Excalibur Rework : Press "e" To Win

[RafaelFuchs]

I can't believe posts like this are not a /thread yet.

there are buff or rework for the better [insert frame] threads all the time. they just don't get much attention because they're not as polarizing as nerf threads. people generally agree with frames should be buffed to equal power instead of nerfed to equal power. also, a player whining will get far more attention than a player giving constructive feedback due to whining being much 'louder' in the sense of grabbing attention. it's sad to say this, but whining gets you much farther in the gaming universe than civil conversations.

[Omnimorph]

As I said in another post, if DE go by the principle that an overused ability is due to be nerfed, Exalted Blade is surely due for a nerf, because it's all Excals ever use these days.  "swish swish swish" is all you ever hear.

 

The tears will be delicious :)

 

Or maybe not - maybe DE only go by that principle when it's a farming ability?  Curious to see what happens.

[Jinryusai]

there are buff or rework for the better [insert frame] threads all the time. they just don't get much attention because they're not as polarizing as nerf threads. people generally agree with frames should be buffed to equal power instead of nerfed to equal power. also, a player whining will get far more attention than a player giving constructive feedback due to whining being much 'louder' in the sense of grabbing attention. it's sad to say this, but whining gets you much farther in the gaming universe than civil conversations.

Valkyr's Ripline Is Pathetic And Needs A Buff Whereas Hysteria Needs A Overhaul... Nerfs Are Needed Here People...

 

Putting your theory to the test :

)

Edited July 11, 2015 by Jinryusai

[Alesh]

Why are Exaliburs spamming Exalted Blade? Because 3 of their 4 skills are AoE damage and Exalted Blade is the most efficient of the three. That's all there is to it. You could remove Slash Dash and Radial Javelin and i don't think Excalibur would suffer a noticeable power drop.

 

There's a few things i'd change to hopefully improve this a bit.

While Slash Dash looks quite cool (when it works anyway) i think i'd sacrifice the coolness and just make it always act like when there's no target, so it's always usable and responsive as a mobility tool. Either just damage enemies along the line or make some "virtual" afterimages of Excalibur do the bouncing around and damage while the player frame just charges forward, like he's so fast you just see a few after images and the end position.

 

Radial Javelin i'd honestly get rid of, or just merge with Radial Blind at 75 energy. Pop sword up, blind, slam it down, toss skanas all around. Call it Exalted Flare or whatever. Whatever remains alive you can go and stab.

 

With the free slot i'd add a cheap ranged wave similar to what the current Exalted Blade throws but faster (or less cheap series of waves, maybe one per target in a smallish but long cone). Not sure what to call it, Exalted Slash? Exalted Wave? Too redundant?

 

From Exalted Blade i'd remove the waves as a general thing and perhaps add some more powerful ones at specific parts of combos, which could also include very big but short ranged ones for better AoE, and quick stabby ones for long range. Since now Exalted Blade would be mostly stuck with going melee i'd give it some defense, perhaps in the form of some sort of life drain and/or extra armor.

[IronRoby]

I always run Excalibur with Exalted Blade on (and for other shocking news, I never run a Rhino without Iron Skin on), yet I still use other abilities even without using their syndicate mods that buff my melee damage.

 

Most often Slash Dash. With Stretch on, it is an awesome mobility tool. When spammed in a row, it's a faster way to advance than coptering. If you are using a slow melee weapon, (like (Prisma) Skana or Jaw Sword, which many do, for Syndicate mods and with Skana, even for aesthetics and roleplay), and especially with Spoiled Strike, it can be better than coptering even for jumping over pits. For me, to never use it with EB on makes as much sense as never using Rip Line while in Hysteria.

 

And I use Radial Javelin to clear the screen from those annoying shield and mine drones or to get rid of a lot of weak enemies trying to flank me.

 

Now I use the Blind the least, but that's just because I prefer to get it through a "quick slide attack to a group of enemies, let the EB auto-Blind go off and then Finisher the guys to death" combo. I still use it as a panic button, or before I start rezzing somebody.

 

The point is, just because it makes sense to keep the EB always on, does not mean you won't use any other Excalibur abilities if you have any desire and skill to get the maximum oomph out of your equiped Warframe.

 

And if you have the efficiency mods, of course and (Primed) Flow for bigger energy pool. I think some people here are forgetting that there is a time for newbie players when they don't. It does makes sense for the newbies who start out with Excalibur and who don't yet have them, to preserve energy for Exalted Blade only. But modless newbies having to conserve energy for the best ability is not exactly a good counterargument against any frame. 

Edited July 12, 2015 by IronRoby

[ZeroSample]

I do agree that he's a strong stand-alone frame.

In the end, that's all he is,though.

I imagine he's currently one of the strongest solo frames.

I doubt he's going to become a "meta frame" ,though.

He doesn't bring along all that much to the team,after all.

He doesn't have the utility/cc you'd want for a high-level run squad.

If you were to mod for Exalted Blade (which is probably the best option, at this time),

Radial Blind would become a rather negligible CC.

And even if you decided to mod for Radial Blind, it would be limited by LoS.

As for waveclear, I'm pretty sure everyone is aware that there are so many better and more efficient options.

All in all, I'd say Excalibur is in a similar spot as Valkyr,really strong on their own but not providing much for their teammates.

Then again, Valkyr can be abused for safe revives with her invincibility.

^this

Edited July 12, 2015 by ZeroSample

[MichaelSD]

So no, clearly Exca isnt overpowered and he is a blessing for melee lovers

 

No, he isn't a blessing at all. By the definition of melee, he is not a melee frame at all at the moment.

Edited July 12, 2015 by MichaelSD

[(PSN)ZammnZaddy]

lol people take Excal and other frames to apollodorus and think the frame is too OP  

[(PSN)ZammnZaddy]

lol Gmag and now this yep it's official people no longer want to have multiple ways of enjoying Warframe

[Jinryusai]

No, he isn't a blessing at all. By the definition of melee, he is not a melee frame at all at the moment.

Lets see, the Legend of Zelda hero can shoot things out of his sword when HP is full. If one never gets hit, he can spam all day.

 

Does that mean he is not melee.

 

Who cares of EB shoots waves out of his blade. Melee is melee and if you actually tried the combos, you'd realize they are useless and uninspiring. Infarct, most melee combos for all weapons are.

 

If it weren't for these waves, you'd be calling EB garbage.

 

If they had a better sens of how moves should look, the other combos would be more attractive.

 

Hysteria is not good either. E is all you got, nothing more.

[Jinryusai]

I always run Excalibur with Exalted Blade on (and for other shocking news, I never run a Rhino without Iron Skin on), yet I still use other abilities even without using their syndicate mods that buff my melee damage.

 

Most often Slash Dash. With Stretch on, it is an awesome mobility tool. When spammed in a row, it's a faster way to advance than coptering. If you are using a slow melee weapon, (like (Prisma) Skana or Jaw Sword, which many do, for Syndicate mods and with Skana, even for aesthetics and roleplay), and especially with Spoiled Strike, it can be better than coptering even for jumping over pits. For me, to never use it with EB on makes as much sense as never using Rip Line while in Hysteria.

 

And I use Radial Javelin to clear the screen from those annoying shield and mine drones or to get rid of a lot of weak enemies trying to flank me.

 

Now I use the Blind the least, but that's just because I prefer to get it through a "quick slide attack to a group of enemies, let the EB auto-Blind go off and then Finisher the guys to death" combo. I still use it as a panic button, or before I start rezzing somebody.

 

The point is, just because it makes sense to keep the EB always on, does not mean you won't use any other Excalibur abilities if you have any desire and skill to get the maximum oomph out of your equiped Warframe.

 

And if you have the efficiency mods, of course and (Primed) Flow for bigger energy pool. I think some people here are forgetting that there is a time for newbie players when they don't. It does makes sense for the newbies who start out with Excalibur and who don't yet have them, to preserve energy for Exalted Blade only. But modless newbies having to conserve energy for the best ability is not exactly a good counterargument against any frame. 

They always say this and that makes other powers redundant when all they have to do is press 1, 2, 3...

[TheBrsrkr]

Lets see, the Legend of Zelda hero can shoot things out of his sword when HP is full. If one never gets hit, he can spam all day.

Does that mean he is not melee.

Who cares of EB shoots waves out of his blade. Melee is melee and if you actually tried the combos, you'd realize they are useless and uninspiring. Infarct, most melee combos for all weapons are.

If it weren't for these waves, you'd be calling EB garbage.

If they had a better sens of how moves should look, the other combos would be more attractive.

Hysteria is not good either. E is all you got, nothing more.

The operating words there are when his health is full . This is a parameter that must be met, and requires skilled play and enemy knowledge and awareness to make the most of. That is what makes it balanced. Excalibur and his waves have no such restrictions. You can do it whenever and wherever, with no significant drawbacks. No one here thinks that the waves should be removed. I do not believe that anyone even suggested it. The waves need to reflect the melee-centric (not melee based, mind you) objective Excalibur seeks to fulfil. 40m of 50k damage with infinite punch through is not melee-centric. Discouraging the use of the actual sword is not melee-centric.

[Rakosta_Kai]

The operating words there are when his health is full . This is a parameter that must be met, and requires skilled play and enemy knowledge and awareness to make the most of. That is what makes it balanced. Excalibur and his waves have no such restrictions. You can do it whenever and wherever, with no significant drawbacks. No one here thinks that the waves should be removed. I do not believe that anyone even suggested it. The waves need to reflect the melee-centric (not melee based, mind you) objective Excalibur seeks to fulfil. 40m of 50k damage with infinite punch through is not melee-centric. Discouraging the use of the actual sword is not melee-centric.

 

I don't entirely disagree with you... But the current use by many (minus the bugs) is a mainly a fad, imo.

 

Removing the ability for waves to pass through the environment will remove most of it...

Giving the waves falloff damage would do a lot to curb it as well...

 

Either way, the trend won't last.

It's like bell-bottoms... Trendy but rather useless in the long term.

 

I do disagree with the argument of trade-offs though as there are very few abilities in the game that actually force them to begin with.

Just resolving what would appear to be the obvious punch-through bug (I sure hope it's a bug as they've nerfed enough for the same reason) is probably enough. Giving the waves a GENTLE fall-off mechanic is definitely enough (1% per meter damage fall-off)

 

An EB-happy Excal in a group is contributing, but not chart topping to me at this point... And has to work for everything they get in the process.

I prefer this as opposed to some zombie 4-spamming every room they walk into.

 

If anything, I would rather see frames get more skills like EB and enemies be tuned upward to deal with them.

[Ajreil]

Exalted Blade waves go through solid objects

I agree this is a bit of a balance problem. Strategic maneuvering is what keeps this frame interesting.

 

Exalted Blade waves damage Nullifier shields

Nullifiers were created to counteract a P4TW playstyle that the game is still plagued by. Exalted blade still requires some amount of skill in order to deal with these guys - the need to aim is enough to stop a Draco-style exploit from happening.

 

Exalted Blade can be used indefinitely

This I see no problem with. Using Excalibur it quickly becomes apparent that you need to keep using life strike or use cover to stay alive, which requires some level of skill to use. I don't really think being pushed out of Exalted Blade for energy reasons would compliment the frame.

[Jinryusai]

The operating words there are when his health is full . This is a parameter that must be met, and requires skilled play and enemy knowledge and awareness to make the most of. That is what makes it balanced. Excalibur and his waves have no such restrictions. You can do it whenever and wherever, with no significant drawbacks. No one here thinks that the waves should be removed. I do not believe that anyone even suggested it. The waves need to reflect the melee-centric (not melee based, mind you) objective Excalibur seeks to fulfil. 40m of 50k damage with infinite punch through is not melee-centric. Discouraging the use of the actual sword is not melee-centric.

But the combos don't encourage either.

[-CCC-Secret]

Well, I for one use most of his abilities.

 

I keep EB on cause its drain is low. It makes slash dash more effective. But keeping it on most of the time doesn't mean I don't use any of his other abilities.

 

I use RB and then RJ to clear out weaker enemies, then Slash Dash to attack the tanks (i.e. Heavy Gunners, Bombards). I know my build is weak but it's fun to play with. With Max Efficiency, 190% Range, 142% Strength, and I think 40%-50% of Duration it's really fun. Efficiency so I can spam abilities, and Range for mobility and my RB/RJ.

 

Damage would scale off around 25 waves of T4 but hey I have fun with it and not just press "e" to win.

 

 

[TheBrsrkr]

I don't entirely disagree with you... But the current use by many (minus the bugs) is a mainly a fad, imo.

Removing the ability for waves to pass through the environment will remove most of it...

Giving the waves falloff damage would do a lot to curb it as well...

Either way, the trend won't last.

It's like bell-bottoms... Trendy but rather useless in the long term.

I do disagree with the argument of trade-offs though as there are very few abilities in the game that actually force them to begin with.

Just resolving what would appear to be the obvious punch-through bug (I sure hope it's a bug as they've nerfed enough for the same reason) is probably enough. Giving the waves a GENTLE fall-off mechanic is definitely enough (1% per meter damage fall-off)

An EB-happy Excal in a group is contributing, but not chart topping to me at this point... And has to work for everything they get in the process.

I prefer this as opposed to some zombie 4-spamming every room they walk into.

If anything, I would rather see frames get more skills like EB and enemies be tuned upward to deal with them.

The reason EB needs some kind of limiting factor is because it was designed to be on for a very long time, as suggested by it's high efficiency. The limiting factor can then be mitigated/bypassed by skilled play.

For reference, look at Chroma's Effigy. It provides great CC, good damage and draws fire away from you, and gives you a speed boost. However, it halves your current armor value and drains a hell of a lot of energy. In a fight, you may see another group with bombards or something and think, "him, maybe I should turn off effigy so I can deal with them without dying". Or, "my energy is kind of low and I need it for Vex" because Vex armor will be more useful than Effigy in some situation. Also, skilled play can mitigate these effects. Vex armor can give you survivability when your armor has been halved, and I believe it has an effect on the survival of the actual Effigy (just started playing with Chroma, not sure), Elemental Ward can provide extra damage and other effects depending on your choice of color, and Spectral Scream...... Uhhhhh...... Never mind.

Looking at Exalted Blade, there is literally no reason to turn it off. It does everything for cheap. Range, CC (though small), damage, efficiency and damage reduction. In any situation you can apply any of the other 3 abilities, you can use EB to be almost as, if not more effective. There's no real thought or planning going into it. The only other abilities that do that are the stupidly broken ones, like Peacemaker or Miasma. I don't think we should aim for abilities to be more like those.

My suggestions were, amending previous statements, a 15m wave with 4-5m of punch through on cover, and infinite on enemies. It gives it short and mid range ability, incentivises the use of the sword without demanding it, promotes skilled play and forces players to make a choice, as EB is no longer the end all be all it was. For this to happen though, the combos need something special, befitting of a swordmaster. Radial knock back, ending in a quick finisher, maybe tying a mini RB or RJ into them? Who knows? We'll leave that up to our designers.

Edited July 12, 2015 by TheBrsrkr

[Kasseopea]

I just hope that Ember is next on their rework table - the Ex and Frost buffs are so massive, she would finall become viable again