Concerns Of A Zephyr User, The Update 16.7 And 16.8 Revival: Now With Even More Turbulence Ranting!

[Coded]

As for Tornado, I have a few suggestion after playing with Funnel Clouds for several missions:

-The screen shake on Tornado is annoying. And with Funnel Clouds, the screen shake is more annoying. Please tone it down or remove screen shake entirely. I wouldn't mind if screen shake only applies upon spawning tornadoes.

 

-Please allow us to cancel Tornado earlier in case tornadoes spawn at weird location. Here's my suggestion: When Zephyr cast Tornado again, all tornadoes will travel back to Zephyr and then be removed.

 

 

OMGG YESSS!!

 

If when we recast tornado they travel back to us, we at least have some mechanical control over which enemies we can hit by positioning ourselves accordingly.

 

This is actually a really good rework option.

[borgender]

Came to this forum to suggest hover mode, was not surprised it had been suggested multiple times. If one thing gets done with Zepher it would have to be hover mode for me.

[Dark_Entity]

I'm truly ok with all of her moves except turbulence, I beleive that needs a buff against grinner, I would rather have it so that it makes you invincible to all bullets but your weapon accuracy would be horrible itself, that would fit my play style well

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

have you tried shooting rebecca a pm? it is her job after all.

 

Someone be our hero please. I'm too scared to do that.

 

I did it. I'm the hero Zephyr deserves. If I was Batman, Turbulence would be my murdered parents.

[Mehbah]

I came here to suggest fixes for Zephyr. Found this thread which has some very similar suggestions. Here are mine, though:

 

Tail Wind is terrible. It's supposed to give her mobility, but it's so extremely clumsy that more often than not you'll be slowed down when you use it.

1. If you use it along the ground, you lose almost all momentum when the effect stops.

2. It clashes with basically everything about the level design. You will get caught on ledges. You will get catch ledges mid-flight and cancel the flight until a ledge climb when you don't want to. You will get caught on trees and so many other things. Many doors have a tiny, stupid ledge above them that you can stand on, and Tail Wind very often results in you landing on that ledge, being forced to wait for the momentum to die down, walk backwards so you fall off the ledge and then having to start going through it. It is very slow and clumsy, doing nothing but reducing her mobility which is supposed to be her "thing". Trying to use Tail Wind through many doors, most noticeably the Void ones that are basically spinning tubes, results in you getting caught on the edges of the door and pulled to the side. Even when that doesn't happen, doors open too slow for you to pass through them, leading to you flying in place against the door, wasting the entire Tail Wind. You will overshoot your target and fall into pits (and since momentum is carried over after falling into a pit and being teleported up, you will likely fall down again).

3. The invisible ceilings are way too low. It's outright impossible to use the grounded version of Tail Wind without cancelling it with Dive Bomb in many places, which destroys the entire mobility aspect of the ability.

4. Since you will fall into pits or fly up into the invisible ceiling all the time, you will have your expensive Turbulence dispelled.

5. Turbulence, the one skill of Zephyr's that is actually really useful, benefits from duration. Duration makes you fly farther. Improving your one good ability makes Tail Wind even more unwieldy.

6. Your starting momentum is kept when you activate it. If you are, for example, aiming at a door when you activate it, you will miss it if you had any sort of momentum. And with her "thing" being mobility, you will pretty much always be moving.

7. The damage is terrible, so it has no value as a damaging ability. Nor do I particularly want it to, but it means that "it does good damage so it shouldn't be too useful for mobility" is an argument that doesn't hold water.

8. Zephyr's gravity is bugged and has been ever since her release. If you use Tail Wind twice without touching the ground, she loses her special low gravity attribute.

9. Since you can now use air melee to quickly move around or gain a lot of height, Tail Wind is close to totally obsolete. Melee attacks are also less clumsy.

 

In the 50th devstream, the devs repeatedly mocked Excalibur's Super Jump and admitted how stupid it was in a game "where you can run on the walls". A super jump is essentially what grounded Tail Wind is, only Tail Wind is clumsier and more likely to get you sent into invisible ceilings. Airborne Tail Wind isn't much better. If there's an ability that needs way more attention than Super Jump, it's Tail Wind. Unfortunately the devs don't care about Zephyr.

 

How to improve it? Assuming it isn't reworked completely, make it remove any present momentum when cast in the air to make it easier to aim accurately. Make it possible to deactivate it at any point, to give her mobility rather than forcing her to fly the entire duration. Fix the low gravity loss bug.

 

These suggestions basically turn it into a slightly better air melee, which still is pretty damn bad. But at least it would be better.

 

Dive Bomb is an ability that I don't care much about. It's certainly in need of improvement, though. For 25 energy, Zephyr can slam into the floor and stun nearby enemies briefly and do damage so bad that it might as well not be there. For 25 energy, Mag can stun entire rooms, pull them into a position she wants, and grab every pickup on the map (slight exaggeration). The suggestion to combine it with Tail Wind and to give her some sort of hover ability for her second ability sounds good.

 

Turbulence. With the Jet Stream augment, it became a lot better. It's still broken against Grineer's hitscan weapons, though. My suggestion on how to solve that: simply make it remove hitscan bullets that hit it. Yeah, people say that it's OP against Corpus, but how many Zephyrs do you see exactly? Certainly not a ton of them. If it was that OP, people would flock to it. Loki can go invisible which, in essence, makes him immune to any projectile that isn't aimed at a Tenno standing behind him (in the sense that the enemy won't even try to shoot him). Loki is already a very good frame, too. Valkyr can go invincible for extended periods of time. Mesa can very easily get 95% damage resistance as well as reflect the damage. Mesa is another extremely powerful frame. Making Zephyr immune to bullets is no more OP than to make Loki never get targeted by them. Zephyr would have similar weaknesses as Loki (AoE etc.), and arguably even more weaknesses since enemies would actively target her with their abilities.

 

Loki can get essentially bullet immunity, invisibility and do a ton more melee damage. He can also distract enemies (Decoy + Switch Teleport arguably gives him even more mobility than Zephyr) and disarm entire rooms. Valkyr can get total invincibility, a ton of melee damage and immunity to knockdowns/staggers. Mesa can get very high damage resistance and damage reflection, in addition to her already extremely powerful Peacemaker. Giving Zephyr bullet immunity with no other side effects aside from an augment mod that takes up a mod slot would not be OP. Not when her only strengths are (supposed) mobility and imperfect CC tornadoes.

 

I do NOT agree with the suggestion to make Turbulence useful only at long distances. Most rooms in the game wouldn't even allow it, and it would completely flip her play style. It would be much more of a nerf than a buff and would remove her only truly strong quality.

 

Provided Turbulence gets the buff I suggested, I wouldn't mind if Tornado stays more or less the same. Just improve the targeting and perhaps make it so that holding 4 makes the tornadoes spawn as they do now, while tapping it during the activation period marks a spot at your crosshair for a tornado to spawn in when it finishes casting. Tornado gives some CC while providing meh damage. When two of her skills are wasted on completely useless stuff, she needs at least some CC.

 

In addition, make it so that her aerial melee slam overrides her low gravity. So many times have I tried to knockdown a heavy gunner or bum bard with the radial slam, only to have her slow falling speed allow the enemy to execute their radial slam and stun me. Why does their radial slam even hit us in the air to begin with?

 

Edit: As another suggestion, make power duration affect the time other players are affected by the Jet Stream boost.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Mehbah

[OverlordMcGeek]

I did it. I'm the hero Zephyr deserves. If I was Batman, Turbulence would be my murdered parents.

2deep4me

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Tail Wind is terrible. It's supposed to give her mobility, but it's so extremely clumsy that more often than not you'll be slowed down when you use it.

1. If you use it along the ground, you lose almost all momentum when the effect stops.

2. It clashes with basically everything about the level design. You will get caught on ledges. You will get catch ledges mid-flight and cancel the flight until a ledge climb when you don't want to. You will get caught on trees and so many other things. Many doors have a tiny, stupid ledge above them that you can stand on, and Tail Wind very often results in you landing on that ledge, being forced to wait for the momentum to die down, walk backwards so you fall off the ledge and then having to start going through it. It is very slow and clumsy, doing nothing but reducing her mobility which is supposed to be her "thing". Trying to use Tail Wind through many doors, most noticeably the Void ones that are basically spinning tubes, results in you getting caught on the edges of the door and pulled to the side. Even when that doesn't happen, doors open too slow for you to pass through them, leading to you flying in place against the door, wasting the entire Tail Wind. You will overshoot your target and fall into pits (and since momentum is carried over after falling into a pit and being teleported up, you will likely fall down again).

3. The invisible ceilings are way too low. It's outright impossible to use the grounded version of Tail Wind without cancelling it with Dive Bomb in many places, which destroys the entire mobility aspect of the ability.

4. Since you will fall into pits or fly up into the invisible ceiling all the time, you will have your expensive Turbulence dispelled.

5. Turbulence, the one skill of Zephyr's that is actually really useful, benefits from duration. Duration makes you fly farther. Improving your one good ability makes Tail Wind even more unwieldy.

6. Your starting momentum is kept when you activate it. If you are, for example, aiming at a door when you activate it, you will miss it if you had any sort of momentum. And with her "thing" being mobility, you will pretty much always be moving.

7. The damage is terrible, so it has no value as a damaging ability. Nor do I particularly want it to, but it means that "it does good damage so it shouldn't be too useful for mobility" is an argument that doesn't hold water.

8. Zephyr's gravity is bugged and has been ever since her release. If you use Tail Wind twice without touching the ground, she loses her special low gravity attribute.

9. Since you can now use air melee to quickly move around or gain a lot of height, Tail Wind is close to totally obsolete. Melee attacks are also less clumsy.

 

In the 50th devstream, the devs repeatedly mocked Excalibur's Super Jump and admitted how stupid it was in a game "where you can run on the walls". A super jump is essentially what grounded Tail Wind is, only Tail Wind is clumsier and more likely to get you sent into invisible ceilings. Airborne Tail Wind isn't much better. If there's an ability that needs way more attention than Super Jump, it's Tail Wind. Unfortunately the devs don't care about Zephyr.

 

I agree with you on every other point you make, but while Tail Wind is far from a perfect ability, it's still better than melee air attacks, and certainly better than Super Jump. Melee air attacks don't sent you nearly as far as Tail Wind, and preserve your momentum. Tail wind nullifies all current momentum upon use, allowing for greater maneuverability than melee air attacks. Melee air attacks can't keep you in the air for long periods of time. Tail wind is better than Super Jump for its horizontal mobility, since you can jump to shoot yourself in any direction.

 

That being said, here's what needs to happen to Tail Wind as an ability:

-Invisible midair cliffs tripled in height

-Impossible to grab onto objects while Tail Wind is active

-colliding with an object causes you to slide off or around it without losing speed

-Tail Wind forcibly opens doors

 

If these four things happen, Tail Wind will be perfect, at least in my eyes.

 

Added to the OP.

Edited April 22, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[Mehbah]

I agree with you on every other point you make, but while Tail Wind is far from a perfect ability, it's still better than melee air attacks, and certainly better than Super Jump. Melee air attacks don't sent you nearly as far as Tail Wind, and preserve your momentum. Tail wind nullifies all current momentum upon use, allowing for greater maneuverability than melee air attacks. Melee air attacks can't keep you in the air for long periods of time. Tail wind is better than Super Jump for its horizontal mobility, since you can jump to shoot yourself in any direction.

 

Melee air attacks don't send you as far as Tail Wind, but in many cases that is an advantage for the melee attacks. Tail Wind almost always overshoots whatever you want to reach, and is much more likely to send you into the "void". Tail Wind is bugged and makes you lose the low gravity effect if used twice, making you fall like a rock. It isn't very good at keeping you airborne either, and there is very little reason to stay airborne to begin with. You're unable to shoot for the duration of the skill, and few maps even allow Zephyr to use a 158+% duration Tail Wind upwards without hitting the "void". Tail Wind's complete lack of control after activation often makes a horizontal air melee better for mobility, particularly when coupled with the Jet Stream speed boost (I use Rush and Jet Stream for very high mobility) and Zephyr's good air control.

 

Even if Tail Wind wasn't so bad, the fact that uses energy to do slightly better than what every frame can do with pretty much any melee weapon makes it very obsolete. You know those rooms in the Void where you're supposed to wall run up to reach a higher area with some crates? I used to use Tail Wind to get up there. Now I just jump and air melee with Orthos Prime. Faster, cheaper, and even more reliable.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Even if Tail Wind wasn't so bad, the fact that uses energy to do slightly better than what every frame can do with pretty much any melee weapon makes it very obsolete. You know those rooms in the Void where you're supposed to wall run up to reach a higher area with some crates? I used to use Tail Wind to get up there. Now I just jump and air melee with Orthos Prime. Faster, cheaper, and even more reliable.

Melee air attacks definitely need to be looked at, since they de-value mobility skills and have incredible difficulty hitting airborne targets. If the distance they sent you was decreased by 50%, and their hitbox size was massively increased(I'm thinking 200-300%) then they would actually be more effective at hitting airborne targets then they are at being a short distance Tail Wind.

To fix the issue of overshooting, perhaps you could tap the ability key to go a short distance, and hold it down for longer to go further? Duration mods would increase the maximum distance. Paired with my existing Tail Wind changes, this should be enough to fix the problem.

Edited April 22, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

It has now been 3 days since I PMed DERebecca, and the status is still "unread". I'm willing to accept that this may take significantly longer than expected, although I realize now that expecting DERebecca to answer my PM as soon as a normal player would was probably foolish at best. I'm willing to tolerate waiting about two weeks if necessary, since this seems to be the average amount of time usually required to get a response to a support ticket, although if time it takes exceeds that, there's not really much I can do about it.

I don't like making two posts in a row, but I was informed by (redacted) that bumping this thread would be the least rude way to keep the fight for Turbulence fixes going, especially while I'm waiting for a response from DERebecca.

[Impact6]

It has now been 3 days since I PMed DERebecca, and the status is still "unread". I'm willing to accept that this may take significantly longer than expected, although I realize now that expecting DERebecca to answer my PM as soon as a normal player would was probably foolish at best. I'm willing to tolerate waiting about two weeks if necessary, since this seems to be the average amount of time usually required to get a response to a support ticket, although if time it takes exceeds that, there's not really much I can do about it.

I don't like making two posts in a row, but I was informed by (redacted) that bumping this thread would be the least rude way to keep the fight for Turbulence fixes going, especially while I'm waiting for a response from DERebecca.

 

I totally support you man, I'll fight beside you and bump this thread as well. May the Turbulence be with us.

[Mehbah]

Melee air attacks definitely need to be looked at, since they de-value mobility skills and have incredible difficulty hitting airborne targets. If the distance they sent you was decreased by 50%, and their hitbox size was massively increased(I'm thinking 200-300%) then they would actually be more effective at hitting airborne targets then they are at being a short distance Tail Wind.

 

Rather than nerfing melee air attacks (as a mobility tool), I would say that mobility skills should be improved.

 

I definitely agree that melee air attacks should be easier to hit with though. In most cases it's ridiculously difficult.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Rather than nerfing melee air attacks (as a mobility tool), I would say that mobility skills should be improved.

 

I definitely agree that melee air attacks should be easier to hit with though. In most cases it's ridiculously difficult.

 

Melee air attacks, and coptering to a lesser extent, would still be a massive problem even if they didn't de-value mobility skills, especially in PVP due to the tiny maps. Because of melee air attacks, you can literally reach your enemy's spawnpoint in a few seconds. You could say that this is the fault of the maps, but gigantic maps with ridiculous mobility would increase the time between engagements, slowing down the pace of combat. I think that the maps should be moderately increased in size, coupled with my melee air attack changes.

 

Melee air attacks were intended as a way to hit airborne targets with melee, not as a mobility tool. One of the reasons it's so hard to hit airborne targets is because they send you so far, increasing the time it takes to perform another one after missing. I feel that Tail Wind is still a better mobility tool than melee air attacks because of the superior horizontal mobility and maneuverability, but clearly some people don't agree with me, and Super Jump is pretty much completely inferior to them in every way (aside from the tenth of a second of invisibility). Fortunately this problem will be solved by the upcoming Excalibur rework. I'd like to see what happens to mobility tools in general once Parkour 2.0 arrives.

[OverlordMcGeek]

well, there is 5 pages of posts so if i reply to each one it wouldn't be "bumping" per say...

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

5 days and it's still unread.

 

well, there is 5 pages of posts so if i reply to each one it wouldn't be "bumping" per say...

 

Feel free to go right ahead, I'll be right here being diligently being ignored as usual.

 

What Zephyr changes would you all like to see? I'd be interested to know what the community thinks of Zephyr.

[Velsva]

To make mobility even easier for Zephyr, perhaps an update could make it possible to move diagonally with tailwind starting from a ground position. Just simply combat roll in your desired direction and while in the middle of the roll hit Tail Wind. This could launch Zephyr in a ~30 degree angle.

[087SE-Miykhail]

 I Agree whit your changes, but turbulence actually works if you use overextended and stretch. They never hit me once on any missions on ceres or T4 ( only annoy bombards ).

But making the inner bubble bigger like the outter bubble should fix it, so if we have a really big bubble, the bullets should be deflected correctly.

As for tornados, it really does mediocre damage... Or everyone ignores how devastating a real tornado can be? It rekts everything in its way, destroying everything. 

I Will add a new upgrade here: Theres way too much permanent gray parts on zephyr, dam. Hes almost half gray, and when coloring him, for some reason he have white boder lines on his body, its a pain to color him :(

He needs higher quality model textures. 

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

 I Agree whit your changes, but turbulence actually works if you use overextended and stretch. They never hit me once on any missions on ceres or T4 ( only annoy bombards ).

 

This contradicts my testing. I performed the testing I talked about in the OP with varying outer radii, and even with the maximum possible range, 15m was still the distance at which Turbulence became irrelevant.

 

Even if what you say is true, you shouldn't need to gouge your power strength for something that the ability should already do in the first place.

 

As for tornados, it really does mediocre damage... Or everyone ignores how devastating a real tornado can be? It rekts everything in its way, destroying everything. 

 

I calculated the total damage output of Tornado with my build, and it came out to over 30k. The only problem is that most enemies won't take the full damage, since they frequently get spit out before the duration ends, or the Tornadoes spawn in weird places, or they end up drifting into walls.

 

I Will add a new upgrade here: Theres way too much permanent gray parts on zephyr, dam. Hes almost half gray, and when coloring him, for some reason he have white boder lines on his body, its a pain to color him :(

He needs higher quality model textures. 

 

This is something I will agree with. I still want a proto-skin that changes Zephyr's appearance to that of the original fan concept. I should really start a petition.

 

Also, the game refers to Zephyr as being female, although many people find this debatable due to the highly androgynous design. I can understand why you would think Zephyr is male. Evidence suggests that the gender of the warframe actually has no relation to the gender of the Tenno inside, so the gender of your frame isn't connected to the gender of your actual character in any way.

[BerelHawdos]

Divebomb isn't that bad you can do a jump into divebomb for a quick knockdown otherwise I agree with the suggestions.

[087SE-Miykhail]

This contradicts my testing. I performed the testing I talked about in the OP with varying outer radii, and even with the maximum possible range, 15m was still the distance at which Turbulence became irrelevant.

 

Even if what you say is true, you shouldn't need to gouge your power strength for something that the ability should already do in the first place.

 

 

I calculated the total damage output of Tornado with my build, and it came out to over 30k. The only problem is that most enemies won't take the full damage, since they frequently get spit out before the duration ends, or the Tornadoes spawn in weird places, or they end up drifting into walls.

 

 

This is something I will agree with. I still want a proto-skin that changes Zephyr's appearance to that of the original fan concept. I should really start a petition.

 

Also, the game refers to Zephyr as being female, although many people find this debatable due to the highly androgynous design. I can understand why you would think Zephyr is male. Evidence suggests that the gender of the warframe actually has no relation to the gender of the Tenno inside, so the gender of your frame isn't connected to the gender of your actual character in any way.

I tend to confuse myself on zephyr gender a lot. Dam.

But yeah, tornadoes do on paper really good damage, i said they do mediocre damage because they cant really do effectively all the damage they was suposed to do. A rare exception is stalker, he cant dispel tornadoes, and takes lots of damage.

For the turbulence, well, i agree, the nees to maximize the range to make it work poorly in some cases is really bad.

Turbulence actually should work having more strenght, making winds stronger and reflecting even more the bullets.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I tend to confuse myself on zephyr gender a lot. Dam.

But yeah, tornadoes do on paper really good damage, i said they do mediocre damage because they cant really do effectively all the damage they was suposed to do. A rare exception is stalker, he cant dispel tornadoes, and takes lots of damage.

For the turbulence, well, i agree, the nees to maximize the range to make it work poorly in some cases is really bad.

Turbulence actually should work having more strenght, making winds stronger and reflecting even more the bullets.

 

My suggested changes should fix every one of these problems. Now if only DE would open their eyes and actually glance at the feedback forums every once in a while.

 

YOUR COMMUNITY WANTS THIS, DE. 2436 VIEWS, 91 REPLIES, AND 75 UPVOTES. GADDAM.

 

At least fix this Turbulence bug that I've been screaming at you to fix for TWO SOLID MONTHS!!!

 

6 days and Rebecca hasn't seen my PM. On day 14, I'm copying all the text, deleting it, and sending another one with a different title. I will repeat this process every 14 days until she knows about this bug.

Edited April 27, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[weezedog]

I would love for 1 tornado to appear where your cursor is aimed at. Turbulence needs to be fixed. Dive bomb needs to be worked into tail wind (if you are in the air and aim downward you dive bomb) and be replaced with a 50 energy ability, something like a shock wave type ability like a 20m knockdown/knockback that does damage.

[Fallosssss]

I also noticed that turbulence bug
Im tired from this kind of "bugs"(
Same crap was happened with frost snow globe

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I also noticed that turbulence bug

Im tired from this kind of "bugs"(

Same crap was happened with frost snow globe

And Antimatter Drop. I'm not the most Frost-aware person; are you referring to how Bombard rocket explosions damage targets inside the globe? That's still happening.

I would love for 1 tornado to appear where your cursor is aimed at. Turbulence needs to be fixed. Dive bomb needs to be worked into tail wind (if you are in the air and aim downward you dive bomb) and be replaced with a 50 energy ability, something like a shock wave type ability like a 20m knockdown/knockback that does damage.

I feel like a hover mode would fit Zephyr's kit better as a replacement for Dive Bomb; it should definitely be useful for mobility. A hover mode is certainly the most popular suggestion I've seen. I feel like this thread is more about fixing Zephyr than changing her at this point.

Edited April 27, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[Grander.Alderman]

I don't even remember the last time I used Dive Bomb...

 

I've actually got so accustomed to not using Zephyr's second ability that I often forget that they exist on other frames too.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Grander.Alderman