Balance Is Bad

[Neuhnee]

The devs have fallen into a classic trap, mistaking 'balance' for choice. On paper it looks great, 'if all the weapons average out to the same DPS, then players can choose the weapons that fit the situation/playstyle'. The obvious problem being 'if it doesn't matter which weapon I use why should I use anything *other* than the first gun I tripped over?' It also begs the question 'Why would I bother buying platinum to get the Gorgon if it's not any better than the Mk1 I got for free?'

 

What really needs to be done is to *accentuate* weapons differences. If a gun is fast make it really fast, if it hits hard make it hit really hard. This is how you encourage/support different playstyles.

 

Right, so what follows is paper napkin math used to make a point. Please do not spam this thread with mile long equations proving that with fifteen crit mods, five elemental mods, on a full moon with Sagittarius in rising the blue Lato does half a percent more damage than the red one.

 

Under the current model our weapons look pretty much like this:

 

Weapon A: 1DMG X 1ROF = 1DPS This is our 'all around' weapon

 

Weapon B: 2DMG X .5ROF = 1DPS This is our 'Sniper Rifle'

 

Weapon C: .5DMG X 2ROF = 1DPS This is our 'Heavy Machine Gun'

 

This one shoots a little faster, that one a little slower, but they pretty much do the same thing in the end, so you really just bring whatever you've got the most mods on.

 

Weapon A: 1DMG X 1ROF = 1DPS This is actually a very important set of stats to have available in this type of game, it should be the starter weapon, and most players will keep it around for those 'better be prepared for anything' situations.

 

Weapon B: 3DMG X .25ROF = .75DPS This is going to yield an over all lower DPS, but will appeal to "snipers" who prefer to take the time to line up a head shot and take down badies one at a time.

 

Weapon C: .75DMG X 3ROF = .75DPS This is again going to yield an over all loss in DPS, but will appeal to the 'run and gunners' where more bullets is more important than more damage.

 

You can apply these weights to the base weapons themselves within the current leveling system so that all the weapons remain viable for the entire game, but at the same time we're given the option of more specialization.

[Syllabea]

Which weapons have you actually used?

You don't give us any cold hard numbers to prove your theory, yet you don't want us to give you equations to disprove it? What sort of argument is that? A Grakata won't have the same DPS as a Latron, a Gorgon won't have the same DPS as a MK-1 Braton.

 

Give us examples of Guns A/B/C and give us equations to support yourself. With your current post, i'm dismissing it as 'I don't have a gun that does everything in every category better than anything else, even specialized weapons, therefore all guns suck.'

 

EDIT: DPS isn't everything. Your 'Weapon B' example has potential to do untold amounts of damage, but the time between shots lowers the average damage. 'Weapon C' does large bursts of damage in a small timeframe, and more shots on target mean more crit chances, which mean more overall damage. 'Weapon A' is a jack of all trades weapon, and does everything well enough, but excels in nothing.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Syllabea

[MetalGerbil]

what game are you playing? sounds interesting. 

 

whatever it is its not warframe. there is very clear distinction between weps in a variety of situations. everything from middle of the road guns good at most things but dont excel at anything to guns and swords that are clearly for one faction or another. at various ranges with various damages and tons of options for what you like.

 

with the ability to pick combos where you pick a primary that support a secondary, or the other way around. to whatever suits your style.

 

but no seriously. that other game your talking about sounds neat.

Edited May 16, 2013 by MetalGerbil

[Pathyriel]

I tend to collet all the weapons, but I keep thinking it would be nice if they felt different or had different purposes

[SolluxCaptorTA]

Note: 3X.75 is 2.25. That makes Weapon C have over twice the DPS of A.

[Feldgrep]

Note: 3X.75 is 2.25. That makes Weapon C have over twice the DPS of A.

I noticed that. 3X.75=.75?

[Namacyst]

There is always the possibility to use a Gun because you like it.

 

Edited May 16, 2013 by Namacyst

[MetalGerbil]

There is always the possibility to use a Gun because you like it.

 

its terrible how people miss that so hard.

 

A DPS is better than B DPS. clearly i must use A.

 

lets ignore everything else about the weapons and go on that lone.

 

 

 

oh wait, everything and anything is viable in this game thanks to modding and because its balls easy. ill just pick whatever i want.

[neKroMancer]

What is the pint of this post?

You create multiple equations to support yourself while dismissing in-game calculation that may prove you wrong. This is as invalid as an argument can be.

[Inez]

There's not even a real argument here, valid or invalid.  

 

The goal of a game is to have fun.  If something is more fun, add it.  If its not fun, delete it. 

 

Its really that simple.  

 

I'm impressed that the OP has learned some basic math, but it has nothing to do with whether the game is fun or not.

 

You know what would make the game more fun?  Not A * B = X, but a bazooka.  Preferably one that would let me blow out all those annoying windows that even my Gorgon can't blow out.  I don't wanna hear the little glass crackling sound, I wanna blow the windows the kingdom come.  And I wanna blow Grineer into tiny pieces.  Blowing ^% up is always fun.

 

[AegisGrey]

Wait.

 

You object to weapons which do about the same DPS, and that only differ in things like fire rate and clip size.

 

And then propose a system where we have weapons which do about the same DPS, and that only differ in things like fire rate and clip size?

 

Color me confused.

[Neuhnee]

I intentionally left out specific examples because I didn't want this to turn into a 'my gun is better than your gun' fight. And yes, thank you, there's a typo in the math. My point, however, remains. Half the posts on this forum are about how all the weapons feel the same. I'm just trying to use *very* simplified math to show how with some very slight changes we can end up with much more satisfying options without breaking the existing system. There are a ton of factors not represented in my examples, critical damage bonus, critical chance, accuracy.

 

All I'm trying to say here is that with a little more of the 'fast but weak/strong but slow' model in the base weapons themselves, combined with the leveling and mods we already have we'd see more diversity and the game would make more money for itself which would keep it around longer for those of us who like it.

[Judopunch]

If only there was SOMETHING to show the op how unfounded his entire post was. If only someone did the math and crunched the numbers. If only the guns were COMPLETELY different in flow, damage and situational usage. 

 

I guess we only have this:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Al651yf-IXPUdDBZSXpQeWZCdUV5ZWpOQ1RXYlBpSGc#gid=5

[Loswaith]

Even if all weapons are even, at the end result, people like different things.

 

We like different colours, but one colour isnt any better than another one on the whole.

 

We like different foods, but all food gives us energy to live.

 

We like different cars but all cars (that function correctly) typically do the speed limit and get us from A to B.

 

At the end of the day it doesnt matter if things are visually/functionally different, because it caters to different peoples tastes.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Loswaith

[MoonicusMaximus]

It's also a matter of playstyle preference. If shotguns were vastly underpowered, and I preferred using shotguns in my 3rd person shooting games, I would be knowingly underpowering myself. Likewise, if the 3-shot burst-fire Burston was much weaker in all aspects to the Gorgon, and I preferred precision-based weapons like the Burston, my choice would not be benefiting to myself and me team, because Gorgons are just plain better.

 

Striking a balance between all of the weapons to facilitate all of their individual playstyles is an admirable goal, because it means that everyone's favorite gun and associated playstyle is totally and completely viable.

[Ryanshow]

Don't we already have this? Maybe not among the rifle category where each are almost interchangeable, Braton, Gorgon, Grakata.

 

But between these and the latron, hek and strun we do have a variety of weapon styles.

 

Look beyond the rifle category and the accentuation of differences is already there.

[Neuhnee]

Moonicus, this is pretty much exactly what I'm trying to say here. It doesn't feel like there are enough differences in the weapons to give us a choice, or at least a reason to make one. When soloing I'd like to make loadout decisions based on a combination of environment, playstyle, and likely OpFor.

 

Right now the environments don't really justify such decisions, but what I mean by that is 'this mission is on a ship, so there will likely be a lot of narrow corridors and small rooms so a shotgun will be more effective than a rifle' vs 'this mission is on a planet so there will probably be more open spaces and I should bring a rifle rather than a shotgun.' It would be great to see that have more effect in the future but that's a different department.

 

As for playstyle if I like to find good cover in a room and clear it out, then a weapon with a high max ammo and accuracy is what I want, while magazine size and ROF are going to be less important to me. If I like to rush into a group of badies and wipe them out toe to toe, then ROF and a high capacity magazine are going to be crucial, and accuracy and max ammo aren't going to matter. With the exception of the Burston you can play either of these styles with any weapon in the game, yes including pistols and shotguns though I'll admit the pistols do show more of the idea I'm trying to express, and that you do have to move a little more if you're using a shotgun. And the Burston is only excluded from the first model because the muzzle climb pulls you off target at range.

 

When it comes to OpFor I want to think 'this is a Grineer mission, they tend to attack in small groups of mostly trash with a few special units, and have a tendency to seek cover, so I'll need a weapon that's accurate at range and does high damage to take out those priority targets and pick off the trash from behind cover of my own. Or, this mission is Corpus, they tend to attack in waves and don't seem to use cover much so I'll need a weapon with high ROF to suppress the groups that rush me, and a large magazine so I don't get bum rushed while reloading. Again, with the same provisos as before, you can accomplish both of these goals with any weapon in the game.

 

I love my Braton, I can snipe with it, I can suppress with it, and I can damage dump with it, it's great!

 

I love my Sniperton, I can snipe with it, I can suppress with it, I can damage dump with it, it's great!

 

I love my Gorgon, I can snipe with it, I can suppress with it, I can damage dump with it, it's great!

 

Ok, so you can't snipe with the shotguns or burst weapons, so we have have five weapons in the game that have one less capability than everything else. I'm not saying we shouldn't be able to use whatever weapon we want in whatever situation we find ourselves in, I think we should. What I'd like to see is more of a clear advantage in a given situation between the weapons off the shelf, and the mod system left to us players to decide to make the sniper rifle more viable as an assault rife via increased ROF and magazine capacity, or to pile on the damage and accuracy mods and make it even more specialized.

[Emotitron]

You can take down every boss in this game with every gun and every warframe. I don't see the point of balance discussions in the games current unfinished state. Any balancing they do will all be undone and started over as future scaling of enemies/mods/levels shakes out.

[Dasmir]

There is always the possibility to use a Gun because you like it.

 

Thats is really hard to see in a online game, pretty much all the gamers and elitist like to use the most broken/op thing even if they doesnt like how it works.

 

 

You can take down every boss in this game with every gun and every warframe. I don't see the point of balance discussions in the games current unfinished state. Any balancing they do will all be undone and started over as future scaling of enemies/mods/levels shakes out.

 

"Lol is a beta" thats the point, the devs need fedbacks abou the current state of the game. Pretty much saying the melee weapons are balanced is a cruel joke.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Dasmir

[Argoms]

You can "snipe" with braton and grakata because we don't have long-ranged enemies yet. You're still "sniping" in what this game considers medium range.

 

On top of that, your examples on what not to do is exactly what the game doesn't do, and it does what you say is a good idea. Don't try and "avoid offending" people by not using in-game examples, what you're doing is avoiding showing that you're wrong...

[Neuhnee]

I'm not trying to avoid offending anyone, I'm trying to avoid

 

'Braton. nuff said'

'nuh uh. Braton sux. all u need is Grakata'

'STFU n0085. Gorgon pwns!!!'

 

And I can't really avoid showing I'm right or wrong by not using a specific example when my entire argument is that all of the weapons are interchangable. If it makes you feel better Arg, re read my posts and supplemnet 'Weapon A' with any gun in the game you want.

[Argoms]

Prove they're interchangeable then. Compare their damage per second (burst/sustained), ammunition efficiency, accuracy, special features (bolts/spinup), mod capabilities. You're claiming to be trying to avoid something because you can't actually back this up, can you?

[Emotitron]

 

"Lol is a beta" thats the point, the devs need fedbacks abou the current state of the game. Pretty much saying the melee weapons are balanced is a cruel joke.

 

LoL has an end game state already, and balancing is EVERYTHING for that game to survive as it is a PvP game.

Warframe has no end game state yet, and minor balancing is not at all important to the games surviving as it is PvE co-op.

Balanced is a meaningless term in this context. The only measure of OP and UP is how much an item gets used vs its alternatives. Pure balance obviously isn't intended when you can buy a LATO or an AKLATO. Clearly the LATO is inferior and players are expected to progress to the AKLATO. There is also no one frame or weapon that is 'best' for everything. Rhino is definitely the easiest for most of the content leading up to endless missions.

You can solo every boss in the game with every gun and every warframe (assuming you have upgraded your mods). Technically everything in the game is OP, unless you are doing endless waves.

If someone wants to 'balance' things... they have to know what they are balancing them for. That something doesn't exist yet.

[Argoms]

By lol he means laugh out loud, not league of legends.

 

I actually can't stand the aklato because of the reduced accuracy, while I'm fine with the regular lato's near-perfect precision. I'm not sure that's the best example.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Argoms

[Judopunch]

Im not sure any argument has been established yet. You guys are not showing or providing examples of how the Snipatron is the same is the gorgon, Bratton, or Hek.

 

Most likely because you cant. They all are completely different and excel at drastically different things and have much different play patterns.

 

Look at the link i previously posted. Each gun has completely different DPS, up time, and target efficiency.