapons and frame for maximum damage/durability, not for utility.

With my Ash I unequipped the Teleport skill, because I needed the additional power to fuel my redirection and vitality mods. My boltor only sports Serration, Cryo Rounds and Multishot (got no potatoe in it, and the multishot just adds so much delicious damage). Furthermore I have the feeling that armor pen damage is mandatory on any non-piercing weapon and shock damage is just complete &#!.

Sadly I don't see this changing unless the game gets a complete and massive overhaul - so if the game stay this way, the underclocking would actually be the much better option in the long run.

You see, there's also to consider what happens when somebody picks up this game. I think it's much more likely that a new guy will spend real money on this when it's 'casual' and 'easy' from the get-go, not when he gets frustrated because all the time he poured into his rank 4 hornet strike is now completely wasted.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Wojek

[ArsVampyre]

Thats a horrible example.

The energy required for any mod is fairly low. If you are seriously using a weapon you can get enough energy to equip any SINGLE mod. Maxed out hornet strike is 14 points. Before you get there, you can put in combinations of hornet strike (a lower level one) with other damage mods. to make up for the lost damage. Once you get to 14 it never comes off again. In reality you will simply slot on and off smaller value mods that still improve the weapon along with the more important one. You could do a level 3 hornet strike (7 energy) and a level 10 (14 energy) and use just the 3 until you get enough energy to hit the 10. The rest of the possible mods out there for a pistol only have 5 ranks. So realistically you only need a small and a maxed out version of the mod. Plus some mods are just overkill.. rank 10 steel fiber? vitality maybe. Only time you would EVER be using more than 1 mod that maxes out at rank 10 is on a frame. Chances are you are also going to potato the frame since given the time and effort put into acquiring one you are very unlikely to sell it. which also vastly increases the chances you will potato and thus be experiencing double growth and with the exp curve as it is, you will be able to use that maxed out mod in no time.

 

The basis of your argument (needing all ranks of the same mod) is full of holes.

I'm guessing English isn't your first language, so I applaud you for trying, but I don't understand what you're getting at?

 

I change the mods on my frames and weapons as frequently as new energy becomes available so I can maximize their effectiveness.  I will change the mods on my weapons depending on an expected foe; if I'm going to be fighting grineer, I'm going to put armor piercing damage mods on my weapons.  In addition, I'm going to level new weapons that can't fit a max level serration or hornet strike mod.

 

Ideally in this situation, I have a mod at every rank so I can pick and choose based on the value of the mod and it's energy cost and my energy availability.  With mod underclocking, I can maintain one mod, lower it's rank temporarily and have it lowered in both energy cost and effectiveness, but I don't have to have a ridiculous number of redundant and seldom used mods to do it.

 

Again, do the math.  Assuming you use only like mods to maximize efficience.

Rank 0 is start, so free.  Rank 1 costs 1 extra mod.  So maintaining a spread from 0-1 costs 3 mods.  A rank two mod costs 2 additional for a total of four.  So 4+2+1 or 7 mods for 3 ranks of that mod.  The next one will add 8 mods to the cost, then 16, then 32, then 64, then 128, then 256, then 512, then 1024. 2047 mods if you want to cover a mod from rank 0-10.  Do you think that's reasonable? Rank 0-5?  31 mods.

 

For most of the warframe powers, you don't need a complete set.  That may change a bit with primes, but for the most part there are only going to be one or two mod cards total you'll need for warframe powers.  But vitality and redirection?  Hornet Strike or barrel diffusion?

 

It starts to get excessive to contemplate maintaining.  Now I do realize that right now there aren't enough weapons to justify maintaining a full set, and I do realize that requiring you re-level new mods for weapons adds to the grind that keeps the game going (or drags it down).  But that's the part that isn't fun.  It's not fun knowing you could be doing better but aren't because you don't have the energy to support your high level mods and don't have the mods to maximize your current output.

 

And the developers solution?  It's a joke.

[CaptMytre]

Bumping this back up.

[Guest]

Agreed.

 

I was shocked when Scott mentioned that "unfusion" idea. How could he not see how poor a system that is within five seconds of thinking about it? It stunts variety, nobody would dare unfuse a mod, especially when all materials put into it would be lost, meaning you'd have to GRIND IT ALL UP AGAIN.

[TehJumpingJawa]

Totally agree with Op.

The system as it stands requires far too much micromanagement(manually fusing mods) , is inflexible(switching loadouts) , and lacks usability (linear list of every mod at every level).

It's simply not fit for purpose.

The livestream suggestion of unfusing was obviously not thought out, nor was the 'actions should have consequences' reasoning against the community's underclocking proposal.

As u8 has done nothing to address these issues, I'm compelled to knock up a prototype that demonstrates how the system should be implemented. Though I'm away for a week, so it won't be until the week after.

Edited May 26, 2013 by TehJumpingJawa

[CaptMytre]

I've just realised, with Forma now out, this is even worse. Once you use it, it resets your levels, and you won't be able to use any mods till you've leveled it quiet a bit, since all your mods will generally be high/maxed out.

[Wojek]

bumping for justice

[Thypari2013]

read this and you understand why they chose un-fusing:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/48649-important-general-question-in-understanding-warframe-balancing/

 

Read it. I mean it.

[ArsVampyre]

It doesn't explain anything. ?

[Callback]

Unfusion is a horrible idea.  The point of underclocking is to prevent you from needing to fuse up multiples of the same mod.  Unfusion solves NOTHING.  I should be able to build up 1 max level magazine size mod, say pistol, and adjust it to 15% for dual broncos, 25% for lex, or 30% for any larger clip weapon, and not waste energy.  It is insane to think that unfusion is even a remotely good idea.

[SerosTau]

While I can see what the OP wants here, I agree with the devs.  There is a certain amount of 'what are you doing' with your mods, and it should carry penalties. 

 

What's more bothersome is the propensity of my fellow players here to try to min max their builds in such a way, to which I have two things to say.

 

First off, if you're so obsessed with flawless builds, go start building your spreadsheets.  In fact, build your own-don't use anyone else's.  Real min maxers plan everything to the nth degree, so since we're talking about those kind of people, have fun with that-but don't use their work. 

 

Secondly, 'will kill experimentation'?  Honestly, do you hear yourself?  If the step back system isn't implemented in the way you want it, it will kill experimentation?  Not only is that unlikely, it completely fails to consider the amount of learning every player does for themselves.  If you go to the store, buy a coffee maker and a griddle, and try to fuse them into an unholy bacon grilling coffee machine, then realize what a TERRIBLE mistake science has wrought, and try to bring both things back for a refund, you get laughed at.  I think the same concept applies here.

[RedFaceGeneral]

EDIT: nvm i had misread it. My idea was same as OP.

Edited May 31, 2013 by RedFaceGeneral

[CaptMytre]

While I can see what the OP wants here, I agree with the devs.  There is a certain amount of 'what are you doing' with your mods, and it should carry penalties. 

 

What's more bothersome is the propensity of my fellow players here to try to min max their builds in such a way, to which I have two things to say.

 

First off, if you're so obsessed with flawless builds, go start building your spreadsheets.  In fact, build your own-don't use anyone else's.  Real min maxers plan everything to the nth degree, so since we're talking about those kind of people, have fun with that-but don't use their work. 

 

Secondly, 'will kill experimentation'?  Honestly, do you hear yourself?  If the step back system isn't implemented in the way you want it, it will kill experimentation?  Not only is that unlikely, it completely fails to consider the amount of learning every player does for themselves.  If you go to the store, buy a coffee maker and a griddle, and try to fuse them into an unholy bacon grilling coffee machine, then realize what a TERRIBLE mistake science has wrought, and try to bring both things back for a refund, you get laughed at.  I think the same concept applies here.

 

That's a horrible comparison. I mean it, that has to be one of the worst I've ever seen.

 

I'll give you a decent one.

 

You buy a lego set, it can be built many times, but to take it apart and build it again, you have to pay for a new set.

 

You fail to see that there are multiple frames and weapons. I have 8+ frames, 20+ weapons. I'm not going to unfuse my mods so they work best whenever I wish to swap a frame/weapon. Like wise, I'm not going to carry 5 different versions of serration so that I can use it at it's best.

 

... and yes, it will kill experimentation. Are you going to trying different builds if it means you have to unfuse your high level mods to see if it works well with another weapon? No, because I don't think your that $&*&*#(%&, I don't think any sane person would. If the build isn't as good, you just wasted potentially hundreds of thousands worth of credit and hundreds of mods, and this is just talking about ONE weapon/frame. If you want your mods to fit another frame/weapon, you could blow the credit and mod loss into the millions and thousands, respectively.

 

Regarding your "obsessed with flawless builds" statement, I really don't mind if mines the absolute best or not. What I'm annoyed at more so is that I can make a good build for one frame, and ruin every other frame I have. I'll end up wasting slots, or be unable to use two mods I'd like because one of my other mods uses too much power, even though I don't want it to.

 

read this and you understand why they chose un-fusing:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/48649-important-general-question-in-understanding-warframe-balancing/

 

Read it. I mean it.

 

Don't post your irrelevant crap here, please. The fact that we can have multiple frames means that frames are tools, not singular identities. Even if they were to go with identities, that would be counter-productive for DE due to frame and weapon sales rapidly decreasing or non-existent. I hope you understand what that would mean.

 

While this may seem I agree with your ridiculous argument, it assumes the position that a frame has a "best build", which is entirely wrong. I can make my rhino a proper tank class, a heavy meleer, a AOE - stunner or a heavy ranged support.

 

You need to think of frames as a tool box, not individual tools. What's in the tool box, and what features that tool box have, is different from frame to frame. Thus, you customise your tool box for what problem lies ahead of you.

Edited June 3, 2013 by CaptMytre