Can We Fix Rng This Way

[MyXmaN]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/54941-rng-vs-tokens-vote/

 

Ive created a poll about rng and stuff, feel free to vote or post your ideas there.

[Uboros]

It was a bad example.  For one thing, you're not paying to run raids, you're paying to play the game.  That and there are piles of better games that don't make me spend money or rely on rng in order to take a shot at rng.    I can't think of a single good game that actually makes people go through this mess.  Feel free to mention some if I've missed them.

First of all, this comment did nothing helpful at all lol. Second, "you're not paying to run raids, you're paying to play the game.", if you dont pay you cant run raids, and to alot of people running raids is playing the game. As for your tons of games I see that even though i specifically asked you to name just one you named none that support your argument. Also so far all I'm hearing from you is how much you hate wow, nothing about actually changing the loot system in this game or any supportive opinions on how to make it better. What exactly are you doing here?

 

And im not sure why part of that is in a white box but oh well.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Uboros

[Aggh]

First of all, this comment did nothing helpful at all lol. Second, "you're not paying to run raids, you're paying to play the game.", if you dont pay you cant run raids, and to alot of people running raids is playing the game. As for your tons of games I see that even though i specifically asked you to name just one you named none that support your argument. Also so far all I'm hearing from you is how much you hate wow, nothing about actually changing the loot system in this game or any supportive opinions on how to make it better. What exactly are you doing here?

 

And im not sure why part of that is in a white box but oh well.

 

Raids aren't the only part of wow last I checked.  If you don't pay, you can't play the game at all.  It doesn't matter what people think, the simple fact is that they are paying to play the game, and raids happen to be part of that.

 

How about System shock 2, Deus ex , Diablo, Diablo II, Unreal tournament, Quake, Torchlight 1 & 2?  The fact that some of those aren't dungeon crawlers is irrelevant btw, they are excellent games that don't have to rely on dodgy tactics like this to get people to keep playing.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Aggh

[Uboros]

Raids aren't the only part of wow last I checked.  If you don't pay, you can't play the game at all.  It doesn't matter what people think, the simple fact is that they are paying to play the game, and raids happen to be part of that.

 

How about System shock 2, Deus ex , Diablo, Diablo II, Unreal tournament, Quake, Torchlight 1 & 2?  The fact that some of those aren't dungeon crawlers is irrelevant btw, they are excellent games that don't have to rely on dodgy tactics like this to get people to keep playing.

Pretty sure I'm gonna regret even replying to you again but here it goes. First of all you are totally not getting my point about paying for wow, and if after explaining it once you decided to completely ignore what i said and just go on im not gonna bother trying again. Second what I asked for with examples were games that require farming to get gear, and increase the chances of you getting the rarer items if you get the more common items multiple times. Since you clearly arent actually reading the posts and understanding it I'm pretty sure I'm not going to get anything constructive from you so this will be my last reply to you. You can take that as a victory if you want I guess. You should really learn to understand what people are saying before jumping on them and biting their throats out.

[Aggh]

Pretty sure I'm gonna regret even replying to you again but here it goes. First of all you are totally not getting my point about paying for wow, and if after explaining it once you decided to completely ignore what i said and just go on im not gonna bother trying again. Second what I asked for with examples were games that require farming to get gear, and increase the chances of you getting the rarer items if you get the more common items multiple times. Since you clearly arent actually reading the posts and understanding it I'm pretty sure I'm not going to get anything constructive from you so this will be my last reply to you. You can take that as a victory if you want I guess. You should really learn to understand what people are saying before jumping on them and biting their throats out.

 

I do get your point, and it's based on a completely misguided and ill founded understanding of how things work.  If peoples' money was actually going specifically to the cost of raids, you'd have a point.  That's not how it works though.  It's an important distinction since people have paid quite a bit of money over a short period of time on void runs and not gotten much out of it.

 

Four of the games in that list do meet those criteria.  I included the other games to see if you'd actually understand the real problem that this system presents, but I guess that is beyond your understanding.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Aggh

[Co_Re]

"But right now it just sounds like you complaining about something that has been a part of games like this for years."
so farming isn't fun but refining it into a system to make it more enjoyable for players who have farmed 100+ mission and received nothing is just complaining about something that's part of the game?

refining farming is necessary if you don't want people to rage quit the game forever after doing missions 100+ and not receiving the item they want.  

i'm coming up with a solution, while you sit there and say that its ok, because later on when they get the items they are farming for it will be fun. 
but guess what.
some people will never get the drop that are farming for, and that will make them rage quit never getting the item they farm for

[Uboros]

I do get your point, and it's based on a completely misguided and ill founded understanding of how things work.  If peoples' money was actually going specifically to the cost of raids, you'd have a point.  That's not how it works though.  It's an important distinction since people have paid quite a bit of money over a short period of time on void runs and not gotten much out of it.

 

Four of the games in that list do meet those criteria.  I included the other games to see if you'd actually understand the real problem that this system presents, but I guess that is beyond your understanding.

My point for paying for wow raids in math form. Paying for wow = being able to play wow. Being able to play wow = being able to raid. Paying for wow = being able to raid. Not paying for wow = not being able to raid. Feel free to check my math on that one.

 

What you guys bought with your platinum were keys that give access to the void zone and a chance at getting drops from it. Not the actual gear, if you didnt realise this when you bought them then its your own fault.

 

What four games have farming as a way to get gear and increase the chances of getting rare materials when you get more of the common ones in a row. Specifics and a link to that part of the game play would be really helpful instead of this attitude of, go look at all these things im sure its in there somewhere.

 

And yet again, I see absolutely nothing in your posts about how to improve the system, just more complaining.

 

Guess I lied about not responding anymore, tis one of my weaknesses.

[Uboros]

"But right now it just sounds like you complaining about something that has been a part of games like this for years."

so farming isn't fun but refining it into a system to make it more enjoyable for players who have farmed 100+ mission and received nothing is just complaining about something that's part of the game?

refining farming is necessary if you don't want people to rage quit the game forever after doing missions 100+ and not receiving the item they want.  

i'm coming up with a solution, while you sit there and say that its ok, because later on when they get the items they are farming for it will be fun. 

but guess what.

some people will never get the drop that are farming for, and that will make them rage quit never getting the item they farm for

I've had plenty of things that I've wanted in games that i farmed for and never got. I don't recall ever rage quitting because of it, but i also know that its a game and that it is the way it is for a reason. So far the only reason you have given to support your idea is that it would make the people not willing to continue doing the same work everyone else has to do slightly happier, until there is something else they don't like. You also haven't given an example of where your idea has worked.

[Co_Re]

World of warcraft does this with certain bosses. pokemon does it according to time though rather than pokemon in inventory. 

even changing the % drop rates according to time is a great way to make it less enraging. 

[Aggh]

My point for paying for wow raids in math form. Paying for wow = being able to play wow. Being able to play wow = being able to raid. Paying for wow = being able to raid. Not paying for wow = not being able to raid. Feel free to check my math on that one.

 

What you guys bought with your platinum were keys that give access to the void zone and a chance at getting drops from it. Not the actual gear, if you didnt realise this when you bought them then its your own fault.

 

What four games have farming as a way to get gear and increase the chances of getting rare materials when you get more of the common ones in a row. Specifics and a link to that part of the game play would be really helpful instead of this attitude of, go look at all these things im sure its in there somewhere.

 

And yet again, I see absolutely nothing in your posts about how to improve the system, just more complaining.

 

Guess I lied about not responding anymore, tis one of my weaknesses.

 

 

There is a big difference between paying for a game and paying for specific content within it.  If you don't understand that, it's probably not worth continuing this conversation.

 

I haven't spent a single cent on void keys.  I understood right away that the system wasn't well thought out or well implemented and would clearly need some reworking/bug fixing. 

 

What?  When the hell was I talking about increasing drop rates?  My first post in this thread was to point out that the void key system was the main problem.  The same can be said for the alert system.  It's the infrastructure surrounding the rng that is the real problem here, changing the rng will just either make it too easy or do nothing at all.

 

Having tower I & II keys drop at a more reasonable rate than they are atm would alleviate many of the problems that the current system presents.  People would still have an incentive to buy void key packs for tower III keys, but free players would actually be able to actively grind the void, which isn't really possible for them atm unless they have friends/clan mates dumping cash into void key packs.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Aggh

[Uboros]

World of warcraft does this with certain bosses. pokemon does it according to time though rather than pokemon in inventory. 

even changing the % drop rates according to time is a great way to make it less enraging. 

What boss in warcraft increases the chance of dropping an item they havent dropped the more times you run it? Show me proof please cause I never heard of this but i havent played wow for a few months so maybe its new.

 

I also have no idea what you are talking about in pokemon...are you saying the more time you spend playing the game without seeing or catching a rare pokemon will increase the chances of it appearing? Cause I've also never heard that before so again proof.

[Uboros]

There is an important difference between paying for a game and paying for specific content within it. 

 

I haven't spent a single cent on void keys.  I understood right away that the system wasn't well thought out or well implemented and would clearly need some reworking/bug fixing. 

 

What?  When the hell was I talking about increasing drop rates?  My first post in this thread was to point out that the void key system was the main problem.  The same can be said for the alert system.  It's the infrastructure surrounding the rng that is the real problem here, changing the rng will just either make it too easy or do nothing at all.

 

Having tower I & II keys drop at a more reasonable rate than they are atm would alleviate many of the problems that the current system presents.  People would still have an incentive to buy void key packs for tower III keys, but free players would actually be able to actively grind the void, which isn't really possible for them atm unless they have friends/clan mates dumping cash into void key packs.

So basically....you came into a topic aimed at one thing...and *@##$ed about something completely different....and then you wonder why you havent been understanding anything I've been talking about....

[Co_Re]

There is an important difference between paying for a game and paying for specific content within it. 

 

I haven't spent a single cent on void keys.  I understood right away that the system wasn't well thought out or well implemented and would clearly need some reworking/bug fixing. 

 

What?  When the hell was I talking about increasing drop rates?  My first post in this thread was to point out that the void key system was the main problem.  The same can be said for the alert system.  It's the infrastructure surrounding the rng that is the real problem here, changing the rng will just either make it too easy or do nothing at all.

 

Having tower I & II keys drop at a more reasonable rate than they are atm would alleviate many of the problems that the current system presents.  People would still have an incentive to buy void key packs for tower III keys, but free players would actually be able to actively grind the void, which isn't really possible for them atm unless they have friends/clan mates dumping cash into void key packs.

yup, as for me i dumped $$ into void keys making me the designated void man to help out all of my clan mates who want a chance at it without farming forever.

[xavierjn]

I'm not sure if they have changed WoW recently, as I stopped playing a while ago.  Right when I stopped playing, they implemented the % chance of getting loot with coins.  At the time, I believe the only difference was that if you used a Coin and got nothing, you had a greater chance of getting 'something' next time, and so on and so on, until you got an item and the loot % reset.

 

Comparing that system to Warframe doesn't really work, IMO.  Warframe already has a ton of drops.  Implementing a system like WoW had back then would only mean a system where:  You run a mission, receive no Mods or such, and the next mission your chance of getting Mods or rare material would be higher.

 

Warframe already has a ton of drops.  they satisfy me and still excite me when I see a Mod drop.  Yeah, I get disappointed when it's a Steel Fiber again, but I keep killing and hoping.

 

It took me over 100 hours to get Flow.  I'm over 120 hours now and am still trying and trying and hoping for a Hell's Chamber for my Hek.  I get frustrated, sure, but I still can play the game just fine without it.  I just want it, so I keep farming it.  Farming is the only End Game in Warframe right now, so if that's what I have to do while I have a blast destroying Infested...I will :-)

[Co_Re]

What boss in warcraft increases the chance of dropping an item they havent dropped the more times you run it? Show me proof please cause I never heard of this but i havent played wow for a few months so maybe its new.

 

I also have no idea what you are talking about in pokemon...are you saying the more time you spend playing the game without seeing or catching a rare pokemon will increase the chances of it appearing? Cause I've also never heard that before so again proof.

in world of warcraft, some enemies wont' drop items if you already have it,as a simple check. i don't know all the items it happens to

(http://www.wowhead.com/item=94295/primal-egg)

pokemon rates of rarity, shine, behavior, and actual species depends on time of day and a few other factors. but time is actually a huge factor of what kind of pokemon will show up.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generation_in_Pok%C3%A9mon#In_the_Pok.C3.A9mon_games

 

for example when trying to breed certain pokemon depends on time and a few other factors.

this does exist in other games as well but i don't remember which. 

[Co_Re]

I'm not sure if they have changed WoW recently, as I stopped playing a while ago.  Right when I stopped playing, they implemented the % chance of getting loot with coins.  At the time, I believe the only difference was that if you used a Coin and got nothing, you had a greater chance of getting 'something' next time, and so on and so on, until you got an item and the loot % reset.

 

Comparing that system to Warframe doesn't really work, IMO.  Warframe already has a ton of drops.  Implementing a system like WoW had back then would only mean a system where:  You run a mission, receive no Mods or such, and the next mission your chance of getting Mods or rare material would be higher.

 

Warframe already has a ton of drops.  they satisfy me and still excite me when I see a Mod drop.  Yeah, I get disappointed when it's a Steel Fiber again, but I keep killing and hoping.

 

It took me over 100 hours to get Flow.  I'm over 120 hours now and am still trying and trying and hoping for a Hell's Chamber for my Hek.  I get frustrated, sure, but I still can play the game just fine without it.  I just want it, so I keep farming it.  Farming is the only End Game in Warframe right now, so if that's what I have to do while I have a blast destroying Infested...I will :-)

sure having something new drop is awesome. but for void situations for those who don't want to dish out $ its painfullllll, and honestly that is not a great endgame if you can look forward to farming. 

then again its beta so i'm sure the end game will get better, as it already is getting better with the dojo

[Aggh]

So basically....you came into a topic aimed at one thing...and *@##$ed about something completely different....and then you wonder why you havent been understanding anything I've been talking about....

It's directly related to the problem that is the topic of discussion and would address the core issue that is actually causing threads like this.

[Co_Re]

It's directly related to the problem that is the topic of discussion and would address the core issue that is actually causing threads like this.

uboros is just mad because he likes to play with manure for long periods of time, and won't take for anyone making him play with less of it

[Uboros]

in world of warcraft, some enemies wont' drop items if you already have it,as a simple check. i don't know all the items it happens to

(http://www.wowhead.com/item=94295/primal-egg)

pokemon rates of rarity, shine, behavior, and actual species depends on time of day and a few other factors. but time is actually a huge factor of what kind of pokemon will show up.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generation_in_Pok%C3%A9mon#In_the_Pok.C3.A9mon_games

 

for example when trying to breed certain pokemon depends on time and a few other factors.

this does exist in other games as well but i don't remember which. 

Both of those examples have nothing to do with what we are talking about....

[Uboros]

 

It's directly related to the problem that is the topic of discussion and would address the core issue that is actually causing threads like this.

 

considering RNG drops is such a problem (example those people who defeat a boss a 100+ times and still don't get 3/3 parts they need) why not make it a little less random?

For example

lets say i haven't run through the void. (0 void drops)

then i run through 3 times and get 3 latron prime blueprints

now after having so many latron prime blueprints the %chance of me getting them should decrease according to the number of drops i already have. 
or
according to the blueprints/drops i have the Chance of me getting the other parts should increase.

The original issue was he wants drop chance to increase the more times you dont get the item, that has nothing to do with what you are complaining about. It isnt that he doesnt want rng, even though he probably doesnt, it is that he wants to CHANGE the rng to not be random....thats the whole thing i havent been agreeing with the whole time....again nothing to do with what you were talking about and still you cant give specifics to show that situation no matter how many times i specifically tell you exactly what you need to show me. But whatever im gonna keep playing warframe, and enjoy the fact that people like you two who only complain to complain will not get what they want and eventually stop playing a game and miss out.

[Co_Re]

rng would be random, just not as random, even though it isn't as rng as you would think
example tier 1 vs tier 3 void run drop tables.

but you can keep being a negative nancy about the entire thing, not look at my sources that actually show games that use different options to this "rng"  

[Aggh]

 

 

It's directly related to the problem that is the topic of discussion and would address the core issue that is actually causing threads like this.

 

The original issue was he wants drop chance to increase the more times you dont get the item, that has nothing to do with what you are complaining about. It isnt that he doesnt want rng, even though he probably doesnt, it is that he wants to CHANGE the rng to not be random....thats the whole thing i havent been agreeing with the whole time....again nothing to do with what you were talking about and still you cant give specifics to show that situation no matter how many times i specifically tell you exactly what you need to show me. But whatever im gonna keep playing warframe, and enjoy the fact that people like you two who only complain to complain will not get what they want and eventually stop playing a game and miss out.

 

It has everything to do with it.  The way that so much worthwhile stuff is tied behind rng on top of rng is why people are complaining about rng.  If people had easier access to void missions (at least the lower tier tower runs) they wouldn't be nearly as mad about this.  The reason why people are getting worked up over running fifty tower runs and not getting a single reaper blade is because that cost them ~$50.  People are mad because the effort/cash they're putting into the system isn't paying out all that well.

 

Changing the rng for extreme outliers isn't entirely unreasonable.  These aren't special drops with random stats, they're the same items that people are getting all the time.  DE is giving it for free with the understanding that it will take longer for free players to get stuff, the thing is, they don't really get much out of a player getting bad luck and having to grind a boss for tens of hours more than the average player.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Aggh

[Co_Re]

seriously i feel so bad for these people who have done more than a hundred runs to get a part of a warframe and never get it. i can tell you they wont be getting it.

also how are you gunna tell me that the hellfire rate isn't broken? 80+ waves of only hellfire? or how about those who just never get the parts they need to build the frame even after getting the parts?

rng is fine, but the tables need to be adjusted if its gunna piss off people and make them leave the game from the hours of farming for nothing

[Uboros]

It has everything to do with it.  The way that so much worthwhile stuff is tied behind rng on top of rng is why people are complaining about rng.  If people had easier access to void missions (at least the lower tier tower runs) they wouldn't be nearly as mad about this.  The reason why people are getting worked up over running fifty tower runs and not getting a single reaper blade is because that cost them ~$50.  People are mad because the effort/cash they're putting into the system isn't paying out all that well.

 

Changing the rng for extreme outliers isn't entirely unreasonable.  These aren't special drops with random stats, they're the same items that people are getting all the time.  DE is giving it for free with the understanding that it will take longer for free players to get stuff, the thing is, they don't really get much out of a player getting bad luck and having to grind a boss for tens of hours more than the average player.

I already explained what people were buying when they bought void keys so your first reason is invalid. and the topic is, HAVING THE % CHANCE OF AN ITEM TO INCREASE WHEN IT DOES NOT DROP, not rng. That is the only solution he has offered. Along with your 0.

[BlueIstari]

Speaking as a former Phantasy Star Online player (Want a Lavis Cannon? Have fun with that .002% drop chance!), Warframe's RNG feels fairly generous for the most part. There are a few tweaks that could be made to make it more enjoyable and rewarding to players (and thus profitable to DE long-term), but dynamic drop rates just aren't one of them because useable rewards from new content would dry up much more quickly and leave dedicated players without a goal. As well, there's something to be said for the intrinsic satisfaction one experiences after finally finding what you've been searching for after several duplicate drops.

 

A better solution to all the frustration would be to have more CHANCES to get your desired drops. The void key system is inherently flawed, but as DE is unlikely to replace it with a new system, an acceptable fix would be to make keys more common as end-of-mission rewards, and perhaps found off of bosses and (extremely rarely) in containers/lockers.