Trinity Nerf? No Way

[Xoxile]

I got to thinking, does a healer really have a place in Warframe? It's not a typical MMO. We have regenerating shields and red orbs, and the game is balanced around those for parties that may lack Trinity. More importantly, if healing does become important, you'd see the situation where she becomes mandatory for high level missions, and that's no good. I imagine warframes should be balanced around a gameplay niche first and an "element" second; I think that's why her skills are so fundamentally flawed.

She's very useful in higher waves of endless defenses. Besides effortlessly chaining link in bosses faces I think those defenses is where she was meant to shine.

[Judopunch]

She's very useful in higher waves of endless defenses. Besides effortlessly chaining link in bosses faces I think those defenses is where she was meant to shine.

Defense being balanced around not getting oneshot by enemy's with 100,000 HP is bad. The sooner we get rid of ability that make this acceptable the sooner we can get better quality content.

 

Difficulty should not equal HP and Damage, balanced by invulnerability.

[Amistyrja]

idk it's not like Link lasts very long anyway. not like I even need to use it much.

and if people are sad about her being able to solo bosses with vampire and Link, it's not like other frames can't solo bosses just as easily(if not even easier)

[Vorpalstryke]

People get jealous and petty and want their frames the be in the top brackets all the time. They don't realize that this is a co-op team-based game and that every frame has its uses and their own specific situations where they shine. Is Trinity a top damage dealer? Can she clear rooms with one button press? Nope. She can tank bosses and keep herself and her teammates alive a little longer, yes, but she isn't dominating the charts or anything. Look what they did to poor Rhino, who was never a major dps source anyway. Now he's a rather ineffective tank so he can't even do well what he was meant to do anymore. I fear what will happen to the game if the trolls and immature whiners win. It will be all dps and rushing. Support frames like Rhino and Trinity get left in the dust and become useless.

Rhinos and Trinities are supposed to be super durable, they are support frames that don't dps and kill everything but they fulfill useful roles that decrease harm to the team. Instead of nerfing really useful abilities, let's tweak everyone else so they have better abilities as a whole!

Edited May 23, 2013 by Vorpalstryke

[ToeSama]

People get jealous and petty and want their frames the be in the top brackets all the time. They don't realize that this is a co-op team-based game and that every frame has its uses and their own specific situations where they shine. Is Trinity a top damage dealer? Can she clear rooms with one button press? Nope. She can tank bosses and keep herself and her teammates alive a little longer, yes, but she isn't dominating the charts or anything. Look what they did to poor Rhino, who was never a major dps source anyway. Now he's a rather ineffective tank so he can't even do well what he was meant to do anymore. I fear what will happen to the game if the trolls and immature whiners win. It will be all dps and rushing. Support frames like Rhino and Trinity get left in the dust and become useless.

Rhinos and Trinities are supposed to be super durable, they are support frames that don't dps and kill everything but they fulfill useful roles that decrease harm to the team. Instead of nerfing really useful abilities, let's tweak everyone else so they have better abilities as a whole!

 

+1

[Inberun]

Do people even play as Trinity and Rhino? Invincibility is nothing if you don't have a good gun and melee weapon. NOTHING. Invincibility is nothing if you can't kill enemies, you just delayed your imminent death. The ability to kill and disrupt enemies in a large scale is way more OP.

 

Banshee: She can debuff enemies for x4 damage and her Sound Quake turns Corpus and Light Infested to ground meat.

 

Frost: He's invaluable in defense against Grineer and Corpus. His Ulti can hold back enemies in a large scale, hes tanky enough to withstand some punishments in order to deal damage.

 

Nyx: CHAOS. Nothing can beat that. Also Mind Control can turn an Ancient Healer into a healing machine for your team, Toxic into your enemies demises.

 

Vauban: Say hello to his gadgets.

 

Excalibur: Hello Slash Dash. Hello 15k+ damage Radial Javelin.

[Bibliothekar]

Saryn: Whoops, sorry, liquefied the whole room when exhaling (Miasma). :D

 

Ember: Goes away and cries into her pillow. :-(

 

Point is: Link not only grants invulnerability, but it also reflects all the damage back. Activate it, walk into a crowd of Grineer - and even if you don't shoot, they'll be falling like ninepins. That's what buggers many people. Rhino's IS was indeed worthless without good weapons. But Trinity? The better your enemies' weapons, the better is Link.

(Disclosure: I do have a level 30 Trinity. Right now, I prefer to play Saryn, since she's more fun in random squads. And every time, I take my Ember for a walk, I'm sad about how weak her offensive abilities are.)

Edited May 23, 2013 by 0cZc0bibliothekar

[Vorpalstryke]

Saryn: Whoops, sorry, liquefied the whole room when exhaling (Miasma). :D

 

Ember: Goes away and cries into her pillow. :-(

 

Point is: Link not only grants invulnerability, but it also reflects all the damage back. Activate it, walk into a crowd of Grineer - and even if you don't shoot, they'll be falling like ninepins. That's what buggers many people. Rhino's IS was indeed worthless without good weapons. But Trinity? The better your enemies' weapons, the better is Link.

(Disclosure: I do have a level 30 Trinity. Right now, I prefer to play Saryn, since she's more fun in random squads. And every time, I take my Ember for a walk, I'm sad about how weak her offensive abilities are.)

So you're saying that any ability that causes multiple enemies to die with one button press is OP? Sorry, but that would pretty much describe everyone else's ultimate (except Rhino). If you're disappointed with Ember, spend your energy petitioning the developers to improve her. Don't get everyone else nerfed to make yourself feel better about your choice. Saryn is awesome, the Excal is awesome, let's make Ember awesome too!

Edited May 23, 2013 by Vorpalstryke

[Bibliothekar]

No, I'm just saying, that I understand why people react so negative about that ability. I'm not their opinion, but I understand where it comes from. The problem is: Most people don't see it the way you describe it. They're just seeing "She becomes invincible and deals all the damage back". They don't recognize, that - other than those 'frames Crimson_King256 mentioned - she needs some kind of invincibility to make any use of the complete set. Other 'frames don't need invincibility as a skill, for they can clean a whole room with their ult. Neither Rhino nor Trinity have a skill that's capable of doing that. (Ember hasn't as well. But that's for another thread.) Those, who complain about Link and IS haven't thought about, why invincibility is needed for those two 'frames. But we, who need it and want to keep it, have failed as well, because we obviously weren't able to explain it and convince them.

Once again, it's all about communication.

Edited May 23, 2013 by 0cZc0bibliothekar

[FemaleSniper86]

I don't understand where the hate for Link comes from.

 

If every warframe have an uber Power that kills most enemies in the room, like overheat, overload, miasma e.t.c. Why the hell wouldn't Trinity have a similiar thing in Link (like it is now) where the enemy simply kill themselves for the measly 8 seconds it is Active? Besides, if Another warframe activates their uber skill, all/most enemiesin the area dies.

If Trinity activates Link, the enemies have to actually hit or shoot her to make any damage or have a use at all.

 

See my Point?

Edited May 24, 2013 by FemaleSniper86

[Vorpalstryke]

No, I'm just saying, that I understand why people react so negative about that ability. I'm not their opinion, but I understand where it comes from. The problem is: Most people don't see it the way you describe it. They're just seeing "She becomes invincible and deals all the damage back". They don't recognize, that - other than those 'frames Crimson_King256 mentioned - she needs some kind of invincibility to make any use of the complete set. Other 'frames don't need invincibility as a skill, for they can clean a whole room with their ult. Neither Rhino nor Trinity have a skill that's capable of doing that. (Ember hasn't as well. But that's for another thread.) Those, who complain about Link and IS haven't thought about, why invincibility is needed for those two 'frames. But we, who need it and want to keep it, have failed as well, because we obviously weren't able to explain it and convince them.

Once again, it's all about communication.

No I am totally on your side having chosen Rhino as my favorite before his sad nerf. I think I misinterpreted what you said initially. I have written many a long post and lots of constructive criticisms to save Rhino's Iron Skin or at least make it non-spammable but it seems like the developers have decided to side with the trolls on this and are set to get rid of invulnerability. Even though they say that they are only "balancing" Rhino for PvE, I think that they were making an pre-emptive nerf before PvP sparring started to avoid the massive flood of QQing that would inevitably flood the forums.

 

It saddens me though that people fail to understand that this is primarily a co-op game and Rhinos are meant to tank and if you take away their major damage prevention, you ruin their effectiveness. In WoW, paladins had complete damage prevention abilities and the only people that complained were the PvPers that had to fight em. Everyone else in PvE was appreciative when that paladin tank rolled around and came and helped run the dungeons.

 

I am leveling a Trinity now and I totally understand why she also needed invulnerability - how is she going to heal if she can't stay alive? Look at it this way, Rhinos and Trinities remain invulnerable for as long a time as they need to clear a room. Since other frames can clear a room almost instantaneously, they are in effect, taking no damage at that moment when they destroy dozens of enemies. Since Rhinos and Trinities have no room clearing buttons, their invulnerability is supposed to last longer to give them a fighting chance to make the situation they are in better. I think it's very fair and would like to see Trinity untouched and Rhino restored to his prior state.

[Estred]

Rhino user with a bit of salt in mind:

 

Devs decided that godmode buttons are bad, they decided to remove Rhino's one first because it was the most evident.

Now Rhino's player are asking to devs to be consistent with themselves and keep doing it or restore the previous status.

 

That's it.

Except without Link as it stands now Trinity folds in record time if caught out of position at all. If you want Link's Invulnerability removed then buff the living heck out of Trinity's other abilities, atm the only reason really to use her is E-Vamp/Bless from behind crates... Link is her "Oh @#*#%" spell.

 

Rhino especially with Steel Fiber is a friggin wall of "Don't give a @#$#" Iron Skin stil is 80% DR iirc, a Rhino with both that will take a very long time to drop. The damage he tanks would drop 10 Trinity's easially. Really she needs to be rethought out.

 

It's kinda funny all the Female Frames are paper-squishy with the exception of Saryn who is having a bit of an identity issue with some of her skills. Tbh all warframes seem to have that 1 or 2 "useless" skills that are so situational it's not worth the mod points. Banshee's Silence is one such skill, Well of Life is another.

[WARLOCKE]

Trinity needs a major rework. Medic Warframe that can't reliably be a medic and has to be a makeshift tank instead?

 Makeshift? Currently the best tank in the game.  Makeshift...pshhh.

[Ganpot]

My problem with Trinity's invulnerability is that she isn't supposed to be a tank.  She is clearly designed to be the healer class.  Good healers don't stay on the front lines, they support from a distance and make sure no one dies. 

 

If Trinity needs better protection, then DE should give her an ability to force enemies to not target her for 4-6 seconds.  That gives her enough time to run away and find cover. 

 

Just from looking at it, Link was almost certainly designed to allow Trinity to survive by sticking close to a tanky teammate and offloading her recieved damage onto it.  But that would have been useless in solo play, so they allowed it to be used against enemies as well.  Now people have essentially been abusing the ability to the point where Trinity is the main tank of the game. 

 

If Rhino (the supposed tank class) can't have invincibility, then you'd better believe the devs are going to take away Trinity's invincibility eventually.  You should just hope DE decides to buff her other abilities when they make the switch.  My bet is, they won't bother. 

[Toom1275]

Being able to solo-grind bosses is a necessity, not a bug. There is no justification for removing the ability to become invulnerable. Anyone who claims otherwise is clearly not looking out for the best interests of the Tenno cause.

[OneOhOne]

I don't really like where this looks like it's headed, so I'm going to say it right here, right now: Trinity does NOT need a nerf. She needs a rework. There IS a difference.

 

Inb4 founder flood.

If she doesn't need a nerf, then you're saying she needs multiple different skills that make her completely invincible?  Because that's what a rework without a power level decrease would be.  She needs a nerf.

[RalfJones]

Link already has the nerf of not working against the Stalker which forces you to use EV for what?  Stalker could shoot or instakill you if you use Blessing or WOL.

 

Just heard that Link doesn't work in PVP in clan chat.  Anyone want to confirm with a video?  Wasn't there to witness it. 

 

I went against the new Kril and the EV stops giving energy after a few casts.  Either it was a bug or no more EV+ Link combo on bosses.

Edited May 25, 2013 by RalfJones

[Amistyrja]

People get jealous and petty and want their frames the be in the top brackets all the time. They don't realize that this is a co-op team-based game and that every frame has its uses and their own specific situations where they shine. Is Trinity a top damage dealer? Can she clear rooms with one button press? Nope. She can tank bosses and keep herself and her teammates alive a little longer, yes, but she isn't dominating the charts or anything. Look what they did to poor Rhino, who was never a major dps source anyway. Now he's a rather ineffective tank so he can't even do well what he was meant to do anymore. I fear what will happen to the game if the trolls and immature whiners win. It will be all dps and rushing. Support frames like Rhino and Trinity get left in the dust and become useless.

Rhinos and Trinities are supposed to be super durable, they are support frames that don't dps and kill everything but they fulfill useful roles that decrease harm to the team. Instead of nerfing really useful abilities, let's tweak everyone else so they have better abilities as a whole!

Thank you.

[FemaleSniper86]

Ok then, since some still wants to compare Trinity with a Rhino on the "Tanking" abilities, lets look at some facts.

 

A Trinity has at rank 30 a base of:

Health: 300

Shield: 300

Power: 225

Armour: 10

Shield Recharge: 22.5

Sprint speed: 1.0

 

A Rhino has at rank 30 a base of:

Health: 300

Shield: 450

Power: 100

Armour: 150

Shield Recharge: 22.5

Sprint speed: 0.8

 

As you can see, there is a HUGE freakin difference in armour, correct? And now that the Rhino has been nerfed and unnerfed and reworked in a way, some people want to alter with an extremely weaker warframe just because she has a "save-my-a**" ability?

 

Now if you compare these two with for example an Ash, who is both a Stealth and an Offensive warframe, there is a sudden difference again.

 

Ash Basic at rank 30:

Health: 450

Shield: 300

Power: 150

Armour: 75

Shield Recharge: 20

Sprint speed: 1.4

 

Okay, now we see some facts here, looking away from all the modifications with cards e.t.c. coz no warframe is Another alike on that.

Imagine playing a slow Rhino, left behind by his much faster teammates ex. an Ash or a Loki who likes to rush ahead and play with their teleportations. He simpyl activates his 15 seconds long Iron Skin and bashes his way through the enemies like a tank is supposed to do. That is FINE.

 

But if you are a Trinity in the same situation, your Link is your only saviour if you don't have a Rhino that is just as slow as you and you have all those lockdowns or shockwave moas or disruptors e.t.c. to deal with on your own. Link lasts 8 seconds at max, is still not immune to poison, and she CAN'T outrun the enemies, nor stay in Link long enough to actually run through the whole map - coz her EV is useless when her weapons is maxed out on damage (and she really need those weapons to be maxed out).

 

 

 

Now then.... Why is she the greatest Tank out there if you look at the proper statistics?

A tank with an armour of 10? Lowest armour in the game shared with a few other frames. Makes no sense to me.

She is not a tank, she uses Link to survive coz its the only way for her to survive at the moment. And it is very easy to run dry on energy if your teammates keeps killing the enemies you try to gain energy from by EV, or if you have to choose to use either Blessing or Link and don't have enough energy to use anything other than one skill.

 

Just Think plz.

[Ganpot]

Imagine playing a slow Rhino, left behind by his much faster teammates ex. an Ash or a Loki who likes to rush ahead and play with their teleportations. He simpyl activates his 15 seconds long Iron Skin and bashes his way through the enemies like a tank is supposed to do. That is FINE.

 

But if you are a Trinity in the same situation, your Link is your only saviour if you don't have a Rhino that is just as slow as you and you have all those lockdowns or shockwave moas or disruptors e.t.c. to deal with on your own. Link lasts 8 seconds at max, is still not immune to poison, and she CAN'T outrun the enemies, nor stay in Link long enough to actually run through the whole map - coz her EV is useless when her weapons is maxed out on damage (and she really need those weapons to be maxed out).

 

You clearly haven't played Rhino on higher level missions.  Past level 40, his Iron Skin lasts for a couple of seconds.  So, no, he probably wouldn't be automatically fine. 

 

Trinity's Link is broken in that you can tank bosses with it which you couldn't tank with Rhino (post-nerfs).  Trinity also shouldn't have the raw survivability of Rhino because she is a support character.  If you're lone wolfing it all the time, then you're doing it wrong. 

 

Armor is one of the most useless stats in the game, because it has diminishing returns and high level missions revolve around avoiding damage all-together. 

[FemaleSniper86]

instead of seeing it as "tank ability", maybe try seeing it for what it is supposed to be - SURVIVEABILITY.

Shall I part that Word up in two? Survive --- Ability.

 

If a Trinity is fighting a boss, lets just assume she has idiots in her team that keeps dying next to the boss, what is she supposed to do? Run in with her measly 10 (useless in the game) armour and die with them? No, Link is for that situation and to RUN AWAY. But to kill the boss, she needs to fight too. So, use Link.

 

Link in a Group of enemies is more or less useless, coz it simply eats up energy you wont refill if no one has energy syphon and there isn't any random energy orb (that seem to disappear from the ground if it lay there idling too long).

 

 

 

And my mate play as a maxed out Rhino, not any problems for him on the higher levels with lvl 40+ enemies. Maybe you play your Rhino wrong then.

Edited May 25, 2013 by FemaleSniper86

[Amistyrja]

instead of seeing it as "tank ability", maybe try seeing it for what it is supposed to be - SURVIVEABILITY.

Shall I part that Word up in two? Survive --- Ability.

NO SIR TRINITY IS HEALER CLASS SO SHE IS SUPPOSE TO BE MANY FRAGILE AND DIE EASYLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!11!111!1!1! UNFARI DAT SHE HAVE ABILITI DAT CAN TANK WHEN SHE NOT SUPPOSE TO BECAUSE NOT EVERY FRAME SHOULD BE ABLE 2 TANK, SHE SHLD HIDE IN THE BACK LIKE A GUD HEALER AND SPAM BLESS AND VAMPYRE

Boss is alredy esey enuf as it is!!!! Link make it easier!!! Remove et! Dis is game-breaking mechanic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Meltina]

Anyone ever used link in a room full of enemies you can watch as the health bar slowly ticks down and half way kills a gineer lancer before it runs out. I could just shoot them all and one shot them with a bullet each and be done with it. Link is not a damage ability. The scaling between players and enemies are diffrent. The enemies do alot lower damage than players because our health scale is much lower and they have a much higher health scale compared to players to compensate for the damage.

[Ganpot]

If a Trinity is fighting a boss, lets just assume she has idiots in her team that keeps dying next to the boss, what is she supposed to do? Run in with her measly 10 (useless in the game) armour and die with them? No, Link is for that situation and to RUN AWAY. But to kill the boss, she needs to fight too. So, use Link.

 

Except that no one uses Link to run away.  They spam it in combination with Energy Vampire to make the boss slowly kill itself while not doing any damage to the player.  That's a completely broken mechanic.  Not to mention, Trinity should be supporting her allies, so if they are constantly dying, then the Trinity player should probably be using her #1 and #4 skills more often.  

 

Link in a Group of enemies is more or less useless, coz it simply eats up energy you wont refill if no one has energy syphon and there isn't any random energy orb (that seem to disappear from the ground if it lay there idling too long).

 

Link is only truly overpowered against bosses, and only when combined with Energy Vampire. 

 

And my mate play as a maxed out Rhino, not any problems for him on the higher levels with lvl 40+ enemies. Maybe you play your Rhino wrong then.

 

Hiding in a corner to take potshots at enemies does not make for a good tank.  A good tank is in opponents' faces almost every second, because that's the only way to ensure you take the hits instead of your squishy teammates. 

[RalfJones]

Did EV+Link get nerfed?  Tried to use the combo on Kril and the energy doesn't go up immediately.