Void Drop Rates + Void Keys Drop Rates + Void Key Pack Drop Rates+ Defense Reward Estimation

[Notso]

P.S. Math is fun :o

 

Damn straight son

[Excitonex]

Maybe Void Tier1 runs should also have a reward chance to get a Void Tier2 key. And Void Tier2 should have a reward chance for a Void Tier3 key. This way ftp players who only ever get t1 keys have a chance to go to t2. And players who obtained all rewards from t1 won't feel like their stock pile of t1 is useless.

This would be an interesting solution to lower tower keys feeling so useless.

 

Bit of mathy fun.

 

As a free player if you want a forma.

 

(not counting alerts and login rewards)

 

at a 12% chance for T2 orokin it takes about ~9-10 keys, lets say 10 to make it easy

 

And the chance to get a T2 key seems to be 5% on a tier 2 defense.( i cant verify this ive never gotten a tier 2 key and ive ran across tier 2 defense quite alot)

 

So it will take 20 wave 5 tier 2 runs to get 1 key

 

so 200 wave 5 tier 2 runs will get you 1 forma.(if your lucky)

 

That's about a 20 hour investment if your fast(not counting the actual void runs). 25-30 is probably more realistic

 

For a casual player this is about a 3-4 week time span for 1 forma lol.

 

 

DE? did you really want us to grind 20 hours straight to get 1 forma?

If you're a solo player I can see how this would suck. I think the majority of people have at least 1 or 2 friends they play with though. Which should mean that you get that forma in 6.5-10 hours. Someone who has 5-6 friends would get that forma even faster.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Excitonex

[cknives]

This would be an interesting solution

 

If you're a solo player I can see how this would suck. I think the majority of people have at least 1 or 2 friends they play with though. Which should mean that you get that forma in 6.5-10 hours. Someone who has 5-6 friends would get that forma even faster.

That is false. Unless your some one special and all your friends only like you :)

 

Now of course if your some awesome celebrity in your clan and every one loves you and you have 100 friends farming T2 void keys just for you, cause they love you, then you don't need math.

 

The most you could reduce this by is 3

 

Because lets say you run defense with your friends if you have more than 3 friends the others aren't running defense with you so they have no reason to let you use their key. So lets say you made a deal with your 3 friends that if you guys get a tier 2 drop u will all use each others keys.

 

So after 20 runs you have 4 keys after 40 runs you have 8 keys(good chance of a forma) and finally after 60 runs with the same 3 friends you have a really good chance to get 1 forma.

 

That is still 6 hours of straight grinding with 3 other people you trust (once again it will most likely take longer and its not counting void runs)

 

While 6 hours is more reasonable. Farming the same S#&$ty low level defense to wave 5 and starting over is 0 fun even with 3 friends.

 

Imagine you just worked all day at your job and you come home to have some fun playing warframe for 2 hours. You invite your 3 friends who are always ready and waiting for you to come home(sarcasm). Then you go and farm wave 5 for the 2 hours and repeat that for 3 days in a row till you have 1 forma. Then you only need to repeat that like 10 - 20 times to make a few clan weapons and polarize a few frames and weapons.

[Kiteless]

Arguing with each other over datamined content that has already had to be corrected seems troublesome. The issue here is two fold:

1) Reversed engineered data is not perfect.

2) The RNG system as a whole is actively being changed.

So, bearing in mind Steve has addressed the issue of RNG as a whole (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/), and that our current system is largely inspired from games like Diablo (and others), what changes are you looking for? What would you like to see?

Thanks to those who referred to the concept of "rare" items as a whole and how that plays into drop rate systems in other games. Definitegj brings up a good point on "use it an it's gone" in regards to keys and how that could affect arguments.

 

There's a difference between making equipment rare and difficult to obtain, and locking off content between absurdly low drop odds and overpriced pay walls.

 

When your game is already starved for content as it is, and you put your new content behind a paywall like this (because considering the drop rates for the keys, that's exactly what it is), you are sending a very clear message to your player base.

 

Now, I'd prefer to think that DE doesn't think that we're a bunch of stupid chumps, and more along the lines of a poor error in judgement as a whole. Personally, what I would suggest:

 

-Rework the void so that it is exclusively high level content (no one cares about T1 or T2 anyway), and then make it freely accessible for high level players. There have been many good suggestions for unlocking void content, so use some of those. The most important thing is that it be reasonably attainable.

Clearing the star map would probably appeal most to more casual oriented players, since it keeps a steady flow of available content.

Using mastery could be a decent system that could also encourage monetization on the side (slots, weapons, frames, etc.), but I'd be careful with relying on it too much. Rank 9 takes a prohibitively long time to get too, for example (although you could possibly save that for later high level content down the road)

 

-Once Dojos have been brought to a serviceable level, stop all development on them until there is more actual content. One of the biggest missteps that I felt this game made during its development was devoting resources and personnel to a trivial pet project like the dojo at this point in development when there is barely any actual content in the game itself. I've said it in other threads, but no one buys a game for the guild halls. It's a bonus at best (think of it like this: who actually gave a S#&$ about Playstation Home?). And you can work on bonuses once the core game is actually there.

 

-Never put content behind a paywall again. This is what keeps people coming back to your game. This is what stops us from only logging in once every few days to grab an alert and then log out, and ultimately stop playing in general. There's a lot you can get us to pay for, but when you start locking off part of actual gameplay, be it through absurd tedium required to get it, overpriced and under performing paywalls, or a combination of both, you end up losing the trust of your customer base, and soon your customer base itself. There are a lot of ways to encourage monetization, this is not one of them.

[dMx_COSTANZA]

Just someone who miss the moa event didnt stand a chance to get the frost prime bp as a reward..

And now mostly playing all day long trying to get the main bp at void..

But.. that bp is insanely RARE now!!! =..=''

 

hope can get that prime bp and the receiver for latron too.. that really killing me 

[cknives]

DEs response to this will be:

 

We have learned from this and we wont do it again.

 

2 weeks later: NEW orokin UBER void. Uber void keys drop in regular void missions T2 and up at 1% chance. Or you could buy em for 10$ a pack.

Edited June 2, 2013 by cknives

[Notso]

There's a difference between making equipment rare and difficult to obtain, and locking off content between absurdly low drop odds and overpriced pay walls.

 

When your game is already starved for content as it is, and you put your new content behind a paywall like this (because considering the drop rates for the keys, that's exactly what it is), you are sending a very clear message to your player base.

 

Now, I'd prefer to think that DE doesn't think that we're a bunch of stupid chumps, and more along the lines of a poor error in judgement as a whole. Personally, what I would suggest:

 

-Rework the void so that it is exclusively high level content (no one cares about T1 or T2 anyway), and then make it freely accessible for high level players. There have been many good suggestions for unlocking void content, so use some of those. The most important thing is that it be reasonably attainable.

Clearing the star map would probably appeal most to more casual oriented players, since it keeps a steady flow of available content.

Using mastery could be a decent system that could also encourage monetization on the side (slots, weapons, frames, etc.), but I'd be careful with relying on it too much. Rank 9 takes a prohibitively long time to get too, for example (although you could possibly save that for later high level content down the road)

 

-Once Dojos have been brought to a serviceable level, stop all development on them until there is more actual content. One of the biggest missteps that I felt this game made during its development was devoting resources and personnel to a trivial pet project like the dojo at this point in development when there is barely any actual content in the game itself. I've said it in other threads, but no one buys a game for the guild halls. It's a bonus at best (think of it like this: who actually gave a S#&$ about Playstation Home?). And you can work on bonuses once the core game is actually there.

 

-Never put content behind a paywall again. This is what keeps people coming back to your game. This is what stops us from only logging in once every few days to grab an alert and then log out, and ultimately stop playing in general. There's a lot you can get us to pay for, but when you start locking off part of actual gameplay, be it through absurd tedium required to get it, overpriced and under performing paywalls, or a combination of both, you end up losing the trust of your customer base, and soon your customer base itself. There are a lot of ways to encourage monetization, this is not one of them.

 

Very well said sir. My concurrence is yours to do with what you will

[Vabla]

There's a difference between making equipment rare and difficult to obtain, and locking off content between absurdly low drop odds and overpriced pay walls.

 

When your game is already starved for content as it is, and you put your new content behind a paywall like this (because considering the drop rates for the keys, that's exactly what it is), you are sending a very clear message to your player base.

 

Now, I'd prefer to think that DE doesn't think that we're a bunch of stupid chumps, and more along the lines of a poor error in judgement as a whole. Personally, what I would suggest:

 

-Rework the void so that it is exclusively high level content (no one cares about T1 or T2 anyway), and then make it freely accessible for high level players. There have been many good suggestions for unlocking void content, so use some of those. The most important thing is that it be reasonably attainable.

Clearing the star map would probably appeal most to more casual oriented players, since it keeps a steady flow of available content.

Using mastery could be a decent system that could also encourage monetization on the side (slots, weapons, frames, etc.), but I'd be careful with relying on it too much. Rank 9 takes a prohibitively long time to get too, for example (although you could possibly save that for later high level content down the road)

 

-Once Dojos have been brought to a serviceable level, stop all development on them until there is more actual content. One of the biggest missteps that I felt this game made during its development was devoting resources and personnel to a trivial pet project like the dojo at this point in development when there is barely any actual content in the game itself. I've said it in other threads, but no one buys a game for the guild halls. It's a bonus at best (think of it like this: who actually gave a S#&$ about Playstation Home?). And you can work on bonuses once the core game is actually there.

 

-Never put content behind a paywall again. This is what keeps people coming back to your game. This is what stops us from only logging in once every few days to grab an alert and then log out, and ultimately stop playing in general. There's a lot you can get us to pay for, but when you start locking off part of actual gameplay, be it through absurd tedium required to get it, overpriced and under performing paywalls, or a combination of both, you end up losing the trust of your customer base, and soon your customer base itself. There are a lot of ways to encourage monetization, this is not one of them.

I applaud your ability to express these same thoughts as mine in a far more fleshed out manner than I'm capable of.

 

Since I can't upvote again, have a +1 here.

[HellishWind]

its not F2P  its pay To win its been stated before and it will forever be   if u dont like it just quit the game 

 

if not just buy grand master pack and all your troubles will go away since this game is pay to win too its core 

 

 

they already said there not gonna fix the plat prices so 

whats the point in bringing this up everytime ?  

[Asla]

There's a difference between making equipment rare and difficult to obtain, and locking off content between absurdly low drop odds and overpriced pay walls.

 

When your game is already starved for content as it is, and you put your new content behind a paywall like this (because considering the drop rates for the keys, that's exactly what it is), you are sending a very clear message to your player base.

 

Now, I'd prefer to think that DE doesn't think that we're a bunch of stupid chumps, and more along the lines of a poor error in judgement as a whole. Personally, what I would suggest:

 

-Rework the void so that it is exclusively high level content (no one cares about T1 or T2 anyway), and then make it freely accessible for high level players. There have been many good suggestions for unlocking void content, so use some of those. The most important thing is that it be reasonably attainable.

Clearing the star map would probably appeal most to more casual oriented players, since it keeps a steady flow of available content.

Using mastery could be a decent system that could also encourage monetization on the side (slots, weapons, frames, etc.), but I'd be careful with relying on it too much. Rank 9 takes a prohibitively long time to get too, for example (although you could possibly save that for later high level content down the road)

 

-Once Dojos have been brought to a serviceable level, stop all development on them until there is more actual content. One of the biggest missteps that I felt this game made during its development was devoting resources and personnel to a trivial pet project like the dojo at this point in development when there is barely any actual content in the game itself. I've said it in other threads, but no one buys a game for the guild halls. It's a bonus at best (think of it like this: who actually gave a S#&$ about Playstation Home?). And you can work on bonuses once the core game is actually there.

 

-Never put content behind a paywall again. This is what keeps people coming back to your game. This is what stops us from only logging in once every few days to grab an alert and then log out, and ultimately stop playing in general. There's a lot you can get us to pay for, but when you start locking off part of actual gameplay, be it through absurd tedium required to get it, overpriced and under performing paywalls, or a combination of both, you end up losing the trust of your customer base, and soon your customer base itself. There are a lot of ways to encourage monetization, this is not one of them.

Wel said sir! Really constructive comment! I approve this!

 

its not F2P  its pay To win its been stated before and it will forever be   if u dont like it just quit the game 

 

if not just buy grand master pack and all your troubles will go away since this game is pay to win too its core 

 

 

they already said there not gonna fix the plat prices so 

whats the point in bringing this up everytime ?  

What's the point of bringing your non-constructive answer?

What's the point of not being able to play a f2p freely?

What's the point of trying to make this game better?

What's the point of spending 250 bucks on a f2p (even some workers can't afford that)?

 

Too many questions bro'

 

Also the core was never design as p2p. The only things you could get from plat "only" at the beginning was :

-Warframe slot (convenience option to not have to delete your current frame to make an other)

-Weapons slot (convenience option to not have to delete your current weapon to make an other)

-Colors (cosmetic option)

And it was fine.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Asla

[cknives]

its not F2P  its pay To win its been stated before and it will forever be   if u dont like it just quit the game 

 

if not just buy grand master pack and all your troubles will go away since this game is pay to win too its core 

 

 

they already said there not gonna fix the plat prices so 

whats the point in bringing this up everytime ?  

 

That just means the game will die. We at least have to try n convince DE to change before that happens :P

[winterau]

Arguing with each other over datamined content that has already had to be corrected seems troublesome. The issue here is two fold:

1) Reversed engineered data is not perfect.

2) The RNG system as a whole is actively being changed.

So, bearing in mind Steve has addressed the issue of RNG as a whole (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/), and that our current system is largely inspired from games like Diablo (and others), what changes are you looking for? What would you like to see?

Thanks to those who referred to the concept of "rare" items as a whole and how that plays into drop rate systems in other games. Definitegj brings up a good point on "use it an it's gone" in regards to keys and how that could affect arguments.

 

1) Reverse engineered data of any data that is available in the client has been perfect to date. It has been perfect up until the point that DE change the data. Then it can be reverse engineered again and is still perfect.

2) You need to do more than say "The RNG system as a whole is actively being changed".

 

To be honest, when I look at these drop rates, I am absolutely disgusted at DE. If you are going to build a skinner box (and really that is what Warframe is) you should at least make things obtainable in the box.

 

Instead you have drop rates of less than 1% on items that require you to either spend money to get that less than 1% chance at the item or farm for days to get the chance.

 

In what universe do you feel that it is acceptable that the Latron Prime is worth $200? That is what your drop rates had it valued at initially. Sure you changed them marginally (1 guaranteed T3 key for your $5 and yet you still keep the freaking blueprints in T3 rewards at the same chance as the rare item that you supposedly corrected), and then you gave people $3 back for every key pack they purchased.

 

These drop rates indicate that you are not running a system based on rarity with scaling rewards for scaling difficulty, you are simply scamming your customers.

 

What I would suggest you do from here is this:

 

1. Provide actual scaling rewards based on difficulty.

If you want to have 3 tiers of rewards with 3 sets of rarity (common, uncommon, rare) then anything that is common in T1 does not show up anywhere else. Uncommon rewards in T1 become Common in T2, Rare become Uncommon etc

 

2. Provide Rewards Based on Mission and Enemy

You need to provide people with a way to aim to get the thing they want rather than having a single pool of rewards.

 

3. You need to be Transparent

This is the big one. You need to be completely transparent to your customers because to be frank, you have been bending them over the table for a while now. No more absolute BS about "its the RNG", you need to tell players what the drop rates are for all the rewards and how they are changed based on difficulty, mission and enemy. If you choose to not make a reward available for pickup during gameplay (like the new mods) then you need to be upfront and clear with players about how they can get them and what their chances are. If you don't do this, you lose all trust of your players and will then lose those players.

[Excitonex]

1) Reverse engineered data of any data that is available in the client has been perfect to date. It has been perfect up until the point that DE change the data. Then it can be reverse engineered again and is still perfect.

2) You need to do more than say "The RNG system as a whole is actively being changed".

 

To be honest, when I look at these drop rates, I am absolutely disgusted at DE. If you are going to build a skinner box (and really that is what Warframe is) you should at least make things obtainable in the box.

 

Instead you have drop rates of less than 1% on items that require you to either spend money to get that less than 1% chance at the item or farm for days to get the chance.

 

In what universe do you feel that it is acceptable that the Latron Prime is worth $200? That is what your drop rates had it valued at initially. Sure you changed them marginally (1 guaranteed T3 key for your $5 and yet you still keep the freaking blueprints in T3 rewards at the same chance as the rare item that you supposedly corrected), and then you gave people $3 back for every key pack they purchased.

 

These drop rates indicate that you are not running a system based on rarity with scaling rewards for scaling difficulty, you are simply scamming your customers.

 

What I would suggest you do from here is this:

 

1. Provide actual scaling rewards based on difficulty.

If you want to have 3 tiers of rewards with 3 sets of rarity (common, uncommon, rare) then anything that is common in T1 does not show up anywhere else. Uncommon rewards in T1 become Common in T2, Rare become Uncommon etc

 

2. Provide Rewards Based on Mission and Enemy

You need to provide people with a way to aim to get the thing they want rather than having a single pool of rewards.

 

3. You need to be Transparent

This is the big one. You need to be completely transparent to your customers because to be frank, you have been bending them over the table for a while now. No more absolute BS about "its the RNG", you need to tell players what the drop rates are for all the rewards and how they are changed based on difficulty, mission and enemy. If you choose to not make a reward available for pickup during gameplay (like the new mods) then you need to be upfront and clear with players about how they can get them and what their chances are. If you don't do this, you lose all trust of your players and will then lose those players.

The data that was posted here already had to be corrected. So yes, it has been proven imperfect. Either way the current key drop rates and void drop rates are only bad when you look at them from the perspective of a solo player. If you have even 1 friend the time to get all of the void items is cut in half.

 

I do agree with your point on enemies dropping specific mods and having no overlap for the rarest mods. I also agree with scaling rewards, though I believe this is something DE has already said is in the works.

 

About transparency, show me one large company that has released drop rates and RNG data and you might be able to make a case for DE to do it. This has never happened to my knowledge because it is considered a trade-secret, the kind of thing you sign an NDA for.

[winterau]

The data that was posted here already had to be corrected. So yes, it has been proven imperfect. Either way the current key drop rates and void drop rates are only bad when you look at them from the perspective of a solo player. If you have even 1 friend the time to get all of the void items is cut in half.

 

I do agree with your point on enemies dropping specific mods and having no overlap for the rarest mods. I also agree with scaling rewards, though I believe this is something DE has already said is in the works.

 

About transparency, show me one large company that has released drop rates and RNG data and you might be able to make a case for DE to do it. This has never happened to my knowledge because it is considered a trade-secret, the kind of thing you sign an NDA for.

 

You think that 0.15% chance at a T3 key is not bad? 0.15% chance of a T3 key followed by a 12.65% chance at Latron Prime Receiver? Having 3 friends farming with you doesn't make that much better. 

 

De have said numerous things about the game, such as it not being only about grinding. However what they say and what they do would appear to be completely different things.

 

Regarding transparency of drop rates, Valve with TF2. There is no intellectual property in how you assign drop rates to items. It is just basic maths. Sure DE don't have to be transparent with the players, but I am telling you right now that it would help to overcome the trust issues that have developed with U8 such as drop rates of receiver/blade, drop rates of keys, drop rates of new mods, quality of researched weapons. DE claim to want to be a different type of developer, but their actions indicate that they are far more like EA than they are like Valve.

[Asla]

The data that was posted here already had to be corrected. So yes, it has been proven imperfect.

No it's not. Read the reddit post.

The "miner" assume he made a mistake (that i made too) when copy/pasting files. 

The first time, he copy/paste the t2  defense mission data for t3. He said it and edit his post with the right number for t3. I did the same on this post.

Numbers have not changed in any way.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Asla

[Meltina]

0.15%= ~1 in 666 chance very funny DE.

[nanogenesis]

DEs response to this will be:

 

We have learned from this and we wont do it again.

 

2 weeks later: NEW orokin UBER void. Uber void keys drop in regular void missions T2 and up at 1% chance. Or you could buy em for 10$ a pack.

 

Pretty much  this.

What annoys me is DE thinks that 'we made this is 6 weeks, so they should not burn it in 3hrs'.

Well guess what, AAA single player games take 1~6years to develop, and one can easily burn them in 1day. But you replay some of those, because multiple choices, good story, great scenery, and what not. However DE has nothing like that, only grind.

Incase you like the game you'll keep coming back for your mutlishot/etc because its so rare and doesn't want to drop.

 

I actually feel terrible when I see sundering strike drop so rarely.

[winterau]

Pretty much  this.

What annoys me is DE thinks that 'we made this is 6 weeks, so they should not burn it in 3hrs'.

Well guess what, AAA single player games take 1~6years to develop, and one can easily burn them in 1day. But you replay some of those, because multiple choices, good story, great scenery, and what not. However DE has nothing like that, only grind.

Incase you like the game you'll keep coming back for your mutlishot/etc because its so rare and doesn't want to drop.

 

I actually feel terrible when I see sundering strike drop so rarely.

 

I agree with this completely. 

 

I don't stop playing when I get the loot (heck, I am EXTREMELY lucky and got all the Void loot from 27 runs), I don't even stop playing when I level to 30, I play because I like being a space ninja with friends.

 

However when I see how much DE are trying to screw me (and my friends) it just annoys me and makes me want to stop playing.

[Excitonex]

I agree with this completely. 

 

I don't stop playing when I get the loot (heck, I am EXTREMELY lucky and got all the Void loot from 27 runs), I don't even stop playing when I level to 30, I play because I like being a space ninja with friends.

 

However when I see how much DE are trying to screw me (and my friends) it just annoys me and makes me want to stop playing.

I'm not sure where your "screwing" comes in. You say you have fun just playing the game with no goal to work towards whatsoever and then you proceed to say you'll stop playing when they give you something that you might one day achieve. How does this logic?

[Excitonex]

Pretty much  this.

What annoys me is DE thinks that 'we made this is 6 weeks, so they should not burn it in 3hrs'.

Well guess what, AAA single player games take 1~6years to develop, and one can easily burn them in 1day. But you replay some of those, because multiple choices, good story, great scenery, and what not. However DE has nothing like that, only grind.

Incase you like the game you'll keep coming back for your mutlishot/etc because its so rare and doesn't want to drop.

 

I actually feel terrible when I see sundering strike drop so rarely.

Except the AAA company screwed you into paying $60 for a game you can beat in one day, congratulations.

[Kiteless]

Time=/=worth

 

There have been games I've beaten in one or two days that felt well worth the price of admission.

[iBrigandi]

ive been saying this for a while. slots are rigged. Now imagine the alert percentages.

We been trolled by DE. Well played

Edited June 3, 2013 by iBrigandi

[cknives]

Yeah it sure feels that way. I guess ill give DE 1 last chance with the endless defense fix(steve said its coming very soon). If its garbage(like the proposed rare fusion core high wave rewards) then im out of here.

[Excitonex]

Time=/=worth

 

There have been games I've beaten in one or two days that felt well worth the price of admission.

And yet Warframe is here for a free 20+ hours of entertainment just on your first frame and weapons. How can you demand they produce the content of a $60 game and hand it out for free?

[gamefreak9149]

I hate you frost prime head bp.