Analyzing What Makes A Good Melee System And How To Bring That To Warfame(Long Read)

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

Welcome to KaxMcC's weeky useless idea thread. Topic of dicussion "Why are other game's melee systems better than Warframe's". So I'm going to be doing a lot of comparative analysis and making vauge meaningless suggestions based on them. Lets get started.

 

Issues with the current melee system

 

-Viability: the entirety of melee only play loses viability the further you get into end game.

 

-Combo system is bad. Most combos are easily ignored in favor of a few useful ones. Which get repeated to ad infinitium. Combo system lacks purpose and depth.

 

-Enemies are not designed around melee play very well.

 

-Channelling isn't really as useful as it could be. And even when you do channel it doesn't really add anything significantly different in terms of gameplay.

 

-Blocking isn't useful at all anymore. In terms of defensive design melee has never really been quite there.

 

-Lack of overall depth. There aren't any mechanics that take time to master or that offer a significant amount of longevity on their own.

 

 

So, just fair warning, my suggestions are kinda gonna be all over the place. I plan on proposing several different solutions to these issues, hopefully with good examples, to give a wide breadth of possible courses of action. Mainly because I want to push across a general theme rather than a specific idea. After all, there are plenty of decent melee combat systems that can work depending on how DE wants the game to play.

 

Combo system

 

The main reason why Warframe's combo system fails is because there aren't enough factors that matter enough during combat. To make combos diverse there needs to be a reason to choose an attack that has nothing to do with damage. While damage is the ultimate end goal the use of several different attacks should be the best way to get that damage. Lets take a look at how other games handle this.

 

 

DmC 4:

DmC's combo system has combo variety  two main reasons Combo cancelling and strict situational viability of combos. Cancelling one combo into another  allows the player to skip the delay that follows the end of each combo thus increasing burst DPS. Since the player can only perform each action once per combo string the player will eventually reach the end of their combo but proper execution of each action can significantly lengthen the combo. Additionally, ground to air attacks and chaser attacks allow the player to follow enemies between combo strings which creates a decent combat flow. Situational viability means that every combo or action has a specific purpose that is immediately relevant to combat in a way that isn't necessarily always damage based. For example, Stinger and full house can be used to reposition the player or chase an enemy, Drive can be used to attack enemies at a range and launch them into the air, popper and shredder can launch enemies and deal multiple hits to stun targets more easily. High damage attacks are generally much slower which makes them riskier than quick attacks. This allows quick attacks to get a lot of use due to their low risk and high damage attacks to get use during situations in which players get an opening. It's important to note that the player can actually play towards this situation by properly positioning themselves and stunning enemies properly. This allows the player to work towards the strongest attacks by using the weaker ones as a stepping stone, ensuring the use of all available attacks.

 

Ninja Gaiden:

Ninja gaiden's combo system is full of attacks that encroach on each others territory, purpose wise, but using a multitude of combos is still important due to the way enemies react to your attacks. Enemies will regularly avoid your attacks or counter you if you repeat too often. Players also have incentive to perform grapple combos for high damage, perform short combos when attack windows are short, perform aerial and wall attacks when available for their high damage and range and so on. Ninja gaiden doesn't do as well in this regard as DmC does but it makes up for it with solid defensive mechanics and damn good enemy design.

 

Dark Souls:

Worth a mention despite it's difference in pace. DaS encourages the use of every attack by associating risk with each maneuver and making each attack very position and state sensitive. Every attack has a risk associated with it proportional to the amount of damage it does creating a situation similar to the one I mentioned at the end of the DmC section. Attacks are also very range dependent meaning that players will always choose the attack appropriate to the position the player is in.

 

Arkham style/Shadow of Mordor:

Also worth a mention despite the lack of complexity. These games opt to remove the per-attack comboing in favor of a more automatic combo system that changes dynamically on its own. They create two different combo types depending on the enemy state. A regular combo and a special combo on stunned enemies. The stun combo acts as a more powerful but more risky version of the standard combo since it is easier to get hit during its execution. In addition to that, the combo is required to be used when fighting certain enemies. While this combo system removes the need to encourage combo diversity by simplifying it to two states, it also removes the possibility of offensive combo depth for people who want it.

 

Assassins creed Unity:

Despite the quality of the rest of the game the combat was pretty solid. There isn't a lot of combo variety but light/heavy attacks need to be chosen correctly to attack certain enemies. Light attacks can be parried and heavy attacks can be dodged so the player will need to switch between the two depending on the enemy type, similar to Ninja Gaiden but less extensive and enemy reactions are more direct.

 

Sleeping dogs:

The combo system in this game uses light and heavy attacks to perform attacks with different effects. As you combat more difficult enemies they will cycle their defenses so that only specific combos will be able to affect them. Simple but effective.

 

FFXV/Kingdom Hearts BBS style:

While the nuances of the combat in each game make them feel different their combo systems are very similar. The basic combos are all handled automatically while button mashing but the player can mix special attacks into their combos each of which is situationally useful. In Kingdom hearts special attacks are limited by a cool down so they can't be spammed but in FFXV the attacks are  designed in such a way that usually the situation will dictate which attack is most effective.

 

The general theme here speaks to one major thing. There absolutely need to be more factors that affect melee combat in order to ensure that there is a reason to use separate attacks. Things like stun potential, attack speed, guard breaking potential, range, cancelling potential, and risk factors are used to create various attacks that need to be switched between in these other games. But each of these can easily be made irrelevant through the presence or absence of certain mechanics.

 

One thing you can do to start creating relevance in combat is by doing something I call "state building". Sate building is the idea of envisioning a number of possible situations a player may find themselves in and then giving the player an ideal action for that sate. When you run out neutral states, start manufacturing negative states through additional limitations. Then give the player the tools to overcome those negative states.

 

Admittedly, I just came up with this recently and I'm no game dev so this may or may not actually be any good. But the idea remains consistent among the games I've mentioned. Neutral states can exist based on enemy and player positioning such as the player's distance from an enemy and the number of and direction of enemies surrounding the player you see this in heavy use in a game like Dark souls where attacks of varying ranges are used. There are also environmental states that can be used like the wall attacks from Ninja Gaiden. There are then negative states that can be created through player limitations or enemy advantages. Locking the player in place during an attack is one such negative state. In both DmC and Ninja Gaiden heavily powered attacks also lock the player in place allowing the player to get hit if timed incorrectly. This allows for attacks that have greater capabilities in comparison to others to be added without losing their situational nature. Enemies can also create negative states through resistances and counter actions. Assassins Creed, Sleeping dogs, DmC, and Shadow of mordor all do this.

 

One neutral state unique to Warframe is the constant presence of ranged enemy fire. So attacks that also defend would have good reason to be used on a regular basis.

 

 

Enemies

 

Enemies are a pretty huge topic on their own because there are a ton of ways to do enemies correctly and twice as many ways to do them incorrectly. The vast majority of games have a mix of well done and poorly done enemies as well which makes looking at a single example out of context not very helpful. So when talking about enemy design I want to stress one thing as the most important.

 

In order to make good challenging enemies they must always be designed around testing the capabilities of the players.

 

In other words in order to make a legitimately challenging mechanic it must be designed to test the players ability at doing something in the game.

 

Time for examples. These are going to be about specific enemies from a few games so if you are unfamiliar with a certain game I'd recommend either skipping over it or looking into it rather than trying to dissect why these enemies are good out of the context of the game they are in.
 

I'm also really bad at names so I'm just gonna describe each enemy.

 

DMC(the reboot):

Large fat demon

 

• Armored from the front & vulnerable from behind - Test the players capability to position themselves correctly.
• Counter attacks occasionally when being attacked from behind - Telegraphed and meant to be dodged. Tests player's attentiveness and reaction time.
• Stun immune - Test the player's capability to choose the correct attacks**. Enemy follows a consistent pattern. Learning that pattern allows the player to adequately predict the enemy's counter attacks.
• Vulnerable to a certain launcher attack - Test the player's capability to execute the attack with proper timing. It's very slow and thus risky. The player must ensure that they will not be countered while charging it.
• The above attack can also be executed during the enemy's attack which once again tests the player's ability to read the enemy's attacks and time the attack effectively.

 

**For clarification the player's attacks lock them in position throughout. Choosing a slow attack when the enemy is about to counter will guarantee that the player is hit.

 

Masked katana weilding demon

 

• Invulnerable to firearms - Disables the player's capability to fire on them from a distance. Forces the player to use other tactics.
• Blocks Direct attacks - Disables the player's capability to simply attack them from any direction. Forces the player to use other tactics.
• Counterattacks players who attempt to attack directly - Once again, discourages a frontal assault. Its worth noting that these counters are also avoidable if the player has decent reactions.
• Vulnerable to damage during attacks - Test the players capability to time their strikes accordingly. The punishment for doing so incorrectly is that the player is hit by the attack they were trying to counter.
• Stunned when attacks are parried - Parries are basically performed by attacking the enemy just as they are about to land a hit on the player. Test the players timing.

 

In case you haven't played, the katana demons are meant to be very high challenge enemies. That is why the method to defeat them is strictly counter based. The fat demon is meant to be moderately challenging so the method of defeat is more accessible. Overall DMC tests the player's ability to choose attacks correctly, execute those attacks, position themselves accordingly, their reaction time, and their ability to predict enemy movements. Every enemy in the game is meant to challenge one of those areas and the challenge varies in intensity depending on the number of enemies being fought at once. All in all, while the enemies aren't spectacular they are very solid.

 

Ninja Gaiden 2:

Claw ninja(high difficulty level):

 

• Circles the player when at a range to surround them - Tests the player's positioning skill
• Attacks the player with ninja stars from a range - Can be both dodged and blocked  but are very fast. Test players reaction time
• Performs a combo that ends in a guard break - Test the player's ability to read the enemy's attacks. Dodging the guard break can open the enemy up to a counter attack in addition to avoiding the guard break
• Grab attacks - Unblockable but dodgable.  Tend to be relatively quick and deal decent amounts of damage. Test the players ability to read enemy attacks. Telegraphed very well and still provide a decent challenge.
• Counter attack player's attacks when either their execution is too slow or they repeat the same combo too often - Test the players capability to execute the entirety of the combos available to them.
• Very high attack frequency when several are present - Test the player's ability to use the block & counter mechanics effectively. Also test the player's ability to choose when to attack. Attacks make the player vulnerable in the same way as they do in DMC.

 

2nd level boss/Spider clan ninja guy:

 

• Blocks direct attacks when idle - Discourages frontal assault.
• Counter attacks easy access attacks such as the jump slash - Discourages repeated use of easy access maneuvers
• Vulnerable to damage when attacking - Test the players ability to place their attacks with efficient timing. This sounds much much easier to do than it actually is.
• Long elaborate combos with multiple guard breaking attacks per combo - Test the players capability to recover after a guard break(timing) and read the enemy's attacks to avoid the guard break later on.
• Quick and varied initial attacks - test the player's capability to predict and counter the enemy's initial strike.

 

Ninja Gaiden probably has some of the most well designed enemies I've ever encountered. They manage to be extremely challenging without actually being unfair in any way. They encourage the use of each and every aspect of offense and defense. And they scale up in difficulty through the addition of extra attacks and capabilities along with the standard damage increase. There is much to learn form these enemies even if hardcore difficulty isn't your thing.

 

Shadow of Mordor:

The enemies in this game are fairly simple individually so I'm gonna list more than two.

 

Basic melee enemy:

• Attacks at regular intervals along with other enemies - regular attacks can be parried with good timing. Tests player's attentiveness and timing.

 

Ranged enemy

• Attacks from a distance at regular intervals. Attacks are telegraphed but not displayed like melee attacks are. - Tests player's awareness of their surrounding. Ranged attacks are easily dodgable when the player knows they are coming.

 

Shielded enemy

• Attacks cannot be parried and must instead be dodged - test player's ability to choose the appropriate defensive mechanic based on the attack.
• Attacks from the front are blocked - Requires player to vault an enemy before being able to do damage. Tests positioning capability.

 

Berserker enemy

• Counters regular attacks. Must be stunned before taking damage - Tests player's attack execution capability and awareness.

 

The enemies in this game are decent and fair but they lack the challenge that comes with the enemies from the other games I've mentioned.The one major complaint I heard about the combat in this game was that it was too easy after a certain point. This is mostly due to the fact that the player is given a large number of low effort capabilities and no high effort ones. With a lack of high effort capabilities to challenge enemies turn out much easier overall if they are designed fairly.

 

Gears of War:

Grinder:

• Chaingun deals a steady stream of bullets IN INTERVALS* . Enemy plays audio cue prior to firing its weapon-Tests players positioning capability. Due to the heavy availability of cover players are expected to be able to find and take cover throughout the duration of a grinders attacks. During the lag time the player is then free to reposition themselves to continue to engage this enemy and the others.
• Tanky but slow moving. Allows the enemy to provide a persistent threat without always requiring the player's immediate attention.

 

*This is in caps mostly because we have a very similar enemy in Warframe but a very small nuance makes this enemy a more legitimate challenge. The fact that the grinder attacks in clearly distinguishable( because of the audio cue) intervals allows the player to play around the enemy effectively while in combat with enemies of other types.

 

This is incredibly important. Enemy prioritization as a skill can not be effectively challenged if the player isn't able to put themselves in a situation where their attention can be focused on a single threat at a time.

 

If the player is expected to prioritize a target, there should be a situation they can manufacture in which they can focus on only that target for a certain amount of time. This doesn't mean that other enemies need to back off but it does mean that the player needs to have enough defensive capability to avoid incoming damage from other targets while engaging a priority target. Food for thought.

 

Kantus:

• Heals dead grub units - Forces target  prioritization. Test player's capability to identify and eliminate targets in the correct order.
• Scream attack causes knockdown in a small aoe - Forces players to remain at a distance when in combat. Test player's positioning and awareness
• Extremely vulnerable to headshots - Test players aim.

 

Scorcher(I think that’s the name)

• Attacks with a flame thrower doing significant damage to players in range - Once again test players positioning capability and enemy identification

 

Clicker/ticker/whatever:

• Chases players and explodes - Test player's capability to identify the location of and destroy the enemy before they can reach the player's position. Pretty straight forward.

 

Gears of War is very much a game of positioning so that skill is the one that is being tested regardless of enemy type. One thing I didn't mention that also holds significance is the map the player plays on. Learning effective routes of travel aids heavily in positioning yourself correctly so the creation of those routes is just as important as enemy design in concerns to the resulting challenge. The most important take away from gears of war's enemies is the way they effectively handled enemy prioritization as a challenge.

 

Destiny:

I'm not gonna go over specific enemies in destiny. Rather, due to it's similarities to Warframe, I'm just going to give an overall synopsis on what skills are being challenged and why they remain persistent despite character and enemy level.

 

In any given bout of combat Destiny challenges a player's aiming capacity by constantly( and significantly) rewarding weak spot hits. It also challenges a player's capability to use the movement mechanics of their class. Strafing, jumping, teleporting, and double jumping all serve as effective means of avoiding enemy fire. It tests the player's capability to position themselves appropriately in their environment. Enemies can still score hits on the player by attacking from their flank regardless of movements like strafing and jumping. So it is necessary to position yourself according to the enemies movements. Additionally, taking cover is often an effective means of avoiding damage long enough for the player to recover. This allows the player to use movement skill as a primary means of defense when in the open and take cover to recover from mistakes made while going on the offensive.

 

 As enemies scale upwards in damage and health their core functionalities do not change and as such the player's capability in executing the skills above always remain significantly relevant during combat. In theory, a player that executes properly should be able to avoid all incoming damage. While in practice that is rarely the case it does leave players something to strive for and gives reason to improving in those skills. This also means that enemies that specifically test those skills can continue to be added to create further challenging content.

 

The only thing you have to avoid when adjusting enemy level scaling is if at some point during progression one or all of the skills mentioned above lose relevance due to either a player or enemy capability. Once they lose relevance the only thing that influences success and failure is the player's equipment. Thus the only challenge would be preparation based. And while that isn't necessarily the end of the world, Preparation challenges are intrinsically more shallow and provide less longevity when compared to execution challenges.

 

One thing that persists amont the games that have decent enemy design is the relationship between player capabiliy and enemy capability. While there is plenty of level scaling to worry about, the main focus of enemy design should be on how those enemies interact with and challenge the player's usage of the game's mechanics. Along with that enemies can receive the standard health and damage increases to increase the length of engagements and punish mistakes more severely. As long as the enemies are designed towards that goal I think they will have the capability to provide interesting and fair challenges throughout the game.

 

Channeling

 

The core issues behind why channeling is bad really just comes down to two things:

•  there are too few situations in which it is worth using. Especially since it takes energy that can be used more efficiently in other ways.
•  At the end of the day a weapon modded for channeling is pretty much exactly the same as a weapon that ignores channeling entirely. One just requires you to trigger it on before doing anything.

 

So I'd suggest doing the following.

 

First, adjust how energy drain affects channeling. It can be either:

• A drain over time like exalted blade
• Be cast like a duration based ability for a certain amount of energy
• Trigger on when certain requirements are met but require no energy(Like witch time in Bayonetta)
• Require no energy and differentiate channeling and non channeling enough to encourage switching between the two situationally(like styles in DmC4)

 

Second, change channeling effects to differ significantly from regular mod effects. Things like:

• Additional combos being made available while channeling
• Channeling exclusive status effects
• Additional melee-centric movement capabilities. Like quick steps or (DmC)Vergil's teleport.
• Ghost blades that add additional strikes on enemies or block incoming fire.
• Multi counter. Counter kill several enemies at once.
• Increased defensive capabilities. Like auto parries.
• Weapon summoning( replace current weapon with another when channeling)

 

Or whatever else you might think of. The whole point of offering a different state is to get something out of it that the current state lacks. More DPS is nice but it is both non-optimal in most situations and terribly uninteresting. As far as energy consumption goes it is currently just a barrier to entry that needs to get lowered or made reasonable. Any action that takes energy is going to be competing against powers for that resoruce so channeling as an alternate state needs to either lose its energy dependance or be balanced similar to how a power is.

 

Channeling doesn't have to become the most interesting thing in the world over night though. I'd suggest reworking energy drain then releasing quality mods over time to ensure each one adds something significant.

 

 

Blocking

 

 So due recent and unfortunate circumstances blocking has been made entirely pointless. But this is a good jumping point to start talking about defensive mechanics as a whole when it comes to melee. DE is in a petty bad spot because, as far as I know, there isn't any game that currently exists that combines melee and gunplay in a way that actually works. But lets give it a try anyways.

 

What we want is for melee players to be able to defend against any type of incoming damage in some way. Preferably several ways ranging from easy to difficult to perform. Then we can design enemies to test a player's performance in these mechanics.

 

So I'll propose a few changes then explain them - This is idea is very much a WiP so keep that in mind:

• Two types of blocking. A light block that resembles what we currently have, blocks attacks from the front  and a full block with 360 degree AoE blocking both with 100% damage reduction.
• Light blocking occurs when moving while blocking. Full blocks occur when the player is immobile.
• Blocking now has a guard break meter. Once the meter reaches zero the player will be stunned and unable to block for a short time. Basically Ninja Gaiden's guard break with a longer recovery. Damage taken to the light block results in less guard drainage than the full block.
• When the player is blocking any ranged attack in a full guard they can aim at an enemy and press the channel key to perform a guard step. A guard step is basically a short dash like maneuver that allows the player to move a short distance and guard simultaneously. Additionally damage blocked during a guard step does not drain the guard break meter. Guard steps cost a static amount of energy to perform and can only be performed on enemies currently attacking the player.
• Guard step will drain energy upon the completion of the maneuver and running into an enemy during a guard step will cancel the maneuver early and perform a quick attack on them. During the collision there is a short window in which another guard step can be triggered before the energy drain is applied. Each additional guard step must be triggered on a new enemy. This allows players with good timing to chain guard steps and cover a decent amount of distance without taking damage to their guard meter and thus give it time to recover.
• Certain attacks will now have a short window in which they will deflect incoming ranged fire from whatever direction they are aimed in. Deflected attacks will not drain from the guard meter.
• Pressing the channel key while light blocking will perform a counter action similar to the one in Ninja Gaiden. If a melee strike lands on the player during the counter action the player will counter the attack.

 

This idea is far from perfect but my main line of reasoning is that at long ranges the player will be able to utilize the light block and proper positioning through the use of parkour to block incoming damage. At mid and close range, where the player is most likely to be surrounded they can use a combination of the full block and guard steps to quickly maneuver between enemies either by utilizing energy or their skills with timing. During attacks players can then utilize defensive attacks along with their shields to avoid damage to their health.

 

Ranged enemies can then provide a challenge by out maneuvering and surrounding players and by using telegraphed attacks that will immediately break the players guard but can be dodged. Melee enemies can provide a challenge by dealing a mix of attacks that need to either be countered or dodged depending on the situation and through capabilities such as guarding and countering(similar to the enemies in the DMC reboot).

 

 

Also just so you know guard step was heavily inspired by this:

 

 

Also, before I forget, returning to resource based blocking means that, first off, you will need to account for active recovery. That means letting the player recover without needing to disengage combat. My idea for guard steps sort of touches on that but if you hate that idea please keep this in mind. Second, the resoruce drain either needs to remain persistent despite enemy level and drain based on enemy types and actions(preffered) or have some way to scale up with the enemies.

 

The main two complaints about the old stamina system in concerns to melee were that it continued to drain constantly leaving it unusable and that it didn't scale in any way.

 

Depth/Final thoughts

 

Hopefully someone can actually get something out of this nonsense but if not( or if you didn't read it at all) here's what I mostly wanted to push across. In order for the combo system to become decent, there  first needs to be more factors that significantly impact either offense or defense. Enemies need to be designed entirely around player capabilities. Channeling, as an alternate state, needs to be more than a stat buffer. Melee defense needs a major rework to become viable but penatrable and everything needs more emphasis on depth of play.

 

Mechanics need to be designed so that a player will need to spend a significant amount of time with them before getting everything out of them. There are plenty of good examples out there to pull from but the bottom line is that depth comes from asking something of your players and allowing them to strive to achieve it.

 

Thanks for reading.

Edited September 29, 2015 by (PS4)KaxMcc

[timerwin63]

Someone give this man a cookie!

 

 

Nah, but really, I enjoyed reading your thread a great deal and think that you brought up some very valid points and  great ideas. I'm a tad worried about long-term melee viability at all, though, simply through the nature of the game (it being a horde shoot-em-up kind of thing) and how you'd be able to adjust any given combo system to account for the fact that instead of fighting, say, 3-7 or 8 people in Shadow of Mordor (or less in some other games), you'll have to deal with upwards of 15-20 sometimes.

 

I also like the fact that you brought up Destiny's combat system and the way it inherently scales with the player, despite how... sensitive the subject can be with the community.

 

Overall, I'd say it's a very strong set of suggestions and should absolutely be taken into account when the inevitable Melee 3.0 drops.

[Radon086]

These are really great ideas, but I wonder if they suits Warframe well. Warframe is a game heavily features "Super(and not 100% ninja in fact :p) Powers and Guns",thus it is inevitable that melee combat system serves as a supportive/ineffective role in Warframe.

 

And here are my two concerns:

 

A. Combo systems are designed to be powerful and handy in melee focused game like those you mentioned above. In those games, a well developed melee system is player's butter and bread to face the challenge. Therefore, players should be highly rewarded if they dig into melee strategies more. For example, Nero's caliber+JC air combo in DMC or enter god mode by abusing block/counter strikes in Shadow of Mordor and AC series. But on the other hand, range attacks aren't super effective in these games comparing with Warframe. Simply because these games features sword play, and encourages player to stick to their main features(or the coolest part in brief) . 

    Since Warframe is a game which focus on "Super Powers and Guns" , I don't fully support ideas about making melee system "absolute perfect ". But yes, some idea already existed like channeling could be polished. 

 

B. An enemy which seems to have great design concepts in melee combat games might not survive or mess up gaming experience in a much different game such as Warframe. A worthy opponent in a melee focused game suffers a high chance to become pointless pitiful scumbag in Warframe because they are no match for Tenno's hard CC and powerful arsenal. Or simply becomes an annoying bullet sponge, which often happens when designers can't find a clever way to address their position.

    Sometimes a game can't have all or specific kind of enemy because of the limits of its design.There are different types of great games, and they all have their tailored villains to make them shine. Warframe already has a group of competent villains, so I wonder if it is necessary to add new type of enemy that based on "melee focused game's concept".                 

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

Someone give this man a cookie!

 

 

Nah, but really, I enjoyed reading your thread a great deal and think that you brought up some very valid points and  great ideas. I'm a tad worried about long-term melee viability at all, though, simply through the nature of the game (it being a horde shoot-em-up kind of thing) and how you'd be able to adjust any given combo system to account for the fact that instead of fighting, say, 3-7 or 8 people in Shadow of Mordor (or less in some other games), you'll have to deal with upwards of 15-20 sometimes.

 

I also like the fact that you brought up Destiny's combat system and the way it inherently scales with the player, despite how... sensitive the subject can be with the community.

 

Overall, I'd say it's a very strong set of suggestions and should absolutely be taken into account when the inevitable Melee 3.0 drops.

 

Thanks for the read!

 

You also bring up an interesting point. One thing I noticed when playing Legendary dark knight mode in DmC 4( In case you don't know it's basically 3 times more enemies than this game is designed for-mode) Is that the main factor that gets screwed with when enemy count increases is actually more defense than it is offense. Despite DmC being a 1 vs many game the offensive mechanics are geared very heavily towards focusing on one target at a time. Despite that, the player is capable of allocating enough time to kill each target due to how powerful the defensive capabilites are in that game. The Legendary Dark Knight mode screwed things up a little due to the fact that enemies could easily crowd you and interrupt your attacks pretty much constantly as you tried to focus on your target of choice. But due to how quickly the player was able to flow between offense and defense you could pretty much always walk away unscathed if you had good timing and knew how to read enemies.

 

There's also the possibility of attacks that hit multiple enemies at once and using buffs from temporary states like channeling or ultimate attacks like in Ninja gaiden to clear out large amounts of fodder at once.

[(PSN)MikeCopa]

I've created a similar thread a while back:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/515836-brainstorming-on-melee-30-and-stances-wall-of-text-tldr/

 

I agree on a lot of what you said and I feel like this is a really important topic that needs to be addressed soonish because it would arguably make the game way more fun and diverse to play.

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

These are really great ideas, but I wonder if they suits Warframe well. Warframe is a game heavily features "Super(and not 100% ninja in fact :p) Powers and Guns",thus it is inevitable that melee combat system serves as a supportive/ineffective role in Warframe.

 

And here are my two concerns:

 

A. Combo systems are designed to be powerful and handy in melee focused game like those you mentioned above. In those games, a well developed melee system is player's butter and bread to face the challenge. Therefore, players should be highly rewarded if they dig into melee strategies more. For example, Nero's caliber+JC air combo in DMC or enter god mode by abusing block/counter strikes in Shadow of Mordor and AC series. But on the other hand, range attacks aren't super effective in these games comparing with Warframe. Simply because these games features sword play, and encourages player to stick to their main features(or the coolest part in brief) . 

    Since Warframe is a game which focus on "Super Powers and Guns" , I don't fully support ideas about making melee system "absolute perfect ". But yes, some idea already existed like channeling could be polished. 

 

B. An enemy which seems to have great design concepts in melee combat games might not survive or mess up gaming experience in a much different game such as Warframe. A worthy opponent in a melee focused game suffers a high chance to become pointless pitiful scumbag in Warframe because they are no match for Tenno's hard CC and powerful arsenal. Or simply becomes an annoying bullet sponge, which often happens when designers can't find a clever way to address their position.

    Sometimes a game can't have all or specific kind of enemy because of the limits of its design.There are different types of great games, and they all have their tailored villains to make them shine. Warframe already has a group of competent villains, so I wonder if it is necessary to add new type of enemy that based on "melee focused game's concept".                 

 

I can't say I agree with the notion that melee needs to remain supportive or inneffective. The idea of embracing melee as it's own playstyle is the same as making shotguns or snipers viable. Its to enable people who enjoy that style of play to dive deep into it and get somthing out of it. Also, Tenno are said to be masters of the gun and blade. Melee gameplay is part of the sales pitch.

A. While it is true that the games you mentioned stick to a particular style of gameplay, It isn't because enabling both styles of play would be bad or detract from the experience. It's because focusing on a single aspect of play allows the developers to squeeze every drop of quality out of it. Not to mention, devs like the ones at Capcom have come to specialze in that style of play since they have multiple installments to build off of. While I wouldn't say DE doesn't have much to focus on, when the time comes for DE to hone in on melee improvements they will have the liberty to do so without needing to divert their attention to other systems. Because systems like gunplay and parkour have already been completed(to an extent).

B.When I spoke about enemies, honestly I was talking about all enemy types across both melee and gun focused games. I mentioned both Destiny and Gears of War as examples despite neither of them being melee focused because all of those games speak to the same point. I can agree that making melee enemies designed to combat players with guns in a legitimately challenging way is pretty difficult. In addition to that, the current player capabilities make it difficult to design legitimate challenges period. But there are a few examples of melee enemies that can pose a threat to players with guns. Stealth units, for example. I wouldn't discount the dev's cleverness without giving them a chance to try but, addmittedly, this would be a decent target for suggestions.

 

[Radon086]

I can't say I agree with the notion that melee needs to remain supportive or inneffective. The idea of embracing melee as it's own playstyle is the same as making shotguns or snipers viable. Its to enable people who enjoy that style of play to dive deep into it and get somthing out of it. Also, Tenno are said to be masters of the gun and blade. Melee gameplay is part of the sales pitch.

A. While it is true that the games you mentioned stick to a particular style of gameplay, It isn't because enabling both styles of play would be bad or detract from the experience. It's because focusing on a single aspect of play allows the developers to squeeze every drop of quality out of it. Not to mention, devs like the ones at Capcom have come to specialze in that style of play since they have multiple installments to build off of. While I wouldn't say DE doesn't have much to focus on, when the time comes for DE to hone in on melee improvements they will have the liberty to do so without needing to divert their attention to other systems. Because systems like gunplay and parkour have already been completed(to an extent).

B.When I spoke about enemies, honestly I was talking about all enemy types across both melee and gun focused games. I mentioned both Destiny and Gears of War as examples despite neither of them being melee focused because all of those games speak to the same point. I can agree that making melee enemies designed to combat players with guns in a legitimately challenging way is pretty difficult. In addition to that, the current player capabilities make it difficult to design legitimate challenges period. But there are a few examples of melee enemies that can pose a threat to players with guns. Stealth units, for example. I wouldn't discount the dev's cleverness without giving them a chance to try but, addmittedly, this would be a decent target for suggestions.

 

Actually,my thoughts are more close to "Face the fact that we can't have a too powerful melee system due to some unchangeable game limitation" than "leave the current melee system without some improvement". I'm a fan of melee, and I love to explore melee play style in Warframe(Like radio blind Excal, Ice Chroma + crazy heavy weapon combos...). I do wish some change to make our melee system be more smooth and reliable(personally, I long for the ability to quick swap from carrying guns to melee stance ). But I would rather accept some limitation on melee than take the risk of making the game unnecessarily complex. I have faith in DE's capability to make this game better, but sometimes I just can't consider everything too promising regarding the current result of AW and PVP. Must say, a revolutionary change could strike the game hard, and I'm the type of player that feel a little hesitation to big changes.

 

To be honest I'm not really familiar to Destiny and Gear of War, so I can't picture an accurate Warframe melee world with such concept. Since the current Warframe is like 4 vs tons of enemy,the picture of Warframe with advance melee system  in my mind is a bit more like DMC's LDK mode (Legendary Dark Knight), with melee players play as Dante/Nero/Virgil and gun players play as Lady. It is obvious that even in such situation have unbalanced problems. Lady(Guns) can easily take out every kind of enemy regardless how challenging they are when facing with blades. And the white hair guys(Melee) will always suffer because of high level enemy damage and low kills per sec,even they have more stylish moves. Sounds still like the current game play, isn't it? 

 

I know people might consider "Then why not make melee even more powerful?". Well, imaging a Tenno starts to deal ridiculous fast DPS by cancelling combos with Crimson Dervish. Or a squishy frame starts to tank bombard damage by blocks. I might be a bit exaggerate, but big changes always brings a new world. Since the current melee system is already partial decent, I think a tiny augment(mods,channeling,swaping... ) is enough.            

 

However, I'm still glad to hear other games can reach a good melee system even along with gunplay. At least someone tells me it's not totally impossible, and I can look forward to if there is be a big change about melee in future.   

[Burnthesteak87]

I can't believe this Thread got so low credit and feedback. Cheer KaxMcc. This is golden feedback, pure experience and clear analysys sharing.
Also I'd like sharing some ideas.

1) I thought about some "ping-pong deflection projectile-defense" to be added on quick melee and generic attacks, since the actual parry is useless and cumbersome.
Something ala Lightsaber fight reflecting-projectiles, just added to quick attacks and combos, thus resolving the situation of while melee-stanced being prone to ranged attacks.

2) Guard step can be achieved through the use of Shift (which is used for dodgerolls and sprints usually), maybe in Melee Only it can turn into a Dash move.

3) Another problem with Melee is the Sustain. LifeStrike and Rage (in particular) aren't features built correctly with a balanced melee in mind, just an adaptation. Which makes them bad and toxic for the gameplay.
Warframes should get rewarded for staying melee with sustain in Vitality, Energy or devastating effects for completing combos for reaching tot Melee Combo Counters. Maybe depleting a Syndacate like AOE with similar effects. Can't say.


Excellent work, applauses.
 

Edited January 1, 2016 by Burnthesteak87

[hukurokuju5]

BLOCKING is strong AF with certain weapons giving 85% damage reduction..... pair with rage and you get the damage reduction WHILE STILL GAINING ENERGY BASED ON UNREDUCED DAMAGE

 

( 100 damage unreduced >> blocked 85% >> take 15 damage >> rage energy restore calculates from the 100 unreduced damage)

 

 

used in tandem with frame abilities that already have damage reduction and you have ridiculous survivability vs 180 degrees in front of you

 

 

THE MAIN WEAKNESS OF MELEE

 is the fact that you have to unblock to attack, and at some point you must attack if you are blocking.

some frames can cover this weakness with cc or stealth, however. 

 

Other frames *SARYN cough* are confronted with the dilema of having to block while closing distance, then attacking while simultaneously opening themselves up to unmitigated damage, which can be instantly fatal at high levels.  At lower levels blocking is even stronger, as enemies cant really do much damage in short amounts of time, making the timeframe, when you are attacking, not as punishing.

 

the abundance of CC abilities though makes windows of damage trading pretty easy though...

[dmirtygorachyov]

Eugh, encouraging immobility in melee is just terrible. Its already slow as shiet. Adding so much focus on blocking would make it even worse.