If De Is Planing On Making All Future End Game Locked Behind A Pay/grind Wall Like The Void Missions, I Think That's A Big Mistake.

[Milkin]

 

Yeah I don't know either, just roll with it will you?

Seems like i just got a new friend.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

You can still get all the content. You just have to earn it. Besides that. if you have a few friends who got more luck than you, they could easily invite you.

Waiting on an RNG isn't "earning it" there is no "earning it" with warframe's current system.

[winterau]

Waiting on an RNG isn't "earning it" there is no "earning it" with warframe's current system.

 

This, so much this.

 

DE really need to respond to this blatant, greedy cash grab and to be honest, it needs to be more than Rebecca's "I agree, I will take it to the team" who then absolutely dismiss it in the next live stream.

[Iraetus]

Also, on a more blunt note, how exactly the f**k am I supposed to know the mentality of someone? I may be crazy, but I'm not psychic!

You said it, so you can't just go on and bash anyone just because you see they have a Grandmaster badge.

 

Anyway, back to the OP.

 

This "somehow" started with the Glaive, being the "most anticipated weapon". They made it alert only and plat only. They knew it was anticipated so they took advantage over it, made it plat only. 

 

And then U8 came.

 

The Void, Frost Prime, the dojo. The most anticipated things in U8, 75% of contents are in the void. What do we get?  Void keys  thats right.

Yeah sure, we can farm for Void keys but ugh, its not like you'll get something good in T1. Oh, lets not add the fact that we cannot do a Dojo room without Forma nor use the Frost Prime BP without a Void Key.

 

Oh and no, I'm not raging. Its just the fact that new contents seem to be yeah, trapped behind that pay/grind wall, well, really bad idea.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Issence

[bualeminkrali]

alerts arent a feasible solution, need like 5 runs for a frost prime part, so you need like 250 days to collect the set(10 days after patch release and still no alert, so taking it as minimum average time of a key alert)

[CrazyCanadian24]

You said it, so you can't just go on and bash anyone just because you see they have a Grandmaster badge.

 

Actually, I don't bash on grand masters - I just distrust them. Also, seeing as how I'm not psychic, I'm left with making an educated guess based on my own knowledge and personal experiences. Grand masters being biased is just a trend I've noticed during my time on the forums. By no means is it personal - just me being wary, and rightfully so.

[ImaginaryFacepalm]

This is a shallow point, being a grand master doesn't mean that he's going to plat get EVERYTHING.

Although you would expect to get a full game for 250 bucks right?

[onemoonlight]

grind is mostly the point of a game like this... in diablo youd grind for items, here you'll prolly grind for mods once they add more rares and legendaries, as weapons seem to be goin the sidegrade route. Which is fine, as no one will be running with same equipment, looking the same ;)

 

either way, im happy with how and where the game is going so far

[Vesper_Akiri]

I have a butt load of keys, but do you know what I do with them?

 

Now and then I find some random pubs and drag them to the void with me, there isn't a giant "Pay wall" to get to this location, if it were you'd have no option to even grind them in the first place.

 

Working = Reward. It's like that for everything.

[ArsVampyre]

No, you don't. You get lucky.

You can't grind keys. The reward system for missions/defense is borked. DE knows it's borked and plan on trying to do something to fix it. So you're left with RNG on the login rewards and alerts.

YOU CANNOT FARM ALERTS OR LOGIN REWARDS.

QED, you can't farm Keys, and you can't farm Forma.

You can get VERY lucky, pool that luck across a big enough group and it doesn't FEEL like you're being lucky (but you are, because they can only take 3 other people and you consistently get chosen), or you can buy it.

For most of us, that means buying it. You can deny it all day long, but your 'working = reward' is false. It's demonstrably false. Stop making that argument, because it's wrong.

Until DE fixes the reward system for missions and defense in particular, you can't grind those things. You can play all day long with 0% chance of ever getting that reward, because it's stuck on Hellfire or something like that. And it does get stuck.

That's also why there's no sense doing better than 5 waves if you want the mission reward on defense; you've got no better chance of obtaining something good from wave 5 than wave 10 or any other iteration, but you'll get more materials and do the missions quicker and easier if you start a new one every 5 (and a better chance at getting the reward unstuck. When my cell would do waves up to 25, we'd get the same reward once it got to hellfire, streamline, or the pistol fire elemental mod EVERY time without exception until we reset the mission, and usually not even then.) The only reason to do higher-level defense is the mod drops (in quality, not number) do scale with difficulty. That's not always good. I'd almost always want a redirection mod over a warm coat, for example, despite how rare warm coat is.

And void mission drops are stingy; no materials, few mods. My clan has all but decided that on t1 keys to just speedrun the mission because there's nothing much to get.

And then you find out DE set certain BP on each item from the void to be so rare that you'll need to run them hundreds of times to receive one particularly necessary peice? Good that they made them more common in T3 runs but that's not farming, grinding, or anything else. It's a platinum sink for you to dump all that excess grand-master platinum into, buying keys and forma.

And for those who don't have an excess of Platinum? Guess they're SOL.

That's the paywall people keep talking about and Masters/Grand Masters keep pretending doesn't exist because they don't feel it's effects. Most of U8 is pay to play, by design.

[matrixEXO]

grind is mostly the point of a game like this... in diablo youd grind for items, here you'll prolly grind for mods once they add more rares and legendaries, as weapons seem to be goin the sidegrade route. Which is fine, as no one will be running with same equipment, looking the same ;)

 

either way, im happy with how and where the game is going so far

Wait, so you want to grind to be able to grind? This is... new.

 

Why I said above: "You grind for keys to be able to grind for mods, mats and BP easily/only obtainable from there."

 

THIS! IS! GRINDCEPTION!

Edited June 3, 2013 by matrixEXO

[nakatotaiyou]

well, maybe im just very lucky, but ive gotten quite a few void keys, without using platinum, since update 8. so far me and 3 other friends have done 9 tower runs, and have 4 more void keys in total, waiting to be used when we all are online. from my experience void keys are not THAT hard to get...

[CrazyCanadian24]

well, maybe im just very lucky, but ive gotten quite a few void keys, without using platinum, since update 8. so far me and 3 other friends have done 9 tower runs, and have 4 more void keys in total, waiting to be used when we all are online. from my experience void keys are not THAT hard to get...

 

I wish the RNG god loved me that much...

[BadAimbot]

I think DE needs to come up with some sort of endgame not centered around randomness. Randomness can add some fun to a game but we need something reliable so we can feel like we're working toward something rather than crossing our fingers. A fair few blueprints work this way, but making weapons and frames shouldn't be an endgame because those things are crucial to how we play. Mods are a bit better, but the rarity is just too damn high. For example, if they made rarer mods more common, but you required more mods to level them up, things would feel a lot better. They don't have to do that, but we need something to make us less dependent on RNG.

[zugumba]

I doubt they will base their end game content solely on void missions. Theres much more that can be done with the normal missions on the solar system, theres much room for improvement.

[Excitonex]

No, you don't. You get lucky.

You can't grind keys. The reward system for missions/defense is borked. DE knows it's borked and plan on trying to do something to fix it. So you're left with RNG on the login rewards and alerts.

YOU CANNOT FARM ALERTS OR LOGIN REWARDS.

QED, you can't farm Keys, and you can't farm Forma.

You can get VERY lucky, pool that luck across a big enough group and it doesn't FEEL like you're being lucky (but you are, because they can only take 3 other people and you consistently get chosen), or you can buy it.

For most of us, that means buying it. You can deny it all day long, but your 'working = reward' is false. It's demonstrably false. Stop making that argument, because it's wrong.

Until DE fixes the reward system for missions and defense in particular, you can't grind those things. You can play all day long with 0% chance of ever getting that reward, because it's stuck on Hellfire or something like that. And it does get stuck.

That's also why there's no sense doing better than 5 waves if you want the mission reward on defense; you've got no better chance of obtaining something good from wave 5 than wave 10 or any other iteration, but you'll get more materials and do the missions quicker and easier if you start a new one every 5 (and a better chance at getting the reward unstuck. When my cell would do waves up to 25, we'd get the same reward once it got to hellfire, streamline, or the pistol fire elemental mod EVERY time without exception until we reset the mission, and usually not even then.) The only reason to do higher-level defense is the mod drops (in quality, not number) do scale with difficulty. That's not always good. I'd almost always want a redirection mod over a warm coat, for example, despite how rare warm coat is.

And void mission drops are stingy; no materials, few mods. My clan has all but decided that on t1 keys to just speedrun the mission because there's nothing much to get.

And then you find out DE set certain BP on each item from the void to be so rare that you'll need to run them hundreds of times to receive one particularly necessary peice? Good that they made them more common in T3 runs but that's not farming, grinding, or anything else. It's a platinum sink for you to dump all that excess grand-master platinum into, buying keys and forma.

And for those who don't have an excess of Platinum? Guess they're SOL.

That's the paywall people keep talking about and Masters/Grand Masters keep pretending doesn't exist because they don't feel it's effects. Most of U8 is pay to play, by design.

Void keys are so hard to get by doing only missions that I've got 12 right now, never mind the ones I already used.

 

Random drops are not earned. That's why no one cared about getting legendary items in WoW.

 

You have to spend 256 hours of farming on average to get latron prime without spending plat, and no one has any friends to reduce this time in any fashion.

/sarcasm

 

If you can put a hole in your argument easier than wet toilet paper you should probably take a minute to construct a better argument. If you're looking at all of this as a free-solo-player then yes, everything will take hundreds or thousands of hours to unlock. Luckily, this is a multiplayer game that allows you to team up with 3 of your friends and get things done 4x as fast! If one of you decides to pay the 75 plat for a key pack instead of renting a movie or getting some fast-food then you'll all feel the benefit. This game only requires you to spend time to unlock all in-game gear, money speeds things up a bit but it doesn't create an unbridgeable gap.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Excitonex

[CrazyCanadian24]

Void keys are so hard to get by doing only missions that I've got 12 right now, never mind the ones I already used.

 

Random drops are not earned. That's why no one cared about getting legendary items in WoW.

 

You have to spend 256 hours of farming on average to get latron prime without spending plat, and no one has any friends to reduce this time in any fashion.

/sarcasm

 

I know that was sarcasm, buuuuut.....

 

1: You got lucky. The RNG works in strange ways.

2: Random drops aren't earned.

3: Actually, that's about right, and friends do not necessarily reduce the time it takes to get X Void item.

[Excitonex]

I know that was sarcasm, buuuuut.....

 

1: You got lucky. The RNG works in strange ways.

2: Random drops aren't earned.

3: Actually, that's about right, and friends do not necessarily reduce the time it takes to get X Void item.

If you have a single friend who plays as much as you it should halve the time to get any void item. Unless, somehow, doubling the number of runs you do does not reduce the time it takes to do the number of runs you need on average to get the item. Same total man-hours but, as the saying goes, many hands makes for light work.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Excitonex

[Kedlaw]

On one hand I understand the devs. They were hoping probably to keep people busy for a month or two with the new content. Buy some time after the crunch. They are victims of their own success.

 

On the other hand this feels just wrong. They are going faster that they can handle. They are diluting the game out of lack of time.

Things like changing the sound of the vipers to make them less desirable to push dojo weapons. Overpowering new things  like "throwing knife machine gun". 

 

Wip tossing grineer birds that are just annoying, there is no gameplay in that, no action reaction mechanik like with shock moa.

 

I sympathise with devs, I do 90 hour weeks sometimes and at the end of the week like that you just don't give a #$^& about anything.

Still not an  excuse to make my vipers make farting sounds. 

 

They are doing some great things with the game. Thats why people are still here. I hate to love the game.

 

Also remember that people that make the game are not necessarily the same people that sell the game. 

 

Imho

[Excitonex]

On one hand I understand the devs. They were hoping probably to keep people busy for a month or two with the new content. Buy some time after the crunch. They are victims of their own success.

 

On the other hand this feels just wrong. They are going faster that they can handle. They are diluting the game out of lack of time.

Things like changing the sound of the vipers to make them less desirable to push dojo weapons. Overpowering new things  like "throwing knife machine gun". 

 

Wip tossing grineer birds that are just annoying, there is no gameplay in that, no action reaction mechanik like with shock moa.

 

I sympathise with devs, I do 90 hour weeks sometimes and at the end of the week like that you just don't give a #$^& about anything.

Still not an  excuse to make my vipers make farting sounds. 

 

They are doing some great things with the game. Thats why people are still here. I hate to love the game.

 

Also remember that people that make the game are not necessarily the same people that sell the game. 

 

Imho

I thought they changed the sound of the vipers because it was similar to the Afuris audio only faster due to fire rate?

 

You can dodge scorpion's spear, it fires in a straight, slowish, line.

[Kedlaw]

You can dodge scorpion's spear, it fires in a straight, slowish, line.

 

Yes but there is no audio or visual cue to warn you. I understand your point but you don't get one on one duels with them :)

 

Btw did you ever heard anyone saying "wow my afuris sounds brilliant" ? I may be biased as the owner of the extra polarized fart gun. 

I still use it when I play at work where I don't have sound :) I just make the old noise my self. TTRyRyRyRyRyRyRyRyRyRyRyRyRyRyRyRyRy. LOL

Maybe they will make plat only mod with the old sound ? Bitter you say ? O well. :)

Edited June 3, 2013 by Kedlaw

[Enot83]

DE intends to make money and be a profitable business, there is nothing wrong with this and it is in the best interest of anyone founder or not for them to be able to do so, without doing so there will not be F2P model or worse there would be no warframe at all.  This is the simple truth unless all employees and/or developers of DE are sitting on millions in trust funds or previous profits that they intend to develop the game just out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

Basically alot of what I see in this thread and argument devolving into is either:

A. Your argument about how easy the content was to complete for many in less than 2 weeks because RNG likes you.

B. Your argument about how easy the content was to complete is because you're a founder so your argument is invalid.

 

Getting keys with the current RNG system is not difficult, and takes a little bit of time, running the right missions, with the correct mindset with the goal being to maximize your end reward to influence the rate at which you complete missions for having the chance to acquire keys, along with having 3 others with you with a similar mindset who will alternate the use of an obtained key in order to maximize the amount of runs for each key earned.  This is what a number of people have done, in order to obtain what is available in the void with both good and bad RNG for the obtaining of keys and obtaining of equipment.

 

Could this system be improved upon to make it more obtainable and less frustrating.  In short, yes.  There is a certain degree of balancing and economics etc that come in to play in regards to the interests of a company looking to both make a profit (for continued development) and keep the majority of its player base happy, or satisfied.

 

I don't disagree that there are issues, but I don't necessarily agree that what is suggest in the OP will solve these issues appropriatly, and won't create a number of others in the process.  I also find that using games with a monthly sub and initial cost to the game as an example while complaining about the cost/progression of things in this game is inherently wrong and blatantly ignores how one game operates as opposed to another.  I also think that the approach to what is being released and how the issues are approached by many is ridiculous and makes it look like people have lost sight of this being a beta test.  It seems that people, and to an extent understandably so, are more interested in getting everything they can in the game faster/easier than recognizing ways that make the business side successful enough that the ongoing development of the game can take place while at the same time the enjoyment of the game can coincide with that.  There are ways to make the game more enjoyable without that enjoyment needing to come from access to items.

[ArsVampyre]

Void keys are so hard to get by doing only missions that I've got 12 right now, never mind the ones I already used.

The plural of anecdote is not data. Your individual experience, while coloring your perceptions and perfectly normal, doesn't represent the general outcome for most. And looking at the reward tables, it's obvious why.

No, it's stupid to say these aren't accurate when we have no reason to think they're inaccurate.

Random drops are not earned. That's why no one cared about getting legendary items in WoW.

Random drops are earned if you have to keep killing the same things in order to obtain them. They're more earned than having to login or be available at the right time for a particular mission. And they're more predictable than a bugged reward system with a nearly 0% chance of ever giving you the items you're looking for.

Dropped items: I kill x enemy y times, I get z rewards. If I kill x enemy 2y times, I get 2z rewards.

Rewards as current: I run x mission y times, I get z rewards. I run x mission 2y times, I get z rewards.

That's the difference. You can't farm because it has no bearing on the result; you're not going to get a t3 key in 100 runs if you didn't get one in 50.

You have to spend 256 hours of farming on average to get latron prime without spending plat, and no one has any friends to reduce this time in any fashion.

/sarcasm

So you're just going to make up some number of hours, and that's supposed to make up an argument, but someone extracts the reward tables from the game itself and they're making the argument up? Why 256 hours? Why not 2024 hours or 3.14 years?

If you can put a hole in your argument easier than wet toilet paper you should probably take a minute to construct a better argument. If you're looking at all of this as a free-solo-player then yes, everything will take hundreds or thousands of hours to unlock. Luckily, this is a multiplayer game that allows you to team up with 3 of your friends and get things done 4x as fast! If one of you decides to pay the 75 plat for a key pack instead of renting a movie or getting some fast-food then you'll all feel the benefit. This game only requires you to spend time to unlock all in-game gear, money speeds things up a bit but it doesn't create an unbridgeable gap.

The problem is that you're the one with the wet-paper argument because the available data shows you're wrong. You base everything off of your own experience, which to us is as useful as if you'd made it up, like the hours to get a Latron Prime, and then you roll it back to buying keys, which IS THE PAYWALL.

For every person who says they have 12 keys for a weeks worth of playtime, not counting the ones they've already used, there are 20 people saying they've played as much and have none. Your answer to them, I suppose, is "RNG LOL, live with it!"

That's not a good answer. To make the game better, DE needs to do better than this. Your 'argument' is based on nothing, and doesn't help them improve their product. It's not going to help them improve their sales. It's just you whiteknighting something that doesn't need your protection, especially as inept as it is.

Warframe is a good product, and when it's finished, I'd probably pay $50 for it. Hell, I already did.

But I'm not going to shove dollars down the toilet for a game that doesn't provide as much as a $20 game on Steam but wants to charge 5 times the cost of a AAA Game to experience it. It's not that good.

If Update 8 is intended by DE to be a paid-content update, then let it be a paid content update like an expansion and none of this pretending it's free when it's not BS.

The rest of it doesn't matter. Your argument has already been disproven several times in different threads. You can ignore evidence in favor of your personal opinion, but you shouldn't expect anyone to treat your opinion as having any value for anything else. I'm not discounting you because you've paid $100 to DE, I'm discounting you because your argument isn't based on evidence, and it isn't helpful for fixing the already acknowledged problem, it's just denial of a problem we already knew existed but for which we didn't know the full extent.

[plznohurtme]

Personally I don't like the fact that all of the void content is behind a pay/grind wall right now. To me it would have made sense to have t1 void rewards be boss style rng where you aren't guaranteed loot, but make the keys common. Then leave t2/3 how they are now, because I understand DE needs to make money where they can. Having to do specific mission types to maybe get a key that may or may not be useful is just bad in my opinion.

[Excitonex]

The plural of anecdote is not data. Your individual experience, while coloring your perceptions and perfectly normal, doesn't represent the general outcome for most. And looking at the reward tables, it's obvious why.

No, it's stupid to say these aren't accurate when we have no reason to think they're inaccurate.

Random drops are earned if you have to keep killing the same things in order to obtain them. They're more earned than having to login or be available at the right time for a particular mission. And they're more predictable than a bugged reward system with a nearly 0% chance of ever giving you the items you're looking for.

Dropped items: I kill x enemy y times, I get z rewards. If I kill x enemy 2y times, I get 2z rewards.

Rewards as current: I run x mission y times, I get z rewards. I run x mission 2y times, I get z rewards.

That's the difference. You can't farm because it has no bearing on the result; you're not going to get a t3 key in 100 runs if you didn't get one in 50.

So you're just going to make up some number of hours, and that's supposed to make up an argument, but someone extracts the reward tables from the game itself and they're making the argument up? Why 256 hours? Why not 2024 hours or 3.14 years?

The problem is that you're the one with the wet-paper argument because the available data shows you're wrong. You base everything off of your own experience, which to us is as useful as if you'd made it up, like the hours to get a Latron Prime, and then you roll it back to buying keys, which IS THE PAYWALL.

For every person who says they have 12 keys for a weeks worth of playtime, not counting the ones they've already used, there are 20 people saying they've played as much and have none. Your answer to them, I suppose, is "RNG LOL, live with it!"

That's not a good answer. To make the game better, DE needs to do better than this. Your 'argument' is based on nothing, and doesn't help them improve their product. It's not going to help them improve their sales. It's just you whiteknighting something that doesn't need your protection, especially as inept as it is.

Warframe is a good product, and when it's finished, I'd probably pay $50 for it. Hell, I already did.

But I'm not going to shove dollars down the toilet for a game that doesn't provide as much as a $20 game on Steam but wants to charge 5 times the cost of a AAA Game to experience it. It's not that good.

If Update 8 is intended by DE to be a paid-content update, then let it be a paid content update like an expansion and none of this pretending it's free when it's not BS.

The rest of it doesn't matter. Your argument has already been disproven several times in different threads. You can ignore evidence in favor of your personal opinion, but you shouldn't expect anyone to treat your opinion as having any value for anything else. I'm not discounting you because you've paid $100 to DE, I'm discounting you because your argument isn't based on evidence, and it isn't helpful for fixing the already acknowledged problem, it's just denial of a problem we already knew existed but for which we didn't know the full extent.

Maybe you should read the whole thread before you jump down my throat about what I do and don't assume? Coming in half-baked isn't doing anyone any favours.