Please Remove The New Version Of Wave Dashing: Infinite Melee Slide Attack

[Mak_Gohae]

I don't even understand why it's an issue. If you don't like the skill, don't use it?

I feel like people are complaining about stuff just for the sake of complaining now.

 

The issue isn't self control but the choices other people make, i was in a game where i person did this the whole stage and rest of the players werent able to do anything because this dude was like Flash running around back and forth. He even caught up to us on the way out to extraction and passed us to get there first after all the objectives were done.

 

 

 

 

It has to do with this major rift in the playerbase that essentially boils down to experienced vs inexperienced. I don't know many people with over 150 hours on their accounts who don't rush because despite all the talk about it the game directly rewards rushing unless you are farming for mats.

Exp / mods / credit rewards are all greatly improved by rushing through maps at blinding speed (in terms of amount / time not amount / run) and the general sameyness of the maps tend to make them not terribly interesting to explore that deeply.... and frankly, most of us find rushing *fun* after we get used to the game. I feel the problem is more that the experienced / more advanced players tend to not make accommodation for the other players who are either not as experienced or enjoy a slower pace.

To me this boils down to a simple fix... let us choose what games we join, let us post a blurb about the group when we host ("rushing" "clearing" etc) so we can go into matches knowing what to expect, and let us see our ping to each group before joining them to avoid the countless "cannot connect" errors.

If you don't like rushing or the high mobility tricks you're likely never going to like them much how if you do like it you're likely to never enjoy them being removed. Seems to me the solution isn't to destroy one playstyle to suit another but to give us more tools to group up with like-minded players.

 

This has nothing to do with more "experienced/advance" vs not. 

This is simply about people wanting to be "efficient"  vs people who just want to play.

Some folks have some sort of schedule they need to meet while other folks simply dont care about stuff like that.

I do agree and have said for a long time now that there should be options when joining a game that lets you group with folks who are playing in the same manner.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[Bakim0n0]

The issue isn't self control but the choices other people make, i was in a game where i person did this the whole stage and rest of the players werent able to do anything because this dude was like Flash running around back and forth. He even caught up to us on the way out to extraction and passed us to get there first after all the objectives were done.

How does that even happen? Even without mobility tricks there's no reason someone should be able to do all the objectives and get all the kills while you plod through a mission.

I find this claim very hard to believe.

[aliasAnonymous]

I see two intended systems of enhanced movement: wall-running, and slide maneuvers

 

Wall running relies on your max stamina pool, and a rush modifier. The speed with which you launch off the wall is greatly boosted by sprint speed, and the length of the wall run is boosted by marathon.

 

Slide maneuvers rely on regeneration of stamina, and the rate of your melee. The speed with which you are flung by (air/ground) slashes is affected by fury, and the slide naturally allows a regeneration of stamina, so the slide relies on quick rest.

 

Both of these systems seem purposeful, and intelligently designed by the creators of this game.

 

The concerns that should be had by the community are:

The momentum generation of an air slash (a momentum generation on a ground slash is fine)

Stamina hitting 0 during a slash animation does not interrupt it.

 

I believe the momentum generation of an air slash should be removed, but not if the removal of the momentum generation would result in the ground slash being affected.

 

The stamina issue for ground slash movement is also, in my opinion, in need of revision. I used to use quick rest to ensure that a slide would almost instantly refill my stamina, but I eventually realized that I could forgo quick rest and move unhindered.

 

However, there is a counter argument that I can make: you are unable to do anything stamina related immediately after you finish chaining your slash attacks. This includes the following:

blocking

double slashes***

sprinting

jumping

 

The most important limitation, in my mind, is the inability to chain *double slashes* together without quick rest. These are extremely powerful, as you quickly deliver massive amounts of damage to your targets. In this sense, the fact that a normal slash is not interrupted by your stamina hitting 0 is fine, as you have limited options because of that fact.

 

Conclusions:

With a few very minor tweaks, the system will have high quality fundamentals. It allows slow sprint frames to build into slash movement, and high sprint frames to build into wall-run movement, and everyone in between to pick their path however they choose.

[magnaar]

I do that all the time. I don't have a macro I'm using 2 side buttons of my mouse. Whats the big deal ? it adds great mobility and fun and helps me catch up with crazy runners.

I dont understand this attitude oh I cant do it so he shouldn't be able do it either oh I don't like it please devs remove etc.. 

[Bakim0n0]

This has nothing to do with more "experienced/advance" vs not. 

This is simply about people wanting to be "efficient"  vs people who just want to play.

Some folks have some sort of schedule they need to meet while other folks simply dont care about stuff like that.

I do agree and have said for a long time now that there should be options when joining a game that lets you group with folks who are playing in the same manner.

Read what I wrote again, carefully. Usually it *is* a matter of experienced or not with a very small minority of players who are experienced and enjoy a slower pace (spoiler, I specifically mention players who enjoy a slower pace).

I just want to play too, I love being a super ninja able to be all over the place making it seem like I'm five different places at once zipping back and forth across lines of fire, dodging bullets and doing a jump-flip slam attack and slicing my foes while they are disabled. To me that is absurdly fun and keeps me playing this game despite having no meaningful advancement currently (I can add credits to my 850K+ credit or farm more mats when I have enough to make every frame and weapon in the game over again).

I have real world matters to contend with as well, places to be, things to do, and I don't use these tricks because I just "want to be efficient" I do them because I have a frikkan blast doing it.

[Mak_Gohae]

How does that even happen? Even without mobility tricks there's no reason someone should be able to do all the objectives and get all the kills while you plod through a mission.

I find this claim very hard to believe.

 

Wha?

I never said he got all the kills i DID say that a person used this weapons slash thing to move tremendously fast.

When i said we werent able to do anything i didnt mean literally anything. We just ran in kill a few things, opened a few barrels and the mission was already done so we headed out and the dude caught up and passed out to the extract as well.

[Bakim0n0]

Wha?

I never said he got all the kills i DID say that a person used this weapons slash thing to move tremendously fast.

When i said we werent able to do anything i didnt mean literally anything. We just ran in kill a few things, opened a few barrels and the mission was already done so we headed out and the dude caught up and passed out to the extract as well.

That makes more sense, the way you stated it originally made it sound like you couldn't keep up with him and every room you hit was empty; but this does sound like something you can easily fix by running in private groups. I would say "most of us" do that but I can't be sure... I do know I very rarely run on open because there is no way to kick people out or assure you will have a decent host and I constantly recommend others do similarly.

[Mak_Gohae]

Read what I wrote again, carefully. Usually it *is* a matter of experienced or not with a very small minority of players who are experienced and enjoy a slower pace (spoiler, I specifically mention players who enjoy a slower pace).

I just want to play too, I love being a super ninja able to be all over the place making it seem like I'm five different places at once zipping back and forth across lines of fire, dodging bullets and doing a jump-flip slam attack and slicing my foes while they are disabled. To me that is absurdly fun and keeps me playing this game despite having no meaningful advancement currently (I can add credits to my 850K+ credit or farm more mats when I have enough to make every frame and weapon in the game over again).

I have real world matters to contend with as well, places to be, things to do, and I don't use these tricks because I just "want to be efficient" I do them because I have a frikkan blast doing it.

 

I read what you posted, you said MOST people with a lot of time who are experienced rush because the game "rewards rushing."

 

And i dont know why this has such a hard time to be understood.

Rushers are people who just run towards objectives and ignore everything else.

Rushers are NOT people who play the game at a fast speed.

[Bakim0n0]

I read what you posted, you said MOST people with a lot of time who are experienced rush because the game "rewards rushing."

 

And i dont know why this has such a hard time to be understood.

Rushers are people who just run towards objectives and ignore everything else.

Rushers are NOT people who play the game at a fast speed.

I'm not sure why you think I didn't understand exactly what I said. I am well aware what rushing is, the game directly rewards it in every way but mats; maybe not so much in exp if you avoid killing anything.

[Mak_Gohae]

That makes more sense, the way you stated it originally made it sound like you couldn't keep up with him and every room you hit was empty; but this does sound like something you can easily fix by running in private groups. I would say "most of us" do that but I can't be sure... I do know I very rarely run on open because there is no way to kick people out or assure you will have a decent host and I constantly recommend others do similarly.

 

Why dont people who use these type of tactics run private games since they dont need anyone else?

Why is the person who plays open games because he doesnt mind others joining in to play together have to be one that have to start private sessions?

[Master_Marmot_Prime]

Just got home, so yeah. This is NOT a new way of way dashing. I have been using this for +/- 2 months. It also requires stamina, whereas the other way of dashing does not require/ requires little stamina.

[Bakim0n0]

Why dont people who use these type of tactics run private games since they dont need anyone else?

Why is the person who plays open games because he doesnt mind others joining in to play together have to be one that have to start private sessions?

To be fair, I am a very strong advocate of rushing in private or alternatively clearing in private. I've stated here, repeatedly, this issue is more of a problem with players respecting other's play styles and sticking together (courtesy) and been a firm proponent of us self regulating instead of begging DE to put in changes that hamper people's chosen play style.

[Bakim0n0]

Just got home, so yeah. This is NOT a new way of way dashing. I have been using this for +/- 2 months. It also requires stamina, whereas the other way of dashing does not require/ requires little stamina.

Not sure what you mean; doing the flinging / chain melee moves for mobility tends to leave you at very low stamina and if you mess up timing you'll try to start the maneuver with no stamina and it wont work.

[Mak_Gohae]

I'm not sure why you think I didn't understand exactly what I said. I am well aware what rushing is, the game directly rewards it in every way but mats; maybe not so much in exp if you avoid killing anything.

 

That's why i dont think you understand what people mean by rushing.

Rushers are not people that clear the stage fast.

And, by the way, the game doesnt reward rushing at all.

Because there absolutely no difference in what people get who rush through a stage and those who dont.

[Ronkyu]

That's why i dont think you understand what people mean by rushing.

Rushers are not people that clear the stage fast.

And, by the way, the game doesnt reward rushing at all.

Because there absolutely no difference in what people get who rush through a stage and those who dont.

Finishing the mission faster yields more credits earned.

Because the time you can finish one normally, you may finish 2 if rushing.

[Bakim0n0]

That's why i dont think you understand what people mean by rushing.

Rushers are not people that clear the stage fast.

And, by the way, the game doesnt reward rushing at all.

Because there absolutely no difference in what people get who rush through a stage and those who dont.

If you think the game does not reward rushing at all you haven't been paying attention.

If you take 10 min to clear a map and you get 4k credits at the end...

I do that same map 3 times in 10 min and get similar exp and similar mods and 12k credits...

[Master_Marmot_Prime]

Not sure what you mean; doing the flinging / chain melee moves for mobility tends to leave you at very low stamina and if you mess up timing you'll try to start the maneuver with no stamina and it wont work.

Typo, meant not a new way of wave dashing.

 

Yes, it leaves you at a very low stamina. Actually you can start it again, immediately after you mess it up, at least for me it does with no stamina mods equipped. I also use this in defense. Sometimes when a teammate is down running takes more time than this to reach him.

Edited May 12, 2013 by BaboYa

[Bakim0n0]

Typo, meant not a new way of wave dashing.

 

Yes, it leaves you at a very low stamina. Actually you can start it again, immediately after you mess it up, at least for me it does with no stamina mods equipped. I also use this in defense. Sometimes when a teammate is down running takes more time than this to reach him.

Yeah, you can start it up right after if you misstep; I was just pointing out that there is timing involved... not like you can just mash keys and do it.

[Bakim0n0]

Mak, if you really don't think rushing gives you any substantial benefits add me in game to look at my profile... see how similar our stats are other than kills and notice you have 300+ runs on me. I didn't start out as a rusher, but at least half of my runs I didn't rush because I was still learning... Now the only time I don't rush is the obvious defense  / mobile defense stuff.

[NinjaMH]

To be honest this helps me with ranking Ankyros because it's the only way of actually doing damage with them unless someone can enlighten me with a better way to kill

[Halbrecht]

this burns lots of stamina if spammed by keyboard(not by macros).
If there is some exploit, or a bug that makes stamina drain slower - they should and will fix it.
Also, the boost of speed you get by performing the maneuver can be lowered a bit. I often slide too far away to hit the enemy reliably with excal and rush mods. Nothing critical on rhino without speedy mods tho.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Halbrecht

[shukudai]

I like how the OP, after his last spurt of sensationalist vitriol on page 4, has entirely failed to reply to either myself nor bakimono's replies...  While at the same time berating others for not reading OP.

 

LuxAngel7, I have read all of your posts.  I have not misunderstood what you are saying.  

 

And mate, I've addressed the issue of macros.  They are irrelevant.  Plenty of others, including a community mod, have said so in this thread alone, and countless times elsewhere.  Please explain how you are finding it necessary to insist that this is a consideration whatsoever?

 

Self-proclaimed masters, yep ad hominem attack.  Didn't see that coming.

 

Emergent gameplay is often unintended.  "You have no imagination" and "you hate puppies", you're now putting words in our mouths.  I am glad you understand that such justification is based on intellect, however scathingly sarcastic you were in your delivery.  But given that a counter-point has been presented, do try to respond with more than a subjective opinion.  Being not in line with how the game should be played not only avoids the topic of emergent gameplay, but also sounds fairly dictatorial, does it not?  

 

Knifeskating doesn't cancel the need for stamina nor sprinting.  If you like reloading on the move at all, if you like taking out a room full of enemies quickly, your gun-and-run is still the way to go.  Ironically, if you wanted an example of an intended obsoletion of mods, just look at the mod point + polarity system.  Furthermore, at no point are proponents of mobility techs suggesting that they don't require balancing whatsoever.  We're simply suggesting there are better options than outright removal.

 

I'd continue, but I'm interested to see if you'll reply to these few points first.

[Maddoc]

Trying to make reaching claims that the only people that want or expect this unintended interaction to be fixed are unskilled or jealous does nothing but totally undermine any point you may be trying to make.

Anyway I don't greatly care either way because I mostly just play solo or with friends, but if you watch the latest livestream and listen to their reasons for removing wavedashing it is incredibly obvious that this will also be fixed for the various reasons they mentioned regarding wavedashing.

I believe the most important of these reasons is that it looks totally absurd in action.

[Kotoso]

This is probably not the place to post this but w/e. As someone who uses all of these techniques, I've noticed that stamina is never a limiting factor. I think a good goal point for a stamina system would be dark souls (but with mods instead of stat points and level ups):

 

Dark souls:

-40 endurance breakpoint was always aimed for at the start of every build. Only builds that were low leveled or stretched thin would use lower, and usually it was 30. Over 40 points in endurance added no stamina.

-Stamina drained on every action other than walking/jogging/not sprinting

-Actions costed stamina instead of just doing the action and then removing the stamina. Actions could not start if the player did not have enough stamina

 

Warframe:

-Nobody uses stamina mods

-Actions start, and then the stamina drains, even if you don't have enough stamina

-Stamina regenerates during slides, slide attacks, in the air... basically as long as you aren't sprinting, stamina is regenerating

-Many actions don't cost drain stamina at all

 

Making the stamina system useful is a better way to go about changing things, instead of hard coding in weird things like a cooldown on a momentum boost. This screwed up some wallrun routes that didn't involve animation cancels at all... or even quick fingers.

 

Also players that ignore their teammates and leave them in rooms of enemies to rush ahead no matter how slow you make the fastest method of movement. Players that look in every locker, going way out of the way from objectives to find mods are also going to do this, while their other teammates go ahead. Having 2/4, 2/3, 1/2 of players at the exit was a good change, no further action is needed.

 

Personally, even if I am the fastest ninja on the ship, I don't leave tenno behind. I play more like a scout, clearing the sides of the rooms we enter, moving to the back, and converging on the center. I don't want the only method of playing left to be holding w + left click, just because people don't want others to have different playstyles.

[Mak_Gohae]

Finishing the mission faster yields more credits earned.

Because the time you can finish one normally, you may finish 2 if rushing.

 

 

If you think the game does not reward rushing at all you haven't been paying attention.

If you take 10 min to clear a map and you get 4k credits at the end...

I do that same map 3 times in 10 min and get similar exp and similar mods and 12k credits...

 

And that only matters to you.

People who dont care about speed or wanting credits NAOH are not loosing anything at all.

This "reward" is an illusion you folks fabricated and only affects you.

 

Everyone can get all the same items no matter how fast or slow you play the game.