Specters And Other Things

[MadMarlz]

I know this has been discussed a whole lot already but I want to start another thread in hopes that it would bring back attention to the topic.

 

The problem I have is the expenses involved and the fact that they are disposable. Their material expense is one thing. The time expense is another. 

Materials take grinding to obtain. Grinding takes time. Most players do not live in the real world by playing Warframe so time is a precious commodity.

The time expense for just 10 vapor specters is 8 hours + some more grinding for materials. A single mission can last up to only 40 minutes in survival if you're really good. But survival and defense missions aside missions last only minutes.

Basically, Specters cost hours and their use is good for only a few minutes on average.

That, in itself, is an insult to the players. It is literally saying that our time is worthless and that hours of non-refundable time is worth only a few minutes of Warframe in-game.

 

But then again, there are arguments against permanence, stating that the Specters are already quite powerful. That is a true statement. But what about solo players? Many players can sympathize with the fact that not every mission will have an open squad available and not every mission will be possible to complete alone on a lower level. Even if the higher level players can complete every mission solo, I don't think they would mind an extra AI hand to help with trash mobs or even an extra hand to feel less lonely (haha, I'm good at inserting perv jokes).

 

And many players are already clamoring for the permanence in Specters anyways. So what I'm about to suggest is what I consider a compromise.

 

1. Keep the current consumable Specters and their blueprints

 

2. Add in a second type of blueprint for a non-consumable specter

          - The difference between the two types of specter blueprints will be in the amount of resources required

          - Unlike the consumable specters, the non-consumable specter will not have a minimum conclave rating

            and the specter will also retain buffs from mods

          - consumable specters will still retain their variety. but there will only be one kind of permanent specter.

 

3. The consumable specters can be used in public, friends, clan matches and the non-consumable specters can be used only in solo missions

 

4. Non-consumable specters have certain limitations

         - Non-consumable specters will use warframes and weaponry from the inventory: meaning that unless the player            has duplicates of Warframes and weaponry, the specter will 'consume' the items for personal use. Or DE can                add in an equipment manager for the specter

 

5. Specters are technically clones and the game has the element of DNA decay. So like the Kubrow companion, it should slowly decay unless rejuvenated.

          - The other problem I have is with the Kubrow being a paid item even after being brought but at least it is a                     permanent addition

          - I (and other players, I'm sure) am not a big fan of continuing to pay for DNA repairing materials to keep a                     pet alive so if it doesn't have to come down to that, it would be preferred

          - Specters, being Tenno clones, would not function the same as a Kubrow clone since their history is not the                   same. In fact, I would find the Tenno clones to be closer to Grineer composition, minus all the machinery

 

6. Sentinels are far from being as effective as specters during solo play. But replacing sentinels for specters will result in sentinels being unused. So, non-consumable specters should be accessed independently.

          - What this would entail is Ordis having another mod for where the Specter can be accessed. This would be an               extensive patch but not a wasteful patch.

 

7. To avoid anti-social behavior where players avoid public matching, only 1 permanent specter can be owned and only 1 permanent specter can be summoned during a solo match.

 

Other things I want to note:

- creating script for the Specters to actively use abilities at the right situation is difficult. and I would actually recommend not trying because of all the problems that it can cause. However, having weapons and warframes retain their mods should be doable.

 

- Again, I would like to emphasize that the permanent specter can only be used in solo gameplay. While this already doesn't make sense when players in public matches can each summon their own Specter (making a party of 8), there will undoubtedly be a complainer who thinks that permanent specters will completely destroy the game.

 

- The kubrow companion, while fundamentally different from the sentinel by being independent in movement, would not be the same as having a specter partner

 

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The other topic I want to address concerns Solar Rails, Regiments and clans

 

Solar Rails are massive constructions, just gargantuan. Clone regiments are.....just clones.

 

Now let me try to sort out what I've been trying to make sense of.

The Solar Rail takes less time and less resources than a regiment of clones. 

For all you sci-fi fans out there, in which fiction does a massive space station take less time to construct than a few thousand clones? Granted that players do not have a cloning facility (although that would be a great addition for a dojo/fortress), that does not equate for me.

 

I can make out some rationale behind it: the pvp aspect of the Solar Rails. Making the Solar Rail more accessible would mean more pvp but how many clans have enough active clan members to take over a Solar Rail? Well, there are plenty but there also a lot more that do not. Which means potentially thousands of players missing out on Solar Rail pvp fun because of clan inactivity. It's not as simple as switching clans. What about the smaller, tight knit group of friends that run a ghost clan? 

 

What I am suggesting is a compromise to help smaller clans fight on "equal footing" against larger clans. It's hard for me to explain in words so I'll type out a list of what I think would be beneficial to everybody.

 

1. Create a new Clan/dojo module where multiple duplicate blueprints can be created at once.

          - Regiments of the lowest class of specters require 80,000 hours. That is absurd, infuriating and insulting. Even             if the regiments were permanent, almost no clan would be able to acquire one. The number of active members             in a clan who are willing to create consumable specters are going to be less than the number of active                           members within that clan.

            And it is even worse to assume that a player should just join a mega clan of thousands of players just for a                   single regiment. They are clones, for god sake. 

            However, if it was possible to create multiple duplicates of a blueprint at once, it would be more possible. for                 instance, instead of burning through each specter blueprint individually, a player can just burn through all of                 them at once for the same amount of time, provided he has all the materials.

            So why have a dojo module that does that? To make things less easy.

 

2. Another perspective

          - Think about how it is for smaller clans with maybe a dozen members. How will the clan ever obtain a                             regiment? I hate to say it but we do not live and die playing Warframe. Warframe is a past-time, not our                 livelihood.

          - It doesn't take thousands of people to manage cloning at a reasonable rate. If it does, then the Grineer must               have trillions of workers just wasting away, crafting clones for the Grineer army. Trillions of Grineer workers to               maintain an army of maybe a hundred-thousand Grineers that spans the entire solar system. 

            That basically says that despite thousands of years spent in advancing technology, their ability to                   reason out logistics is comparable to that of a mentally challenged monkey.

         - Smaller clans want to compete against larger clans as well, in case you didn't know. But sometimes, quality                  doesn't always trump quantity. Especially when the ratio is extremely unfair.

           Currently, you developers consigned smaller clans to practically little friend circles rather than something that                acts like a clan. The addition of the Solar Rails gave reason for alliances and clans but only the larger clans.

 

3. Make it so that the number of active clan members does not determine the ability of a clan to participate in activities.

 

4. I have never seen a Specter regiment in action but should it become more widely available, I would suggest having a predetermined set of equipment.

 

5. Specter Regiments should also be active in Solar Rail takeovers.

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The underlying complaints:

- The impermanence of gear that would make more sense to be permanent.

- The absurd amount of time involved to create impermanent gear that does not make sense to be impermanent.

          - Medkits are and should be consumable. You never use a used bandage. And a First Aid Kit does not have an               unlimited amount of Neosporin either

          - An advanced healing device takes 1 minute to build

- Assuming that players have thousands of hours to spend on a game

- Consigning smaller clans to uselessness because of clan size

 

If you want to maintain some more realism, there should be assisting features that would make everything accessible to all players and not just the players that belong to a huge group or players who have immortality.

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One last comment. It's not exactly a suggestion or a complaint but it is something I've always wanted to say.

 

When Warframe started out, much of its weaponry was somewhat hardcore sci-fi. The Braton, the Burston, some Grineer and Corpus weaponry all looked like accessories that belonged to a box-office hit movie.

 

As new weaponry came out, they looked more fantastical, more ridiculous and strange as if they came from a C sci-fi film. Some of the guns looked like they were imagined by some 8 year old. They all draw these 'legendary weapon' stuff that may look good on paper (they do not) but would only be legendary in uselessness.

 

I always support imagination but in a sci-fi setting, I never support imagination that does not have practicality or a basis. 

 

From the way the fantastical-ness is going in Warframe, the next thing I might see is a wavy gun in homage to the flamberge. There's a reason why all guns have a straight barrel.

 

Futuristic weaponry does not give creative freedom to create equipment that look like they belong on a fashion runway or some child's halloween magazine (and some children's costumes include fake weaponry that look better than many of what I saw in Warframe).

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I can't continuously write like this, especially now that I've just finished school and am awaiting finals. Its called a burnout.

 

I seriously hope that forum members and administrators would read this in its entirety and provide respectful feedback. I have not included foul language and I have put my own personal time into writing this so i would also very much appreciate it if the forum administrators did not censor (what is there to censor anyways) or delete my post.

 

I have been on and off with Warframe since its beginnings and there is nothing more I want for Warframe than for it to survive and continue to survive in the harsh world of free-to-play games. I also do support Warframe now and then with my money so do not think of me as some leech that only takes but never gives back.

[Vesiga]

Can I get a tl;dr. >->

[Prime]

Can I get a tl;dr. >->

learn to read :P

 

srsly though tl;dr it

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

As long as Archwing is included.

 

 

Holy sith this is niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice<3

 

Should be in Fan concepts though.. lol

 

 

You guys SHOULD READ THIS.

Edited May 9, 2015 by (XB1)LordPuck

[MadMarlz]

learn to read :P

 

srsly though tl;dr it

 

The tl;dr is included and is at the bottom. But my intentions could be misunderstood without reading the post in entirety. I tried my best to cut down intricate details to give a general idea for my compromises.

[Lorthos_Mornin]

Let me attempt a TL;DR:

 

Specters take massive quantities of resources and time for the small amount of time that they are active in game.  Possible solution: permanent, but decaying specter usable in solo only.

 

Specter regiments take insane amounts of resources to build (~80k>more than solar rail) and only very large clans would be able to build them relatively quickly leaving smaller clans in the dust, and completely irrelevant.

 

The resources should be reduced and it should be possible to build multiple specters bps at once, because not everyone has thousands of hours to play wf.

 

Also, the weapons are getting really goofy.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

Tl;dr?? breakdown.

Spectres can be permenant if solo.

Spectres will be cheaper for clans.

 

:) -_-

Edited May 10, 2015 by (XB1)LordPuck

[PapaFragolino]

The tl;dr is included and is at the bottom. But my intentions could be misunderstood without reading the post in entirety. I tried my best to cut down intricate details to give a general idea for my compromises.

 

Rly?

 

[MadMarlz]

Rly?

 

Well, I could expand it a lot more and write an entire treatise if you want. But its not in my best interest to do so at the moment and it certainly doesn't look like people want to read an entire treatise on the subject.

 

Besides, i provided the enough details to support my argument so that it doesn't seem to be made without ample basis. Suggestions made without basis are the weakest of all suggestions.

 

It is akin to going to a Venture Capital to ask for money when the only thing you have to ask for money is a 1 paragraph abstract of the intended business you have for your startup company. Like the abstract of a published paper: pretty useless.

[PapaFragolino]

Well, I could expand it a lot more and write an entire treatise if you want. But its not in my best interest to do so at the moment and it certainly doesn't look like people want to read an entire treatise on the subject.

 

Besides, i provided the enough details to support my argument so that it doesn't seem to be made without ample basis. Suggestions made without basis are the weakest of all suggestions.

 

It is akin to going to a Venture Capital to ask for money when the only thing you have to ask for money is a 1 paragraph abstract of the intended business you have for your startup company. Like the abstract of a published paper: pretty useless.

 

I understand, but there is no point of writing pages of something almost nobody is gonna read.

 

Synthesizing is more important than you think.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

How would solo specters be deployed? The same as a regular specter?

What about commands if any?(Archwing)

[MadMarlz]

How would solo specters be deployed? The same as a regular specter?

What about commands if any?(Archwing)

 

I was thinking about deploying specters in the same way as a player would deploy sentinels. A player can choose to bring along a specter or "unequip" a specter.

 

As for giving commands during an Archwing mission, I thought it would be best to have no ability to give commands during archwing missions and instead, have the player and the specter fly in formation by default. The simplicity would make it easier on the programmers and the players.

 

Or just designate a key to either have the specter stay in a position or follow the player in formation (archwing).

[MadMarlz]

I understand, but there is no point of writing pages of something almost nobody is gonna read.

 

Synthesizing is more important than you think.

 

Synthesizing what though? I don't recall synthesis being mentioned yet...

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

I was thinking about deploying specters in the same way as a player would deploy sentinels. A player can choose to bring along a specter or "unequip" a specter.

 

As for giving commands during an Archwing mission, I thought it would be best to have no ability to give commands during archwing missions and instead, have the player and the specter fly in formation by default. The simplicity would make it easier on the programmers and the players.

 

Or just designate a key to either have the specter stay in a position or follow the player in formation (archwing).

Cool.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

I thought guns were based on Concept, not look.

Isnt it up to DE to decide how a gun looks? As long as they follow whats described as concept, I dont think people would mind a DE twist. Do you?

[MadMarlz]

I thought guns were based on Concept, not look.

Isnt it up to DE to decide how a gun looks? As long as they follow whats described as concept, I dont think people would mind a DE twist. Do you?

 

Which is why I said that it was more of a comment as opposed to a suggestion or a criticism. Although I am leaning towards criticism while on the fence. 

 

I don't mind the DE twist although I did say that it would be nice if they had fiction-science to back up their designs. That would provide additional lore and a reasoning behind their concepts.

 

When ideas and concepts are still on paper, they can be changed. When they are added, they become permanent additions. Again, I'm not against DE concepts but they are leaning towards 'wacky' as of late when compared to their first concept designs. Really. Some recently released weapons do look more reasonable but many others really do border on being too fantastical even for 'high-science-fiction' (my wording for a sci-fi version of high fantasy).

 

In short: I'm confused at DE. They start off with going along a certain design style (leaning towards lo-fi science fiction) and then they alter it to become something that is fantastical.

 

I started playing Warframe not just for the game itself but because I was attracted to the initial style and setting of the game. You can easily tell which equipment came first and which equipment were later generations.

 

DE has to make up its mind in design style. Switching between a lo-fi-(ish) style and a fantastical style does not make things look better. It just looks messy and makes the game look like the developers can't make up their minds about what they want the game to be.

[indaris]

I think this is an awful idea. I like how Spectres are right now. They're just helpful for solo missions or when you need a little extra oomph during a defense mission. We don't need them to be full NPC Tenno minions

[MadMarlz]

But style and design concepts are off-topic here. It's technically irrelevant to the main problem which is the considerable amount of time it takes to use and be a part of certain features in the game.

 

8+hours for a feature that lasts 100 minutes is not reasonable (cheapest is 10 vapor specters and each mission might run average 10 minutes)

 

80,000 hours for a platoon is not reasonable. Even if the work were to be divided among 100 people, 800 consecutive hours is still extremely unreasonable.

 

Not every time cost in-game is ridiculous but when it is used for something temporal, it is an insult. Especially when the return is less than the input.

When a player puts in 10 hours and only receives what is worth maybe 1.75 hours worth of return, that says that the developer thinks that our real-life time is worth less than time in the game. Which also means that the developer assumes that the players don't have their priorities straight and that we would all just waste away playing their game only.

 

There is a limit to how realistic a game can be in terms of time input. 80,000 hours is way beyond the limit. If the ground I stand on earth is to being reasonable and the sky above my head is to being ridiculous, the time required for such features is beyond this sky and is probably somewhere on Pluto. 

 

FYI: 80,000 hours is approximately 9.36 years. An average clan might have up to maybe 75 active members (I'm being optimistic). If each active member were to dedicate to building a platoon, it would mean each member would have to stay up for 44 days 10 hours and around 34-35 minutes.

 

But assuming that people sleep 6 hours, work 8 hours, eat for 2 hours, use the bathroom for about 1 hour, travel for around 2 hours, that would leave only 5 hours a day for Warframe (if one were truly obsessed).

Weekends would see maybe 4 hours of sleep (if you really love Warframe), eat for 1 hour (assuming that you get up for food and eat while playing Warframe), use the bathroom for 1 hour (God, I hope nobody plays Warframe and uses the toilet at the same time. or the shower), that would leave 36 hours of gameplay for Saturday and Sunday.

 

So in total, your average, 8 hour working human with absolutely no life other than work and Warframe would have 61 hours a week to play Warframe. That means the human can make 70(and 6.25) specters in 1 week. Which means that if he were part of a very active clan of 75 members, it would take him 139.89 weeks to achieve his quota in completing a the clan's platoon of clones. That is approximately 2.6 years of having no life and dedicating every other hour to playing Warframe.

 

That entails:

- Having no social life or girlfriend (unless your girlfriend is a Warframe freak). Your friends want you to hang out at a bar? Nope, gotta play Warframe.

 

- Sleeping less on weekends because, hey, screw obligations. No work, let's play Warframe.

 

- Bad hygiene. spending 1 hour a day taking care of yourself is piss poor. Forget about all the negative health issues that are likely to occur after only a few months of living like that.

 

- Forgetting just about every other duty possible. That includes going out for groceries (unless you want to order takeout everyday), washing and folding clothes, cleaning the apartment/house (unless you're a shut-in who lives in his parents' basement), filing out tax forms, paying bills, etc. But maybe you're a millionaire who just has enough money to hire a person who would do all that for you. But millionaires who earned their fortune actually spend a lot of their lives working, not playing.

 

If you want to create a platoon for your Ghost clan? HA. Forget about life. Warframe might as well become your living.

 

The life I illustrated above is obviously very skewed. Your average person does not have 5 hours to play Warframe on weekdays or even 36 hours on weekends. The features are great. The execution is ridiculous and almost unobtainable. Exclusion of certain players is inexcusable.

 

Sorry. I went off on a slight rage again.

[MadMarlz]

I think this is an awful idea. I like how Spectres are right now. They're just helpful for solo missions or when you need a little extra oomph during a defense mission. We don't need them to be full NPC Tenno minions

 

Well, it was more than just 1 idea.

 

I appreciate your input, however. I personally am not in full favor of NPC Tenno-clone minions either but the time-cost to create them affects other features such as the specter platoon for Solar Rail battles. And reducing the time-cost to something reasonable can lead to spamming Specters in missions.

 

Read the whole post next time. The entire post is interconnected (at least 5/6th of it is). When you have, post again to tell me what you think.

[indaris]

I read your entire post already. I can sum it up as "You don't like how Spectres are implemented currently."

My response is "The way Spectres are implemented currently is fine."

Yes, they're expensive. Yes they take time. They're also really powerful.

The cost reflects that.