Alpha Is Alpha: Facts Are More Compelling Than Personal Fictions

[Drusus]

I'm going to say this in its own thread simply because I think it's critical to note and I just can't cover enough ground screaming this in thread after thread.

I will also preface this by saying no, I am not satisfied with the seed rate of Forma, Void keys and so forth. I've already outlined a major step that would improve this problem and simultaneously improve the Alert model here:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/50207-alert-improvements-and-value-proposition-issues/

Despite the above recognition of concern on the current seed levels and models, there are two things this community needs to seriously absorb before they go to crazy town, again, ignoring rational discourse on the subject. Those of you who think this may be addressed to as an attack should be considering if it has validity. I state nothing about the self-proclaimed 'martyrs' all yelling til hoarse on how much doom they want to peddle other than I think they sound ridiculous and self-absorbed.

1. It says in the notes, and I believe in the launcher itself on logging in, that the Dojo system launch is in Alpha, and that by definition means it's not even fully feature complete nor is it final. Yes, we should state that we think the price points are not in line and sensible.

No, we should not be doing it while frothing at the mouth like rabid vermin.

2. The inflated values we see, notably the Forma levels, make sense to set as a start point to work backwards from as a test case. Keep in mind that every time this community has seen even the barest retractions from their desired easy street path forward (and all have their own views of that this may be, it's highly subjective) the outrage has been palpable. We've had such irrational gems as:

"DE is not listening."

"Thanks DE for making me spend money elsewhere."

"DE is greedy and corrupt."

"DE made my favorite broken thing useless and are clearly idiots."

If on the other hand, they released the, I say again, Alpha deployment of the Dojo and new materials system, after burning two straight days of hot fixes to ensure critical bugs are eliminated, and they then start making it more accessible and more achievable, removing what the majority of feedback (and I mean GOOD feedback) outlines as dubious build requirements in the areas of Forma and void key access at current seeded acquisition rates, then how will the community react once more?

"DE listened."

"Told you we were right!"

"Best company ever!"

This kind of drama is useless and lacks a basic comprehension of where this game is at in development. If people are going to ignore the facts of a deployed feature where they are told, outright, it's the ALPHA deployment and therefore subject to heavy change?

By all means, those who are saying how wronged they have been and are ready to quit and how they lament their Founder investment at any level?

Do everyone a favour and if you don't leave, be quiet, as you have guaranteed your points of view are marginalized to the point of not being worth listening to as you cannot read or process the information given.

By contrast, there are some _excellent_ points of feedback on the current structures and where they merit improvements, and I say that as well about some I don't entirely agree with (Aerensiniac, nod to you here; I think you made a valid point mate in your feedback thread, even if I think it's not totally on target). THESE are the people that DE will listen too and are doing themselves and their fellow gamers a worthwhile contribution.

I'm going to make sure I end my diatribe on a simple point of view.

I am not satisfied with the Dojo implementation as it stands. I believe the valuations and address to seed rates of materials needs serious attention and consideration as they are simply not in line with a sustainable or desirable target for play and engagement.

In my opinion, the unfamiliarity with structuring an economy (an admitted weakness by DE) is showing and this needs to be addressed pretty aggressively.

I am, however, aware that this was the alpha deployment intended to first eliminate the outright buggy content and that the desire to balance the economics would very likely be part 2 of that Alpha deployment. Do I think that was necessarily a good idea? No, not really, more paper design thought could hvae spared a lot of turmoil.

Do I think those refinements are pending quickly completely independent from the howler monkeys screaming 'foul play'?

Indeed I do. I for one shall continue to try and be a part of the solution as I greatly enjoy the game presented, even when I disagree with specific DE implementations.

I am no apologist, nor fanboi.

I just prefer to work with facts, not grandstanding idiots' personal fictions.

TLDR;

Alpha deployments mean changes are pending in short order and DE stated it as such. Temper your commentary on the subject with this in mind.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Drusus

[BraveDude8]

It's not Alpha. It's Open Beta.

 

EDIT - Yes yes, I get the idea. Look down. I was tired and I didn't realise that remark was about the Dojo in particular and not the patch in general.

Edited May 25, 2013 by BraveDude8

[Drusus]

It's not Alpha. It's Open Beta.

Read the patch notes. :)

Game is open beta, generally.

Dojos are Alpha released into the Beta game.

You're actually proving my point I suspect, but thank you for the comment all the same.

[Shion963]

+1 this!

 

Dojo research is still in alpha, its requirements may get tweaked in the future to be more accessible, for all we know.

[BraveDude8]

Read the patch notes. :)

Game is open beta, generally.

Dojos are Alpha released into the Beta game.

You're actually proving my point I suspect, but thank you for the comment all the same.

 

Ah, apologies.

 

I forgot the Dojo features were listed as Alpha, I thought you were referring to the game/update as a whole.

[neKroMancer]

QFT, I got bored of these dramatic topics.

[Drusus]

Ah, apologies.

 

I forgot the Dojo features were listed as Alpha, I thought you were referring to the game/update as a whole.

No harm, no foul mate. Thanks for the retraction/correction.

[Gestalt]

All valid points, and yes the forums do badly need some reining in in terms of rage and bile output, but you can't deny the power of community outrage. However senseless it may be, in the end, it would seem like the devs take a lot of notice if lots of players everywhere started to get very &!$$ed off, very fast.

The "alpha" thing (with regards to dojo) is a legitimate defense, but one would hope after the Glaive and Vauban things, DE would at least add an * with a "we know the values are not balanced. We'll be tweaking the numbers and implementing balancing mechanisms in the next minor patches, etc".

Simply slapping an "alpha" onto everything seems like a free pass from* criticism, even though I'm fairly sure that wasn't the intention -- the intention was probably to communicate the fact that the whole dojo thing is an ongoing process.

It is however frustrating to have so many people on the forums brainstorming and debating on how a new major feature like the dojo should be improved (from what we KNEW via livestream 5), and have Steve come out and say they were totally 100% making sure smaller clans could fully utilize the dojo, and when the update hits, nothing at all like that were included: no scaling, no small-clan support, ridiculous numbers, etc.

The devs and Bex keep stressing they are trying to improve on communication with players, but I just keep seeing simple steps they could've taken to ensuring the smooth communication, and for some reason they're not taking them.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Gestalt

[Flunky]

yeah just slap the word "alpha" or "beta" on to your game you charge money for and you're magically absolved of all blame for bad design decisions. it gives your worst fans an excuse to claim all criticism is invalid

[Drusus]

yeah just slap the word "alpha" or "beta" on to your game you charge money for and you're magically absolved of all blame for bad design decisions. it gives your worst fans an excuse to claim all criticism is invalid

Really?

Worst fans? I'm going to assume this is directed at me given the context but you are barking up the wrong tree.

They are not absolved from criticism and as I stated previously, this needs immediate attention and is not satisfactory.

But there is no scenario where the rampant emotionalism flying about is constructive or useful, as you just demonstrated.

I knew full well giving money when it said beta was a high risk choice on my part and it's the kind of thing I have argued voraciously against elsewhere; paying money for the 'privilege' of being a tester is a dubious choice for any of us at best. But I made that decision and I'm sure as hell not going to lament it. I've seen far more reprehensible actions such as selling grand master style access to a _released_ product (TSW comes to mind) only to have it fail technically at basic service delivery for the first month of live release.

If Warframe goes totally south, at least I've had enough fun to get my money's worth so far easily so I won't lament it.

If they state the thing they are pushing out is still a test push, a non-stable push, by calling it Alpha, what else are they to do?

If the answer was simply 'Finish it properly first and not label it as such', well and good, I can actually agree with that line of reasoning and even endorse it; but that would be working under the assumption that we are not in a testing and refinement phase that we all agree to in first place.

The criticisms of this system are not invalid. There are legitimate concerns that need a path of resolution and there is no way this can remain as is without it being called out as poorly done. I think they knew that and as such, framed it as an alpha deployment to try and state they knew it needed more attention but wanted to get it into player hands. And yes, I think they may have figured some people would be daft enough to sink Platinum en masse into it, and on that point I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

Sp while the criticisms and analyses are warranted, some of the critics, on the other hand, have a hard time to be taken with any validity given the lack of constructive approach in their commentary.

[Drusus]

All valid points, and yes the forums do badly need some reining in in terms of rage and bile output, but you can't deny the power of community outrage. However senseless it may be, in the end, it would seem like the devs take a lot of notice if lots of players everywhere started to get very &!$$ed off, very fast.

The "alpha" thing (with regards to dojo) is a legitimate defense, but one would hope after the Glaive and Vauban things, DE would at least add an * with a "we know the values are not balanced. We'll be tweaking the numbers and implementing balancing mechanisms in the next minor patches, etc".

Simply slapping an "alpha" onto everything seems like a free pass from* criticism, even though I'm fairly sure that wasn't the intention -- the intention was probably to communicate the fact that the whole dojo thing is an ongoing process.

It is however frustrating to have so many people on the forums brainstorming and debating on how a new major feature like the dojo should be improved (from what we KNEW via livestream 5), and have Steve come out and say they were totally 100% making sure smaller clans could fully utilize the dojo, and when the update hits, nothing at all like that were included: no scaling, no small-clan support, ridiculous numbers, etc.

The devs and Bex keep stressing they are trying to improve on communication with players, but I just keep seeing simple steps they could've taken to ensuring the smooth communication, and for some reason they're not taking them.

Completely share the point of view that there is a clear disconnect on communication and revelation. I have no argument on this at all and I think the problem is one that is a games industry wide one that I have no real idea how to fix.

Say nothing? Get vilified for not broadcasting your plans (and this btw, can have competitive advantage/marketing issues too).

Say what you are doing? Still get vilified for not doing what is wanted.

Respond to the feedback? Get vilified for caving to the whiners.

At the end of the day, gamer community management starts to look like a pretty no win proposition start to finish in many MMO and online community games. We've all seen the pattern.

Now, despite that little caveat, there needs to be a clearer line between stated goals and presented content and structure. That line here was not well delineated, you are absolutely correct, as the Dojo implementation, Alpha and change pending or not, doesn't jive with the tone of description. The Forma requirements alone per section were NOT advisable to be consistent with an accessible, small clan friendly structure at current rates of in game access. This is indeed a relevant point of feedback and either the requirements need to drop, or as I said in my alert post, the seed rate for all these items needs to increase immediately to balance the scales.

I do wonder how much blind brainstorming we can offer that is useful til we have data to work with thought Gestalt. Seriously, we now have a point of reference to give feedback from as a living entity. Seems to me the feedback we give now, when structured, is the best kind as we have a working point of reference against which to evaluate. In my mind, that was what was expected. I could very well just be overly optimistic in this regard.

Alpha is not a free pass nor should anyone interpret at such. It should, however, be recognized that it's the entry point for the system and not the final form.

Let's be critically and analytically minded so it works properly when finished. Let's not scream the sky is falling because the 'Hey, how's this?' version needs work. When DE says it's final and without change and folks are unhappy?

Then it can be cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria. :)

[Story4]

If it's in alpha then why limit energy weapons to it? Seems like a bad decision to me. If they were in the shop the complaints would be a lot less.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Story4

[BraveDude8]

No harm, no foul mate. Thanks for the retraction/correction.

 

Tired as hell, didn't realise that.

[CompositeGNFNR]

All valid points, and yes the forums do badly need some reining in in terms of rage and bile output, but you can't deny the power of community outrage. However senseless it may be, in the end, it would seem like the devs take a lot of notice if lots of players everywhere started to get very &!$$ed off, very fast.The "alpha" thing (with regards to dojo) is a legitimate defense, but one would hope after the Glaive and Vauban things, DE would at least add an * with a "we know the values are not balanced. We'll be tweaking the numbers and implementing balancing mechanisms in the next minor patches, etc".Simply slapping an "alpha" onto everything seems like a free pass from* criticism, even though I'm fairly sure that wasn't the intention -- the intention was probably to communicate the fact that the whole dojo thing is an ongoing process.It is however frustrating to have so many people on the forums brainstorming and debating on how a new major feature like the dojo should be improved (from what we KNEW via livestream 5), and have Steve come out and say they were totally 100% making sure smaller clans could fully utilize the dojo, and when the update hits, nothing at all like that were included: no scaling, no small-clan support, ridiculous numbers, etc.The devs and Bex keep stressing they are trying to improve on communication with players, but I just keep seeing simple steps they could've taken to ensuring the smooth communication, and for some reason they're not taking them.

The whole point of saying alpha is doing what you Said.

[TheVoxyn]

If it's in alpha then why limit energy weapons to it? Seems like a bad decision to me. If they were in the shop the complaints would be a lot less.

 

You think that'd stop the complaining? That'd stop some, and give way to more complaining elsewhere about the prices of the weapons, etc.

[Worira]

Alpha isn't a build level that should be being released to paying customers, certainly not with the amount of hype the Clan Dojo system got.

[Drusus]

Alpha isn't a build level that should be being released to paying customers, certainly not with the amount of hype the Clan Dojo system got.

And there in is the conflict we have because they allowed the purchase of Platinum for a Beta test environment.

This business practice is a problem in general but we can't solely blame DE for this by any measure.

Fact is, I know I paid money to play in the test environment. My call, my choice.

If anyone has spent money on Warframe, they too, should have (not saying they did, but they SHOULD have) done so with the awareness that it's not ready for 'prime time'.

This is not an isolated phenomenon and we as a consumer base really have set ourselves up here en masse as we've shown we're willing to pay for things that don't work yet. I will say that at least where Warframe is concerned they cannot be accused of misrepresenting the functional state at time of customer investment.

We gave them money with the express understanding we were paying for test game levels of stability and access rights.

Normally, I'd agree with you completely Worira that Alpha level stuff is not something that should go live to a finished product.

Warframe never said they were finished yet and that all materials being released are still test oriented content.

I find it a lot harder to cry foul at that when I know full well I signed on the dotted line to accept the ramifications of this. Anyone with a Founder's tag crying foul without factoring this bit of data into their perspective is being grossly disingenuous or simply ignorant, to be blunt.

As long as we as consumers are willing to pay to play in unstable, test spaces people will happily take our money to let us do so.

And as we are? The fact that the Dojo release is a work in progress is a lot harder case with which to take umbrage.

It needs serious revision and attention but we already agreed to be the guinea pigs for the moment.

[Gestalt]

Completely share the point of view that there is a clear disconnect on communication and revelation. I have no argument on this at all and I think the problem is one that is a games industry wide one that I have no real idea how to fix.

Say nothing? Get vilified for not broadcasting your plans (and this btw, can have competitive advantage/marketing issues too).

Say what you are doing? Still get vilified for not doing what is wanted.

Respond to the feedback? Get vilified for caving to the whiners.

At the end of the day, gamer community management starts to look like a pretty no win proposition start to finish in many MMO and online community games. We've all seen the pattern.

Now, despite that little caveat, there needs to be a clearer line between stated goals and presented content and structure. That line here was not well delineated, you are absolutely correct, as the Dojo implementation, Alpha and change pending or not, doesn't jive with the tone of description. The Forma requirements alone per section were NOT advisable to be consistent with an accessible, small clan friendly structure at current rates of in game access. This is indeed a relevant point of feedback and either the requirements need to drop, or as I said in my alert post, the seed rate for all these items needs to increase immediately to balance the scales.

I do wonder how much blind brainstorming we can offer that is useful til we have data to work with thought Gestalt. Seriously, we now have a point of reference to give feedback from as a living entity. Seems to me the feedback we give now, when structured, is the best kind as we have a working point of reference against which to evaluate. In my mind, that was what was expected. I could very well just be overly optimistic in this regard.

Alpha is not a free pass nor should anyone interpret at such. It should, however, be recognized that it's the entry point for the system and not the final form.

Let's be critically and analytically minded so it works properly when finished. Let's not scream the sky is falling because the 'Hey, how's this?' version needs work. When DE says it's final and without change and folks are unhappy?

Then it can be cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria. :)

Yeah, this is why I've been trying really hard to cut back on over-analyzing things that have not even been implemented (in this case, starting and participating in long discussions regarding dojo before U8 even hit), but generally failing in doing so. I think part of it is trying to voice an opinion and see if enough people support said opinion, and then if enough do, hopefully catching the attention of the devs and alter their design even a little before they roll out the changes. But now I see this isn't how DE does things, so I guess I'll stop with that.

And thanks for that, I've been wanting to link Tseric's famous words:

"Can't help it.

Posting impassionately, they say you don't care.

Posting nothing, they say you ignore.

Posting with passion, you incite trolls.

Posting fluff, you say nonsense.

Post with what facts you have, they whittle down with rationale.

There is no win.

There is only slow degradation.

Take note. It is the first and only time you'll see someone in my position make that position.

You can be me when I'm gone."

From the legendary CM Tseric of WoW fame. http://www.wowwiki.com/Tseric

I try to keep his perspective in mind when I get frustrated with this game's design decisions and DE's communication; try to dial it down a few notches if I can.

[Fjarri]

Sigh overall I would actually be for the most part fine if they rethink Forma and cut the prices in half for EVERYTHING (on a monetary, not platinum level)

Edited May 25, 2013 by Fjarri

[Drusus]

Sigh overall I would actually be for the most part fine if they rethink Forma and cut the prices in half for EVERYTHING (on a monetary, not platinum level)

And that is an opinion that is discreet, understandable, not rife with melodrama and that DE can actually take to heart and consider with clear components of what it is that is actionable (i.e. that Forma overall is simply not where you feel it should be and the Plat acquisition prices over all feel greatly inflated to you). Doesn't mean they can or will act on your desires but that's a measurable set of feedback for them to consider without lots of hyperbole or hate.

I can completely understand why you feel this way.

[pixelsafoison]

So in short, you're calling almost everyone an idiot just because we're unhappy with the patch? ^_^, quite a huge ego for a fellow piece of meat - If i don't like a patch i just express it, and I don't even hate this one I just find it "meh" because ATM clan mechanics are broken (everyone's joining the HUGE clans, hell, the one i joined jumped from 400 members yesterday to 1.3k a few hours ago), I doubt DE will fix things properly but either way i'm happy with the fact that i'm going to get new toys (weapons) - Still, if something makes me upset and that you're just asking me, a paying customer, to shut up just because you see the world in a different light .... errr ... nope, not even in your dreams...

[Drusus]

So in short, you're calling almost everyone an idiot just because we're unhappy with the patch? ^_^, quite a huge ego for a fellow piece of meat - If i don't like a patch i just express it, and I don't even hate this one I just find it "meh" because ATM clan mechanics are broken (everyone's joining the HUGE clans, hell, the one i joined jumped from 400 members yesterday to 1.3k a few hours ago), I doubt DE will fix things properly but either way i'm happy with the fact that i'm going to get new toys (weapons) - Still, if something makes me upset and that you're just asking me, a paying customer, to shut up just because you see the world in a different light .... errr ... nope, not even in your dreams...

To be clear, what you just outlined was entirely appropriate and not at all what I was taking aim at whatsoever.

By all means, voice your critique and comments as you have outlined above and I will be the first to defend your right and desire to do so.

The people I was hostile towards are those that have been making a career of claiming deep emotional trust violations and trauma, threatening to leave and how they have been betrayed, while offering nothing useful. I had read my n'th post of pure melodrama and my usual posting temperament suffered.

My sincere apologies if you felt that applied to you, but your post above suggest a far more rational and even tempered approach. You were not at all intended to be captured in the comment and for that I am sorry.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Drusus