Retaking Origin - A Suggestion For A Perpetual Endgame

[DiabolusUrsus]

Had yet another thought.

(amazing how that works eh? ^_^)

Instead of killing the system boss to open up for the sub sector, turn it the other way around and make what is now the system boss mission in to the key mission that opens the sector.

Once in the sector you then have to complete some location / lore / boss relevant missions, some being optional, others mandatory, the sectors would be open for only a "small" window of time, somewhat akin to the current Alert system, except they would be open for hours instead of minutes, again depending on how many optional and/or mandatory missions there are to complete before you can access the boss fight.

 

 

As interesting as having the boss be a "preliminary" encounter to access a system, I personally think that would be taking things a bit too far. At least, as far as the game goes in its current condition. Allow me to suggest that the bosses still be present at the far end of the sub-sectors, something the players must work towards a confrontation with, but to spice things up a bit throw in a few mini-bosses in the forms of officers/infested aberrations, etc. If DE goes the route of fleshing out their boss encounters, these mini-bosses could have simpler gimmicks concerning how they need to be approached, with the sector bosses being decked out multi-stage encounters.

I'm all for extending the duration of alerts in conjunction with steepening the consequences of failure or non-participation, but I can't think of any reason why they should be altered from their current format of display. There's no need for additional subsystems that can only be temporarily accessed, that's essentially what the Alert system already is. What's more is that being tied so closely to territory that has been opened up attaches a large degree of importance to actually opening up new systems, while at the same time keeping earlier systems relevant.

As for your "planetary surface" ideas... that would be great, aside from the fact that Pluto and moons like Europa aside, only four planets in our solar system actually have surfaces. So while I'm still behind the idea of getting more involved with planets, that would be a more... niche addition in that it should probably be applied mostly to Earth and Mars. So once again, allow me to make an altered suggestion in that selecting a planetary system brings up a magnified view of the planet, with a visualization of the space stations, ships, etc. relatively nearby.

[Dieson]

Excellent suggestions all, and my own fault for not making it clear that I meant exactly what you wrote here:

 

As interesting as having the boss be a "preliminary" encounter to access a system, I personally think that would be taking things a bit too far. At least, as far as the game goes in its current condition. Allow me to suggest that the bosses still be present at the far end of the sub-sectors, something the players must work towards a confrontation with, but to spice things up a bit throw in a few mini-bosses in the forms of officers/infested aberrations, etc. If DE goes the route of fleshing out their boss encounters, these mini-bosses could have simpler gimmicks concerning how they need to be approached, with the sector bosses being decked out multi-stage encounters.

 

 when I suggested the current boss missions be the key missions for opening the sub sectors.

 

As for your suggestion concerning the planetary surface idea, yes indeed limit that specific part to the planets that have actual surface areas, kinda sort of what i wrote here.. sort of ^_^ : 

 

inspired by what has been said so far in this thread and specifically by DiabolusUrsus...

I was thinking of something i'm calling sub sector mission hubs, the way I initially see them would be something similar to the "systems" as we have them now but instead of encompassing an entire planet/moon it would be a specific area on a planet surface / Asteroid facility / Large scale carrier sized millitary craft or civilian mass transport vessels.

Such sub sectors would be opened up for a limited time through maybe Alerts! or perhaps as a follow up to having beaten a system boss, offering missions specific to whatever enviroment is present.

Planet Surface could be any of the currently available missions, maybe even combining some mission types.

Asteroid facilities could focus more on Raid, Sabotage, Assassination, Spying

Ship based missions could be Rescue, Assassination, Capture and Extermination.

Also instead of having the solar system as our mission selection map we would have a zoomed in detailed view of the planetary surface / Asteroid facility / Ship model with appropriate location placed mission select icons.

 

The way I see it, it would be akin to when using the clan key and you see the clan tower.

 

Also having the sub sectors be like an alert instead of additional subsystems makes sense, leaving the map less cluttered.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Dieson

[Phaenur]

Dieson, there's a very interesting thread that just popped up here that could probably use your idea as well.  I have feedback coming too, don't worry.  Plus, I already dropped your name and gave a general overview of your ideas there but I figure you'd like to see it for yourself.

 

Now, on to the actual idea.  I like the sound of it even though I'm still trying to figure out the best place for it to be used.  I'm actually picturing it being set up around each boss as you board the flagship/infiltrate the HQ and work your way through several layers of defenses before arriving at the target.  A lot of that is because I desperately want to see the Bond-movie-esque scene of four Warframes climbing up Mount Everest (or an Outpost tileset reimagining of it, at least) to get at the corrupt politician Vay Hek, or for Golem's "derelict Orokin ship" to actually be a derelict Orokin ship.  Perhaps the way to implement this would be to turn the boss runs into this sort of multi-stage approach during the reinforcements phase after we've plundered a captured sector, or maybe just have it as an option (possibly with a key; see notionphil's thread above for yet another way this could work) at all times that would have a much, much greater impact in exchange for an endurance run.  Kriff, if they could make it work boss missions might actually become the new Endless Defense in terms of testing player endurance and willpower over a long series of challenges - only with more variety and less level-100 Ancient Disruptors.

 

Great idea.  Let's keep 'em coming.

[notionphil]

This is a parsimonius idea. It simply has to be in the game. It's easily implementable and gives so much additional purpose and dynamism to Warframe. I also like the idea of a special missionsopening up for each system once the bar is fully in your favor.

 

I also agree with your post in my thread that this suggestion would co-exist happily with my concept of Cells: unlockable, plot driven sequences of missions for a sing squad of Tenno, that only reward when playing appropriate level gear. And have (kinda) perma-death :)

 

I think the two solutions work well in part because they extensively utilize the exising content and framework, only repurposing it to give players new goals. You took on the mission/system structure,  I went after the equipment/level system.

 

Everyone interested in the future of Warframe needs to read both of these posts. Both systems are needed.

 

Badass idea. I truly hope to see it implemented.

Edited June 12, 2013 by notionphil

[notionphil]

The way I see it, it would be akin to when using the clan key and you see the clan tower.

 

Also having the sub sectors be like an alert instead of additional subsystems makes sense, leaving the map less cluttered.

 

The sub sector alert idea is awesome....I wish this were in game right now.

[Relkin]

/signed

[W4RM4CHIN3]

+1

[Dieson]

Just read the Cells thread, thanks for pointing it out to me Phaenur I would likely have missed it had you not mentioned it :)

 

I'm loving how it combines the possibility of a true challenge in a story driven fashion with quite possibly endless complexity, flexebility and ability for game progression far beyond the current system.

 

Combine that with the procedurally generated maps and levels would mean that although you will always know what you're up against once you managed to complete a cell, you can never be sure where the encounter happens in the level during the next run.

 

Example: First run through, it's a Grineer galleon tileset, will always be that for that particular cell, and the final battle would for instance always be in the hangar area, but leading up to that point you might have to fight through some mini bosses and their squad / command group, those mini bosses will also always be there, but potentially never in the same area, first run through you run in to them on a catwalk, a very lethal occurence becaue there would be a lot of firepower aimed at your group, it would also be over fast because there's no real room to maneuver properly. 

 

Second run through, still Grineer Galleon tileset ofc, boss also located in the hangar, but this time instead of a catwalk the miniboss encount happens in an multi story(levels) open area with plenty of room for both sides to maneuver and find cover, essentially making it an altogether different fight compared to the last run.

 

Gods I want this so bad!

[Extinction_Engine]

Bump for great justice.

[notionphil]

Just read the Cells thread, thanks for pointing it out to me Phaenur I would likely have missed it had you not mentioned it :)

 

I'm loving how it combines the possibility of a true challenge in a story driven fashion with quite possibly endless complexity, flexebility and ability for game progression far beyond the current system.

 

...

 

Gods I want this so bad!

 

The two concepts, Phaenur's System Conflict and the Cell mission arcs work really well together. Would also be cool if certain Cell rewards could even contribute to the System Conflict bars. Or certain System Conflict rewards were Cell Dossier BP's about that system's backstory :D

[Dieson]

Just a stray thought.

 

As one of the places Cells could take place, I would kill to see a Warframe version of WH40Ks space hulks *sqeeee* can't call em space hulks ofc, so we'd have to call em derelicts or ghost ships.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Just a stray thought.

 

As one of the places Cells could take place, I would kill to see a Warframe version of WH40Ks space hulks *sqeeee* can't call em space hulks ofc, so we'd have to call em derelicts or ghost ships.

 

Yes, yes, yes, YES! My friends and I are frequently commenting on how the new Galleon tileset is already strongly reminiscent of a Space Hulk. You know, minus all the Genestealers, random Ork hordes and Warp abominations. It would be totally cool to see Infested come crawling out of air ducts, or dropping from the ceiling like the Tenno in *nearly* every mission opening.

While I'm on a roll, perhaps have a much more dynamic (and dangerous) environmental hazard systems on derelicts? Say, for example, a corridor of reinforced glass spontaneously breaking, or sections of the ship beginning to explode, needing to bypass complex locked doors while under powerful assault... something that keeps players on their toes and fighting for survival... and the accompanying gratuitous loot.

[Dieson]

You should check out this thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/49002-environmental-modifiers-a-rework-ii/ in the maps and levels forum :)

 

SOme really good enviromental suggestions there.

[Relkin]

I was thinking about this and territorial bonuses, the clan thing and collective tech centers are cool and all but idk if the devs would be OK with that given how it'd diminish the dojo and all, but what if they provided special alerts in systems which are completely under Tenno control?

 

 Lets say Tenno have full ownership of Xini - this will cause three alerts (one during euro prime time, aisia prime time and US prime time) every couple days to appear which pulls rewards from a select pool or rare items which are different for each system (the alerts would be same reward on the day they spawn just across different timezones to ease the issue of a global game being slaved to timed rewards).  This could help with the scarcity of certain rewards while providing incentive to take and hold these territories after the research has been accomplished (if that's implemented) while at the same time giving people better access to certain items which are frankly far too rare. 

[Reichmar]

I can see that tossing a bunch of confusion into the mix at the introduction of dynamic political control would be troublesome, so allow me to alter my suggestion a bit. Keep dynamic control on the backburner while implementing the more simple format of your perpetual endgame suggestion, and see how well that meshes into the community. Then, consider implementing dynamic control in a more rudimentary form and modifying based on user feedback. The only reason I am particularly fond of this being included alongside an end-game centered around influence over a planetary system is that it adds an otherwise missing visible measure of progress towards a defined goal, rather than a numerical value on the user interface.

In terms of making things a bit more rudimentary - scrap the idea of enemies being able to reclaim territory by re-locking accessible missions. I realize that was a bit extreme. If the idea of enemy factions spreading beyond or losing their "native" systems as far as current circumstances are concerned, how about emulating that effect to a lesser extent by increasing the chances that an enemy faction or two butts their way into a mission? For example, in a weakened Grineer system there is an extra-high chance of the Infested or Corpus showing up to pick them off while they're weak?

That being said, I think that one of the things that is missing from this game (a lot of games, really...) that could contribute a great deal to setting it apart from its competitors is immersion. So many games focus so much on novelty gameplay mechanics or graphics engines that they take away from the effort put into drawing players into the game world. Don't get me wrong, it's not that a degree of immersion isn't there at all - and most games do a sufficient job of presenting it. But a lack of immersion is a problem that is strongly specific to games that present players with a world where the odds are supposedly stacked against them. To get an idea of what I'm talking about, look at the Left 4 Dead series. They're nicely atmospheric, but they feel more like a multiplayer arcade shooter than some sort of zombie-apocalypse survival game. Because of the fact that they never really feel like a desperate struggle for survival (barring the more ridiculous difficulty settings, but even then those simply necessitate shooting faster.) rather than heading out for a nice bout of zombie blasting fun with your friends. Given the fact that there aren't any shiny new toys to grind for as there are in Warframe, L4D gameplay gets really old, really fast. When we're just starting up this game, we're presented with being a member of a vastly outnumbered force drawn into a desperate struggle against an expansive enemy. And, much like L4D, the game feels more like jumping in for a slaughter alongside friends.

The solution isn't upping the difficulty. The solution is giving each of the enemy factions a more unique characteristic identity, and giving more weight to the special operations missions Tenno run so frequently. And Phaenur's suggestion for a perpetual end game gives a perfect medium through which this can be accomplished. It is important to keep this in mind for the purpose of preventing a suggestion that gives the game something more than a reason to grind... from becoming grinding with a slightly altered set of goals in mind. Make it so that the enemies can fight back somehow.

Off Topic: It'd be nice to see the addition of "Resource Alert" missions and related rewards. Especially taking into consideration the manufacturing costs of Dojo development, it'd be nice to see some of those 2000 Credit Alert missions turn into say, 1000 *Insert Resource Name Here* (with scaled quantities based on resource rarity) Alert missions. I always found it disappointing that for all the Rubedo depots/caches I've messed up for the Grineer, not once have I been smart enough to stop and take as much of it as I could.

Cheers.

 

Great idea. I support this.

 

However I think that we also need incentives and ways to keep making ourselves stronger. In short, I look at your idea, and I look at Notionphil's "Cells" as great, great additions to gameplay that add very complex layers to the current game and, with the addition of higher difficulty content, would keep people busy for a very, very long time.

 

Your system allows for public, non-clan players to access unique items and utilities while also being able to contribute, as well as allowing for inter-clan cooperation and rivalry.

 

NP's idea provides for specific challenge modes tailored for players who want to challenge their abilities to tackle specific situations.

 

If DE were to look at adding both of these as well as some harder, more rewarding linear progression, this game would be so  ...

 

...

 

Ok, I need to change my pants now. BRB!

[DiabolusUrsus]

Well, I figured I'd drop in for a bit since I'm not sure what Phaenur's internet situation is at the moment... I know the lovely weather was playing its hand at interference, so in the event that he isn't back in the immediate future it'd be nice not to see this thread drop off of the radar. As a means of gross oversimplification, here's a bit of a tl;dr for the ideas I'm inclined to believe are generally supported.

1. Tenno are engaged in a continual fight for control over the various subsystems within Sol, with the computer getting a persistent gain of control that needs to be overcome. Having more control goes hand in hand with better rewards, and vice versa.

2. Alert missions that don't feature "?" rewards are repurposed into a wider array of miscellaneous objectives with more potent influence on Tenno control over their corresponding sectors.

3. Sector bosses are transformed into actual global adversaries, with enemies gaining the ability to recapture territory if too many Tenno fail critical defense missions that pop up as sector control decreases. Make sure that the computer has a potential for gaining overwhelmingly favorable odds, so that the new system doesn't devolve into more complicated farming maintenance.

4. Spice up both normal and alert missions with more dynamically changing environmental conditions to emulate changes to the flow of battle.

 

5. Give bosses miniboss-styled underlings that appear earlier on in their respective sectors.

With a more personal preference emphasis on creating more iconic faction-specific identities.

While I'm still getting around to spewing off random nonsense, I just thought that it'd be a pretty nice change to reverse the planetary progression as it is now... I mean... The Tenno are mainly fighting the Grineer, right? And the Grineer are based on Earth. That's literally their 'Origin' system. I think it kinda doesn't make sense for the last remaining Tenno to be found (for the most part) around Mercury, which by simple logical proximity should be well within Grineer control. It would make way more sense for them to start out around, say... Pluto... somewhere the Grineer have a harder time reaching. I'm suggesting basically the exact same planetary setup... but in reverse order concerning level scaling. I can see that such a change would be needlessly convoluted and relatively pointless, but my pseudo-OCD demanded that I bring it up at least once.

Still, if it changed to what I'm suggesting, there's a good amount of scrap material for a rough storyline...
The Tenno start to wake up > they take control of the ends of the "Solar Rail" system while building up resources > Begin pushing back through Grineer territory using Phaenur's perpetual endgame suggestion, occasionally stopping to cull the growing infested hordes or avoid opportunistic Corpus raids. > they continue to gain territory until they can amass the manpower to mount an assault on the origin system itself.

[Enomic]

Where is DE at? Come on Devs, respond to this topic, encourage us!!!

[Lotlock]

Since it took me half an hour to get through the first post, I didn't read all the other posts in this thread, so forgive me if I end up repeating something that someone has already said. Anyhow.

My criticism is primarily based on your idea to lower enemy spawn rates and increase drop chances as a "reward" for this system.

This seems like a bit too dual-sided for achieving victory in something that's intended to potentially take a week(/weeks) to accomplish, and more importantly, it would probably end up reducing the fun of the game for a lot of people. I, personally, quite enjoy killing massive amounts of enemies, and if the spawn rates take too big of a hit, then running missions may just end up being boring. 

My solution is that, since this is all designed to increase the end-game, once a sector has been taken over, increase the drop rates for the area as a whole. Not by too much, but something that makes the effort worth-while for everyone, even those that can't participate in the next bit of my solution.

The major part of my solution is to unlock a new mission or two in that sector. Something much more difficult than your average mission, with more exclusive drops and significantly higher drop rates for things you can get in that sector.

Since this would be designed as the end-game, it doesn't make sense that completing it would make things EASIER as people would already have fairly overpowered gear (as a result of having played enough to be AT the end-game). So give people the opportunity to unlock something more challenging and more rewarding rather than easier and (potentially) more boring. 

Personally I'm already at the current end-game (which is obviously lackluster due to it being beta), and most of what I'm doing is running areas that are too easy for me, trying to get items that rarely drop. It's boring, and this is just one more thing that could help fix that. Along with simply adding more higher-level content, obviously. 

Anyway, that's all the input I really have at the moment. I'll probably be back if I think of something else.

Other than that, I think the idea is really cool, and would love for DE to implement something like this. Oh, and like with the first post, I'd appreciate any criticisms or opinions of my addition to this idea.

[MyXmaN]

where can i throw my money to make it happen?

[Enomic]

Can we bump this?

[Merlinhawk]

Nice Idea!

[Dieson]

Was browsing the forums when I spotted this thread.: 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/66119-harmony-the-opposite-of-mastery-an-overhaul-of-affinity/

 

That is a really good idea that would seem to combine really well with your idea Phaenur, also, it's by Notionphil

 

Give it a read, I don't think you wll be disappointed ^_^ 

Edited June 17, 2013 by Dieson

[DiabolusUrsus]

Since it took me half an hour to get through the first post, I didn't read all the other posts in this thread, so forgive me if I end up repeating something that someone has already said. Anyhow.

My criticism is primarily based on your idea to lower enemy spawn rates and increase drop chances as a "reward" for this system.

This seems like a bit too dual-sided for achieving victory in something that's intended to potentially take a week(/weeks) to accomplish, and more importantly, it would probably end up reducing the fun of the game for a lot of people. I, personally, quite enjoy killing massive amounts of enemies, and if the spawn rates take too big of a hit, then running missions may just end up being boring. 

My solution is that, since this is all designed to increase the end-game, once a sector has been taken over, increase the drop rates for the area as a whole. Not by too much, but something that makes the effort worth-while for everyone, even those that can't participate in the next bit of my solution.

The major part of my solution is to unlock a new mission or two in that sector. Something much more difficult than your average mission, with more exclusive drops and significantly higher drop rates for things you can get in that sector.

Since this would be designed as the end-game, it doesn't make sense that completing it would make things EASIER as people would already have fairly overpowered gear (as a result of having played enough to be AT the end-game). So give people the opportunity to unlock something more challenging and more rewarding rather than easier and (potentially) more boring. 

Personally I'm already at the current end-game (which is obviously lackluster due to it being beta), and most of what I'm doing is running areas that are too easy for me, trying to get items that rarely drop. It's boring, and this is just one more thing that could help fix that. Along with simply adding more higher-level content, obviously. 

Anyway, that's all the input I really have at the moment. I'll probably be back if I think of something else.

Other than that, I think the idea is really cool, and would love for DE to implement something like this. Oh, and like with the first post, I'd appreciate any criticisms or opinions of my addition to this idea.

I can agree with pretty much everything you've said. This idea should definitely be an extra layer to the game, rather than something that adversely affects it under normal circumstances. I think that what you've brought up can be addressed by one of my suggestions: having the enemies occasionally acquire overwhelming odds in their favor. An objective event that is nigh impossible to complete as a result of difficulty or sheer numeric superiority. (In a very simple form, the Fusion Moa event but with a ridiculous requirement for success.) Obviously it will be difficult to implement such a system without completely frustrating players while keeping things interesting and original, but I think it will definitely be worth the effort.

The impression of difficulty should also be partially addressed by the suggested ability of the AI to 'recapture' its territory, actually pushing players back in the absence of focused resistance. In terms of presenting players with an ever-more-difficult end game system, perhaps introduce a system for scaling alerts generated by the endgame system to preferred player difficulty? For example, basing enemy level off of a calculated value of the equipment a player brings in to the mission.

That aside, it would definitely be a good idea to unlock a series of bonus, extra-high difficulty missions. I think that's where DE meant to go with their Void runs... but getting keys for Tower III can be a bit too restrictive lacking platinum. (I also haven't been to Tower III, so I don't know whether it actually qualifies as high difficulty.)

[DiabolusUrsus]

Was browsing the forums when I spotted this thread.: 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/66119-harmony-the-opposite-of-mastery-an-overhaul-of-affinity/

 

That is a really good idea that would seem to combine really well with your idea Phaenur, also, it's by Notionphil

 

Give it a read, I don't think you wll be disappointed ^_^ 

Looks rather interesting, perhaps it could be something that would be integrated with the sector influence system from Phaenur's suggestion?

[Dieson]

Exactly and also Notionphils own Cells idea, all 3 meshed together to one rather juicy piece of game enhancing system.

 

This is ofc only my own impression on these ideas.