For Everyone Complaining About The Rng In Warframe...

[TurboMurderHobo]

A skinner's box fails when the stimuli doesn't match a frequency. That's why it's so important to find the balance where it's worthwhile!

[rksk16it]

A skinner's box fails when the stimuli doesn't match a frequency. That's why it's so important to find the balance where it's worthwhile!

 

Especially when the cage isnt actually a prison, but just one option out of many others.

[CaptGentlemen]

I'm so glad someone wrotd this I've been thinking about doing it but I rather just play the game and relax after work(currently at work on the phone). I could not agree more if you have ever played monster hunter, phantasy star online, and other games solely based on farming you would know that this system they have in warframe is extremely generous. I'm sure once everyone has void keys and gets prime gear the complaints will stop as that is where most of the complaints are coming from. If you don't believe me you can read the threads that complain of rng, at the beginning first couple of posts they tend not to mention void right away but given time there later posts will in some way refer to void. I'm glad the devs are wise enough to not change the rng system right off the bat due to complaints brought up out of frustration because they can't just get something that came out in an update that was only released a week ago.

[Aerensiniac]

For starters, I'm not trying to defend what DE is doing here. It's more just a heads up to everyone complaining about the randomness of warframe and suggesting substitutes (such as the void tokens mentioned in the stream which you could trade in for rewards of your choice rather than keeping on doing void runs hoping for whatever blueprint you needed to drop).

If you have a guinea pig in a cage with a button and train it so that whenever it presses the button a piece of food will fall then whenever the guinea pig is hungry it will simply press the button. Because it knows that food will always be there at a button press so it may as well just press it when the need arises.

If you change it so that at every press there is instead a 15% chance to drop a piece of food, the guinea pig will just not stop pressing it. Because sometimes it won't get the food it needs, so it just has to keep on pressing it, over and over; keep on coming back so it doesn't go hungry.

This is essentially what is happening in Warframe. It's a cheap tactic, but certainly nothing new in the videogame industry, especially in the free to play market. Randomizing everything so you keep coming back, because you don't know for sure if you'll get that item on your next run, so you just keep on doing it. It is good for DE because it keeps people playing their games, and also gives them further incentive to buy platinum, because not only does it take longer to grind for items, but you might not ever get the item you are looking for.

Steve said in the stream that he prefers the RNG because it gives casual players a chance at getting something quickly rather than having to grind for hours, and while I'm not saying he is lying it is not the whole story. He also said that people in the company have told him that taking out the randomness would put them in a bad place... this is definitely true. The randomness keeps people buying platinum, and keeps DE in business, so to everyone complaining about it, it sucks, but you are just going to have to get used to it. This is the business model that DE are using, and I can guarantee you that they are not going to change it any time soon.

 

 

Great logic, except you forgot to mention what happens when RNG becomes overkill.

People will simply leave to hell because advancement becomes impossible and results only in frustration.

See Steve says: he prefers the RNG because it gives casual players a chance at getting something quickly rather than having to grind for hours

All of us know that this is the biggest bs he could have said. Literally.

Do me a favor and try to grab a Flow mod. How many hours of grind will that be? Onno, but i know for a fact that searching for it will have nothing to do with the phrase "a chance at getting something quickly". I have gotten my first flow mod after 378 hours (!) of game play. If thats not grind, then i am afraid our definitions of grinding differ.

 

That sentence from steve does not match up with reality on so many levels that it hurts to count. The only thing sure is that trying to get something is everything but "quick".

We could also go deep into math by calculating the chance getting a specific mod from a loot table that is pressed into one single RNG table with over 150 items and further diluted by ability mods dropping 70% of the time.

 

So as a player who has put more than 400 hours of play time into Warframe, let me tell you otherwise: RNG in warframe (as it is currently) serves but one purpose. Killing the game.

Cause if you, Steve or anyone at DE seriously thinks that this will keep around players then you are all delusional.

RNG helps only if its balanced. RNG in warframe however is one of the worst examples of this drop system i have EVER seen in a game, and i have seen quite a few games as 30 year old gamer.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[KindCollusion]

Just going to add in my two cents I don't know if anyone has made my point so if they have feel free to ignore me.

I have no problem with an RNG or lottery system per se, its simple random interval reinforcement, the same principal behind slot machines. It keeps people motivated and keeps people playing, however the issue becomes a lot more complicated when you can circumvent the system. In this case the problem is platinum.

You see when someone goes and wins nothing from a lottery they usually have no complaint. Why? Because almost no one wins the lottery. So everyone who paid to enter into it is usually okay with a less than optimal outcome because everyone had a fair chance. Now here's where the problem comes in: what if one group of people had the privilege of winning whenever they wanted to? This makes the game seem unfair.

Now some of you will argue that anyone can pay however that simply is not true. Think of it this way, time is money. We already spend a lot of time on the game. For some of us that is cost enough. Furthermore, some of us have expenses outside of the game that our money is better saved for. 

This is a conflict almost all free to play games and a few MMOs. Heck it's even a problem in real life, and thats why we have the rich always against the poor or some group of people always fed up with the system. I digress, the problem is Warframe so i'll try to stay on topic. 

I guess my issue is that there are better ways of handling this. Some of the items of the RNG are simply too hard to get, but they are very easy to get for people with platinum. That would be okay, but these items give a HUGE advantage in some cases. I mean come on, if you buy a potato you are doubling your potential power in game but if you wait on the RNG it could be years before you get one. That is the definition of B2W (buy 2 win). It's interesting that they made the win items possible to get for non buyers but let us be honest, almost impossible is for all intents and purposes impossible. Case in point, how many of you can plan on winning the lottery?

So how do we solve this problem? Well games like LoL and a number of MMOs make all the stuff that's paid for cosmetic or they make them a matter of convenience. In LoL there are skins which make your character look different. That game also lets you buy rune sheet pages which are convenient but have no bearing in the middle of a game. Everything else can be bought with real money but it's doing so only speeds you along and pretty much anything you want aside from runepages and skins can be earned in a timely fashion. The only problem with this strategy as it relates to Warframes is that the balance of items would have to change quite significantly.

 

Now another game that I think bears mentioning is Blacklight Retribution. Like LoL they have a variety of cosmetics you can pay for but they also have a number of things you can customize with a fee. The thing is that if you want an item to customize your in game abilities you have to either pay for it or grind to it. There is no randomness, everything is earned. It should also be noted that the ability to customize does not unbalance you. Any advantage you earn comes at the cost of some disadvantage so what your really earning or buying is options. (I'm leaving out elemental ammo because this is a part of the game most people this is unfair, but even it you can get with in game credit.)

Now the above examples are competitive games but lets think of a game with unbalanced Items and little to no competition. The first game that comes to mind for me is Mass Effect 3's multi-player. It is at a different extreme, unlike Warframe it's easier to get the items but EVERYTHING is randomized. So you can never grind to get exactly what you want, all you can do is grind to unpredictably get a pack of something. At the same time you can pay cash to unpredictably get a pack of something. This is often considered fair to the gamers but many still consider it frustrating because it is time consuming and the system makes it very hard to form goals. 

So now that we have looked at models in the broad genre of gaming lets look at a possible solution for Warframe.

Well for starters, all we can customized on a cosmetic level is color. Why not gender, size and shape? These things would be a good way to earn revenue without damaging game-play. 

If Warframe is trying not to be B2W the game-changing items should not be next to impossible to get. For this reason I think Potatoes and items that are a cut above everything else (eg hate, dread, despair)  should be easier to find and instead we should just put more emphasis on the cost to make them in the foundry and the time it takes for them to build. As an alternative we could make them level dependent like the Hek or some mix of the two. 

Here's a novel idea, why not give pay to players the option to pay a platinum to level (1 plat per level, 30 plat to max). Leveling doesn't take forever so this isn't totally game changing. As we have seen with games like Blacklight, most players have no problem with people paying to speed progress in game. 

You see it's all an issue of balance. I really love what the devs have achieved with this game but the reward system is a little extreme when you either have to farm endlessly or open your wallet for the endgame to be fair. 

PS: A trading system that makes our in game credits actually have value could fix all of this. I'm just discussing the system we have going right now. 

PPS: I haven't edited this, sorry for any mistakes. Lol frankly I'm surprised I'm passionate enough about this game to post on the forums. I seldom do so with the games I play. 

[CaptGentlemen]

One persons experience does not justify everyone's experience which is why rng can be seen as quick or fair. I could easily say that I recieved flow in the first couple if days of playing which would show how random the system is. I've been playing for maybe around 140-150 hours can't check right now I'm at work. That is also using the ingame time recorder and not steams which is more accurate as steams is just on how long the game is active. But as I have said before this systems seems to be incredibly more generous than most games that I have played where the core of the game is emphasized on farming. I apologize for any errors and problems with trying to read this post but trying to type on a forum with a phone can be quite difficult at times. It seems more like people tend to complain when they can't get what they want in a matter of days which honestly if it were easier or simpler what is stopping people from quitting then, when they have nothing else to achieve or farm for? Any form of system that can assist in reassuring the player recieving a specific item can easily make the game less challenging due to after time for research goes by you will eventually be able to makeformula in figuring how and when a failsafe occurs. I feel the system they use now although frustrating works for the design of the game in its current state which is why they see no need to change it as it could iinitially cause even more players quit due to boredom after recieving all the content that is available in a short amount of time. At times I get frustrated at the system as well but it

[S5alad]

While I appreciated your effort in explaining Skinner box, I still think the RNG should be tweaked.

Problem with the current form of RNG is - while it's fair, it's not fun. Assuming that item A has normal distribution (bell-shaped curve), there will always be two end of the spectrum. 5% who get item A for sure with every loot run they do, another 5% won't get item A even when they do the same amout of loot run.

DE will lose both 5%. The top 5% will burn through the content at an alarming rate and left for other games, they may come back for the next patch/update but DE still lost the chance to generate income from them. The unlucky 5% will likely quitting the game out of frustration, DE lost profit and generate a bad reputation in the same time.

This is where 'globally' equal RNG creates the problem. Skinner box relies on inconsistent win in order to create behavior. When there is too much win or no win, the mouse stop hitting the button. The current RNG needs a secondary fail-safe system that detect lose streak and generate win when there is enough lose accumulated.

Edit: damn iPhone.

This.

 

I'm so tired of farming for a few components.  I don't think the Reciever/Blade are common.  At a certain point, after you've run so many voids, you should just have things automatically awarded.

[neKroMancer]

Now somehow that guinea pig comes out of that particular cage and can move freely around. There are multiple other cages (games) to choose from, some of which drops food everytime.

 

Now how does that theory works ?

 

If it drops food every time, you'll get bored. Inconsistent winning is the key.

 

Look at how successful casino is. Does it allows you to win every time?

[MEsoJD]

 Rather than grinding or RNG, I'd rather fight an extremely hard boss for rare items.

[rksk16it]

If it drops food every time, you'll get bored. Inconsistent winning is the key.

 

Look at how successful casino is. Does it allows you to win every time?

 

I play Smite (a MOBA) all the time, and there is no "objective" there besides defeating the enemy team. I never get bored. I am not comparing Smite to Warframe, thats comparing apples to oranges. What I am pointing out is that skinner box is an oversimplification of the variety of situations arising in the real world. Suppose the mouse doesnt want food to avoid boredome, it just wants to eat the food and go away do something else ? What then ?

 

Look how successful "salary based jobs" are. Are they boring ? Might be. But just try asking anybody who has a good job to quit his/her job and try casino to earn. You will get funny expressions and remarks, trust me !!

 

 

Great logic, except you forgot to mention what happens when RNG becomes overkill.

People will simply leave to hell because advancement becomes impossible and results only in frustration.

 

Exactly. Atleast people like me. I have temporarily stopped playing Warframe, will come back when they implement a token system for everything, especially mods. Or atleast I can hope they will do it. I like to play Warframe, but I dont want to waste my time.

 

 

See Steve says: he prefers the RNG because it gives casual players a chance at getting something quickly rather than having to grind for hours

All of us know that this is the biggest bs he could have said. Literally.

 

Getting something "QUICKLY" ?!?!? HAHAHAHAH !!!

 

Nope.

[neKroMancer]

I play Smite (a MOBA) all the time, and there is no "objective" there besides defeating the enemy team. I never get bored. I am not comparing Smite to Warframe, thats comparing apples to oranges. What I am pointing out is that skinner box is an oversimplification of the variety of situations arising in the real world. Suppose the mouse doesnt want food to avoid boredome, it just wants to eat the food and go away do something else ?.

Skinner box is the basic principle in shaping behavior through conditioning. Rewards which are tied to our biological need like sleep, sex, and food have a threshold. Once we sleep for 8 hours or eat a few plates of food, we don't want to sleep/eat anymore.

However, there are rewards which isn't tied to our biological need. Pleasure for various condition- winning PvP game, win a slot machine, get an ultrarare item from PvE game, etc. This type of reward has almost no threshold. The fact that you mentioned Smite which is a fantasy, MOBA, PvP game is a good example. You like the sense of pleasure when you conquer the opposing team, that's an operant conditioning which encourage you to play more in order to win more. It's still a Skinner box, just a more subtle level compared to Warframe which is a game based on loot run. If you want to find some games to compare to Warframe then Diablo is a better example.

Token system is still a good idea though. However, it must be mixed with RNG and not used solely as a method of progression in the game. If DE place a multishot mod for 10k token but player can get 1-2 token per mission, I doubt that we will love it much.

[KelliCzek]

Content of U8 is obtainable only if you:

 

1) Investing a lot of money in game.

2) Have a friends who invest money in game.

3) Have a clan with peoples who invest money in game.

4) Have a clan with 10+ hardcore grinders who play 24/7.

5) Have a huge clan of active casual players.

 

In my case i have a clan(7 peoples) of my friends only and most of them casual players who play 2 hour a day max and not spending money more than increase inventory slots or buy catalysts and cosmetics. And i dont wanna be forced to join other clan in opportunity to see full content of U8. With total play time of my clan we will build fully functional dodjo in about year without spending money, this is absurd. Also with that drop rate of keys i'll get frost prime in about 2 months(includ keys of my friends). This could be ok if not the monotonous gameplay and the fact that they will release new content faster than i get full gear from void missions ... It's not a grind it's absurd. Girnd before U8 was nice, i liked it even with fact that i still dont have 2 mods with hundreds hours played. Alert system is not part of the grind and honestly this system suck, for peoples who dont want waste 300 plat on warfrem its almost imposible to get Vauban, player shoud be rewarded for ingame progress and not for refreshing Browser all the day.

Totaly agree with you. I really hate the alert system. Back to Vauban - last weekend there were alerts of allhis bps (systems, chassis, helmet) and some players collected them all, but there is a group which collected only 1 or 2 of his bps - I am in this group (btw I dont wanna spend 300pt!). The alerts with Vauban s bps should be tweaked! OR make another Event, where DEs increase (a lot!) drop rate of his bps (use the same "farming"/reward system like Banshee s bps - btw I don t like this system, with upcoming warframe i expect a boss - so I can "easily" farm a new warframe...) cause NOBODY likes sitting in front of a browser/smartphone and waiting for the right alert! With this really low chance to obtain his bps, this warframe is starting to be Pay2Win.

[Bachanolia]

I wouldn't mind seeing Warframe component BPs in the market (for platinum). I've had systems and chassis BPs for quite some time, but can't get a helmet (Banshee). Or two others of another warframe, but not the third. Why not sell a helmet (chassis, systems) BP for a third of the Warframe cost in the market? Since we apparently can't use the alternative helmet to craft the original Warframe, I think this would be a good solution for many like me and also make DE a few extra bucks perhaps.

[KelliCzek]

I wouldn't mind seeing Warframe component BPs in the market (for platinum). I've had systems and chassis BPs for quite some time, but can't get a helmet (Banshee). Or two others of another warframe, but not the third. Why not sell a helmet (chassis, systems) BP for a third of the Warframe cost in the market? Since we apparently can't use the alternative helmet to craft the original Warframe, I think this would be a good solution for many like me and also make DE a few extra bucks perhaps.

Trading / Black Market (trade player/player) is the the solution (btw I can build 4x Banshee...if there were trading, I give you one, but I dont have the option...

[Story4]

While I appreciated your effort in explaining Skinner box, I still think the RNG should be tweaked.

Problem with the current form of RNG is - while it's fair, it's not fun. Assuming that item A has normal distribution (bell-shaped curve), there will always be two end of the spectrum. 5% who get item A for sure with every loot run they do, another 5% won't get item A even when they do the same amout of loot run.

DE will lose both 5%. The top 5% will burn through the content at an alarming rate and left for other games, they may come back for the next patch/update but DE still lost the chance to generate income from them. The unlucky 5% will likely quitting the game out of frustration, DE lost profit and generate a bad reputation in the same time.

This is where 'globally' equal RNG creates the problem. Skinner box relies on inconsistent win in order to create behavior. When there is too much win or no win, the mouse stop hitting the button. The current RNG needs a secondary fail-safe system that detect lose streak and generate win when there is enough lose accumulated.

Edit: damn iPhone.

 

So this is a good idea, but instead of having a bell-curve wouldn't a steady progression system (e.g. instead of getting a warframe at random in 5 or 75 runs, you get it at a steady rate in 40 runs) be a line, where everyone had the same progression and everyone is happy? Those who don't want to grind can pay and those who have time can get it eventually.

No one burns through content, no one doesn't get any.

[Bachanolia]

Trading / Black Market (trade player/player) is the the solution (btw I can build 4x Banshee...if there were trading, I give you one, but I dont have the option...

I Iike the idea of trading, especially intraclan trading. I just don't want to see what happens with most mmos as far as exploits, hackers, and spammers in the trade system. 

As a lot of people have pointed out here, I think complete RNG has its limits and more than its share of frustrations and will end up turning many people away eventually. It's fun at first, but gets old quicker than I'd expect. I like some of the ideas presented in this thread (especially some kind of behind the scenes token system). That made me wonder, too, how I am kind of surprised there is no achievement system. Maybe rewards could be tied to that somehow. Number of missions completed, number of Grineer kills (etc.), unlocking new planetary bodies, and all on down the line. Maybe rewards, in this way, can be a "choose 1 from 3" or something. Or maybe this can be how the assassination mission reward works. If DE doesn't want someone killing a boss three times in a row to gain the parts for one frame, just space out where the parts are.

Just some thoughts.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

The problem is, they take the RNG to an extreme. There haven't been any orokin reactors or catalysts in a while, the alert system is broken and bloated as hell at this point so it's not giving free players that much more of a chance than just telling them to buy plat. Log in rewards are janky as hell (oh what, fifth gorgon BP in a row? Awesome) and this game relies way too much on taking absolute control out of the player's hands resulting in most people just sitting around with their thumbs up their asses waiting for the RNG to plop things in their laps, research or construction to finish or praying for the game to deign them with a drop.

 

Know what'd be nice? If I could actually work towards something instead of just waiting for the RNG to give it to me.

[krisp]

OP is doing a bad job at describing a skinner box;

 

Rat presses a button

Gets food

Next time it presses the button twice

Gets food

Three times

Food

4 times

food

and so on

 

 

Until the rat spends literally 100% of it's time doing nothing but pressing a button in order to survive.

 

When applied to video games, the game must draw you into doing the same thing over and over and over again just for the chance to get the next step up before you get ready to push a button some more.

 

Think about most MMOs;

Early game, lots of good gear, lots of levels, lots of learning things and visiting new places

Then it slows down

Until the last few levels take days, and the last few bits of gear can take weeks of doing the same things over and over again.

Actually, a skinner box uses RNG and is used to explain the behaviour of people when subjected to things like gambling. MMOs are very weak examples of skinner boxes, but it's definitely not about content slowing down - it's about the random loot that gets progressively better as you kill harder mobs. 

 

But it's hardly an example in Warframe. Skinner-box is a term used in a lot more serious cases of videogame addiction and gambling and you're not doing it any service by bringing it to this game. Warframe doesn't have a 1 in 1000 drop system, and the reliance on RNG is purely for weapon diversity and not outright power. Furthermore, it serves less to keep someone playing the game to fuel a subscription and more as an incentive to cave in and buy the cheapo alternatives.

 

But this reply is pretty old and I'm just tired and need to sleep atm, so don't take this too seriously.

[neKroMancer]

So this is a good idea, but instead of having a bell-curve wouldn't a steady progression system (e.g. instead of getting a warframe at random in 5 or 75 runs, you get it at a steady rate in 40 runs) be a line, where everyone had the same progression and everyone is happy? Those who don't want to grind can pay and those who have time can get it eventually.

No one burns through content, no one doesn't get any.

Would you spend RL money if you know for sure that you're going to get what you want after fixed amount of run?

No, you won't. It's illogical. If I can speedrun a boss which take 10 minutes per run, I'll get all BP within 400 minute, roughly 8 hours when take loading time into account. That's 8 hours for a 20-25 USD purchase. I don't think anyone is going to buy that particular Warframe from the cashshop.

Steady progression eliminates incentive to purchase. It'll likely result in an economic overhaul which is a lot more complex problem.