Discussion: Dojo Sparring System And Possibly Issues

[Ferriwind]

Note!!!: PVP will only be 1v1 and only between clan members, and may not extend into a larger system of pvp.

 

 

Intro

In the next update, it is likely that a 1v1 dueling option is available between clan member. I'm exciting because I love pvp. It was interesting and sad to hear that DE would be only focusing on Pve and I didn't push the subject. But now, now we can discuss it.

 

There are a few problems that DE probably resolved or took into account already. Nonetheless, they should be discuss because people will still complain when they get br'ed by their clan member. ;)

 

Actually, it seems pvp will be with all the same values as in pve. The wall of text is just my take on pvp needing some changes to balance.

 

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Shields, Health, and Weapon Dps

The most obvious problem is how to balance the weapon damage and shield and health values without removing the player modifications. Player modification is an important part of pvp so it needs to stay. Altering the mod values would be a little tedious to balance but may be necessary.

I think the easiest path would be to just increase shield values a little bit and increase health values to the roof. This would help to balance the disparity between warframe abilities also. You won't get one shot by a Slash Dash.

 

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Armor Effect

Another more subtle problem is the armor effect. Armor reduces damage from normal weapons. But it does nothing to Boltor and other armor reducing weapons. So armor should also have a lower effect on armor ignore while keeping it's effect on normal weapons. This is really necessary because the Rhino has a 50% movement speed reduction but an armor value of 150. This way while the Rhino shouldn't be able to cheese other warframes with his armor, other warframes shouldn't be able to cheese the Rhino with a Boltor.

 

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Crowd Control/ Stun Lock

Probably the most complicated problem is crowd control. What do we do with crowd control? It's not really a problem but at the same time, it can potential ruin pvp. It's not really a problem because many crowd control still require aiming. Or can't affect players. For example. Freeze needs to be aimed and Mind Control and Chaos can't affect the players like it would normally affect mobs.

Freeze can rip your shields and a large chunk of your health if you get hit by it, but it's hard to aim. Rhino Stomp, however, can be frustrating in pvp. It's easy to aim so a Rhino can just stomp on any player with one skill.

 

So certain cc like Rhino Stomp may need to have a lower duration. There's also the need for diminishing returns on cc. That means that if a player is affect by Rhino Stomp or Freeze, they cannot be stunlocked by a spam of cc skills like said skills of Rhino Stomp and Freeze. Other skills that need to be addressed are Invisibility, Radial Blind, Iron Skin, Rejuvenation, Smoke Screen and the likes.

 

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Energy System and Regeneration

There also needs to be a modified energy system. All players should get a small pool of energy upon entering the pvp arena/sparring room etc. They should also get a very good energy regeneration like 10-25 energy per sec so it won't just be a shooter game after the energy is spent.

 

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Discussion and Questions Guidelines

So guys, discuss. Everyone should comment since pvp is actually going to be real in warframe. We need to limit the flame that gets ignited by some of the updates so go for it. Here are some questions to go by if you want to use them.

 

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- How much shields and health should we get in pvp?

 

- Do Rhino Stomp, Freeze, Invisibility, Smokescreen, Iron Skin, Crush, Rejuvenation, Link etc need to be balanced and if so how would you balance some of these skills? I may have missed a skill you think needs to be discuss, feel free to bring it up.

 

- How much energy should we get and how much should we regen?

 

- How much of a role should armor play in reducing damage in pvp or should we just give Frost and Rhino a bit more movement speed?

 

- Sniper weapons aren't that good in pvp if we have the normal health and shields and are horrible if the health gets boosted. But at the same time, no one wants to fight a sniper and get one shot. How should Sniper weapons be balanced?

 

- What kind of map should we get? A very small sparring room? A bit larger room with lots of cover? A FULL MAP? Remember that it is only a spar/duel so there's no capture the flag or domination yet(if and only if pvp gets a good reception, these are the modes I think would be introduced first since each warframe has a distinct role, these modes will make the most use of them).

 

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TL;DR

Need to change Shield Values, Health Values, Armor Values, Crowd Control duration or Spammability, Starting Energy and Energy Regen for PVP?

Edited May 11, 2013 by Stygi

[MrGrae]

They have already said NOTHING will be balanced. Nothing will be changed. The gear you have in PvE, values and stats, will be what you PvP with. That's your lot.

[Ferriwind]

O M G, really? Well we can still discuss this. I think there might be flamers though.. who knows...

[TheGreatGust]

Personally glad that they will not make any balances not because I don't want PvP. I just don't don't want them to balance it for the sake of making it fair on both PvE and PvP aspects and making it somehow nerf PvE aspects. Even if they would be two separate things and unaffected by each other, I like the PvE focus more so than PvP because honestly...there's other games for that and this is a nice change. I think focusing on PvE is the best thing for Warframe to do. PvP would be just...meh in this game, really nothing other than a small fun thing to do and I'm happy it'll be like this.

[SolluxCaptorTA]

Warframe will be a PvE game. PvP will occur, but won't be balanced because it's not the priority. You make some good points, and I think the people at DE should look over this, but PvP is a minimum priority.

[Quazar123]

At the moment it sounds to me like they are playing with the idea of pvp and from what they said it is just a 1 v 1 spar and is for fun not for competitive ranking or anything like that. I however am looking forward to playing my brother with us both being ash with the same weapons and mods on both just to see who out of the two of us is better with aiming/stratagy things like that. I agree that warframe should be primarily PvË and shouldn't focus on PvP, like you said Pvp is just a fun thing to do at times. I have never been one to play PvP intensive games and i have seen PvP be the cause of some games downfall.

[pdxdubin]

Intro

In the next update, it is likely that a 1v1 dueling option is available between clan member. I'm exciting because I love pvp. It was interesting and sad to hear that DE would be only focusing on Pve and I didn't push the subject. But now, now we can discuss it.

 

There are a few problems that DE probably resolved or took into account already. Nonetheless, they should be discuss because people will still complain when they get br'ed by their clan member. ;)

 

Actually, it seems pvp will be with all the same values as in pve. The wall of text is just my take on pvp needing some changes to balance.

 

Shields, Health, and Weapon Dps

The most obvious problem is how to balance the weapon damage and shield and health values without removing the player modifications. Player modification is an important part of pvp so it needs to stay. Altering the mod values would be a little tedious to balance but may be necessary.

I think the easiest path would be to just increase shield values a little bit and increase health values to the roof. This would help to balance the disparity between warframe abilities also. You won't get one shot by a Slash Dash.

 

Armor Effect

Another more subtle problem is the armor effect. Armor reduces damage from normal weapons. But it does nothing to Boltor and other armor reducing weapons. So armor should also have a lower effect on armor ignore while keeping it's effect on normal weapons. This is really necessary because the Rhino has a 50% movement speed reduction but an armor value of 150. This way while the Rhino shouldn't be able to cheese other warframes with his armor, other warframes shouldn't be able to cheese the Rhino with a Boltor.

 

Crowd Control/ Stun Lock

Probably the most complicated problem is crowd control. What do we do with crowd control? It's not really a problem but at the same time, it can potential ruin pvp. It's not really a problem because many crowd control still require aiming. Or can't affect players. For example. Freeze needs to be aimed and Mind Control and Chaos can't affect the players like it would normally affect mobs.

Freeze can rip your shields and a large chunk of your health if you get hit by it, but it's hard to aim. Rhino Stomp, however, can be frustrating in pvp. It's easy to aim so a Rhino can just stomp on any player with one skill.

 

So certain cc like Rhino Stomp may need to have a lower duration. There's also the need for diminishing returns on cc. That means that if a player is affect by Rhino Stomp or Freeze, they cannot be stunlocked by a spam of cc skills like said skills of Rhino Stomp and Freeze. Other skills that need to be addressed are Invisibility, Radial Blind, Iron Skin, Rejuvenation, Smoke Screen and the likes.

 

Energy System and Regeneration

There also needs to be a modified energy system. All players should get a small pool of energy upon entering the pvp arena/sparring room etc. They should also get a very good energy regeneration like 10-25 energy per sec so it won't just be a shooter game after the energy is spent.

 

Discussion and Questions Guidelines

So guys, discuss. Everyone should comment since pvp is actually going to be real in warframe. We need to limit the flame that gets ignited by some of the updates so go for it. Here are some questions to go by if you want to use them.

 

- How much shields and health should we get in pvp?

 

- Do Rhino Stomp, Freeze, Invisibility, Smokescreen, Iron Skin, Crush, Rejuvenation, Link etc need to be balanced and if so how would you balance some of these skills? I may have missed a skill you think needs to be discuss, feel free to bring it up.

 

- How much energy should we get and how much should we regen?

 

- How much of a role should armor play in reducing damage in pvp or should we just give Frost and Rhino a bit more movement speed?

 

- Sniper weapons aren't that good in pvp if we have the normal health and shields and are horrible if the health gets boosted. But at the same time, no one wants to fight a sniper and get one shot. How should Sniper weapons be balanced?

 

- What kind of map should we get? A very small sparring room? A bit larger room with lots of cover? A FULL MAP? Remember that it is only a spar/duel so there's no capture the flag or domination yet(these are the modes I think would be introduced first since each warframe has a distinct role, these modes will make the most use of them).

 

TL;DR

Need to change Shield Values, Health Values, Armor Values, Crowd Control duration or Spammability, Starting Energy and Energy Regen for PVP?

 

 

Nothing should be changed except for the ratios.

 

I think your right, the health and armor ratings should be adjustable before the match, or at least 5x as to what they are now.

 

 

Also what will nyx do with mind control?  how will that work?

 

 

And what about invisibility >XD

 

i still think it would be fun!

[Ferriwind]

They only said pvp will be 1v1 and for clan members. As long as they don't add achievements or rewards for pvp, there should be no problems with the community. But many players love pvp and the competitive nature of it so they will want to pvp and do it often.

[Yesodjun]

Look for alternative toughs about this: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/42694-overral-ideassuggestions-for-future-devs-come-here/

[Aggh]

Personally glad that they will not make any balances not because I don't want PvP. I just don't don't want them to balance it for the sake of making it fair on both PvE and PvP aspects and making it somehow nerf PvE aspects. Even if they would be two separate things and unaffected by each other, I like the PvE focus more so than PvP because honestly...there's other games for that and this is a nice change. I think focusing on PvE is the best thing for Warframe to do. PvP would be just...meh in this game, really nothing other than a small fun thing to do and I'm happy it'll be like this.

This is a stupid point.  There are piles of PvE games too.

[NotaCobra]

Ready for an even better idea for pvp?

 

You pick a character.

You have a set shield and health, and only the first 3 abilities (So no crush for example)

Weapons are scattered around the map.

You start with melee.

Kill other people.

[Mietz]

I'm still unclear how this is supposed to be any kind of interesting system where i can just jam 4 and instakill my opponent.

 

So is this like whoever presses 4 wins?

[Ferriwind]

Ready for an even better idea for pvp?

 

You pick a character.

You have a set shield and health, and only the first 3 abilities (So no crush for example)

Weapons are scattered around the map.

You start with melee.

Kill other people.

Haha, interesting, but for now it's just a 1v1 spar. Having no ults could be balanced. It's actually a solid suggestion since almost all the ults are aoe nukes. Some warframes like Nyx and Trinity need a toned down version of their ults.

 

I'm still unclear how this is supposed to be any kind of interesting system where i can just jam 4 and instakill my opponent.

 

So is this like whoever presses 4 wins?

Well, with higher health and shields, you can't just one shot someone with a modded ultimate. Ultimates with cc would need some nerf to the cc. Still, since, the 4 ability costs a lot of energy, it might not be the best thing to use. Pull has a knockdown, so you could potentially do more damage with guns than with one press of Crush. Crush has a long animation for both the affected and Mag so she can't attack while using Crush.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Stygi

[Mietz]

Well, with higher health and shields, you can't just one shot someone with a modded ultimate. 

 

So dueling for low-rank frames is #*($%%@?

 

I mean around lvl 15-20 would be the place where you cant oneshot someone, if built tanky and with taters.

 

But before that it should be possible with most frames.

[MusicGamer]

At the moment it sounds to me like they are playing with the idea of pvp and from what they said it is just a 1 v 1 spar and is for fun not for competitive ranking or anything like that. I however am looking forward to playing my brother with us both being ash with the same weapons and mods on both just to see who out of the two of us is better with aiming/stratagy things like that. I agree that warframe should be primarily PvË and shouldn't focus on PvP, like you said Pvp is just a fun thing to do at times. I have never been one to play PvP intensive games and i have seen PvP be the cause of some games downfall.

I honestly think it should stay in a sparring capacity.  I find that competitive rankings can sometimes strain relations between clan members, which is somewhat counterproductive to the devs' goal of getting people to join clans.

 

The game should indeed stay PvE, but it would be nice to include a mode where the opponents are actually intelligent (i.e. human players).  Hence why I think a sparring mode would be an excellent idea come the next update.

[FatRefrigerator]

How about we finally enjoy a game that isn't riddled with the annoyance that PvP most often can be. Let's just shut up and kill some Grineer.

[Ferriwind]

So dueling for low-rank frames is #*($%%@?

 

I mean around lvl 15-20 would be the place where you cant oneshot someone, if built tanky and with taters.

 

But before that it should be possible with most frames.

There would still be skill involve when not using large aoe ults. And it goes without saying that, a warframe with mods will have a harder time trying to best a warframe with mods, including on the weapons.

[Tetsmeha]

I think DE will take the easy way out and just make 1v1 pvp between dojo clan members used the same PVE mods.

 

It's lazy, but at least it's a start.

[Ferriwind]

I think DE will take the easy way out and just make 1v1 pvp between dojo clan members used the same PVE mods.

 

It's lazy, but at least it's a start.

It's not really a lazy way. They prob have stats for pvp like with pve. Anyway, going back the the previous point, they want to see how pve based values work in pvp before they try to balance stuff.

 

Although, it could be argued that they should have playtested pvp themselves or using private testers from the founders, they are prioritizing update 8 with clans and stuff and not pvp. So I understand. I don't mind if they balance it afterwards as long as they don't take a year to balance one hero like in LoL, which still have heros which aren't viable :>.

[Tetsmeha]

Latency isn't on here are you serious?

[Ferriwind]

Latency isn't on here are you serious?

It's only 1v1 and one player is hosting so any lag will probably be because of internet or distance. I really don't know. Nothing the players can do code wise about the lag but give feedback and hope for improvements.

[c_man_ninja_gun]

The Pvp is not a serous thing. It is not going to become a PvP game. It is just a way for you and your friends to goof around. In the end it is a PvE game and it always will be.