[Suggestion] ~ Elemental Mods Overhaul ~

[muccmaster]

they are in fact game breaking every one is complaining about how endgame is too easy or how enemies are to easy .

remove the absurd benefits of the current elemental mods and see how people stop saying how easy every thing really is.

 

it will balance early - end game.

the end game itself  is supposed to be difficult.

 

if you want more damage sure, make more specific mods in the future

i.e.

 

infested hunter - do more damage to infested.

Grineer slayer - do more damage to grineer.

Corpus breaker - do more damage to corpus.

 

more mods that  specialize your weapon for specific situations.

not gods of destruction of all beings, 

Actually you're wrong. Endgame isn't easy because of elemental mods, it's because of the truly overpowered mods like Serration/Point blank/etc, Piercing damage, and Multishot. High level mobs have high resistances which reduce elemental damage by quite a bit. You take away the damage form elemental mods and people are still going to use the exact same loadouts because some mods will always be better than others. It's still going to be Damage mod, Multishot, Piercing, Fire rate, and whatever else is good at the time. There's no point in nerfing elemental, the best way is for DE to make more awesome mods to rival those that are already good.

[TisEric]

Actually you're wrong. Endgame isn't easy because of elemental mods, it's because of the truly overpowered mods like Serration/Point blank/etc, Piercing damage, and Multishot. High level mobs have high resistances which reduce elemental damage by quite a bit. You take away the damage form elemental mods and people are still going to use the exact same loadouts because some mods will always be better than others. It's still going to be Damage mod, Multishot, Piercing, Fire rate, and whatever else is good at the time. There's no point in nerfing elemental, the best way is for DE to make more awesome mods to rival those that are already good.

 

serration and the like are exactly why elemental mods should do no damage.

you already have the mods that focus on damage.

 

and you're not seriously telling me you believe  90% increase in damage + an effect + damage multiplier is not overpowered when you can and DO stack 4 of them in every loadout. 

damage resistances are good = hard eng game.

 

i don't care about endgame specifically i care about overall balance and choice.

right now your only choice is to stack elemental mods on top of the already stupidly high damaging mods.

 

that is not the way to go, make elements worthy of choice and have restrictions to how you can combine them  would make the modding of weapons have depth , choice and consequence.

 

stacking everything to be uber 1 hit kill monsters is not depth and has no consequence or downside.

[Aizeol]

Although I am not in favor of getting rid of all the additional damage, having more utility in elemental weapons would be nice. Right now, there is no option or strategy besides "MOAR DEE-PI-ESS!!", so the ability to due more damage and change the behavior of the enemies would be amazing and keep the game from getting stale.

One other thing, it has been mentioned that it would be insane if you just modded a weapon with too many elements. Even having all the elements at level 1 could mean that a weapon has 8 elements at once. Why not limit them to 2-3 elements per weapon? This could work similarly to how the powers work, but instead they all tick off as an element and the code just won't allow more than 2-3.

[muccmaster]

serration and the like are exactly why elemental mods should do no damage.

you already have the mods that focus on damage.

 

and you're not seriously telling me you believe  90% increase in damage + an effect + damage multiplier is not overpowered when you can and DO stack 4 of them in every loadout. 

damage resistances are good = hard eng game.

 

i don't care about endgame specifically i care about overall balance and choice.

right now your only choice is to stack elemental mods on top of the already stupidly high damaging mods.

 

that is not the way to go, make elements worthy of choice and have restrictions to how you can combine them  would make the modding of weapons have depth , choice and consequence.

 

stacking everything to be uber 1 hit kill monsters is not depth and has no consequence or downside.

If you're not doing endgame then dont stack elemental mods. You dont need the damage unless you're going against crazy high level mobs anyway so you have all the choices you want. Why do you care how everyone else plays? Use the setup YOU like. No one is forcing you to use all the elemental mods.

[TisEric]

If you're not doing endgame then dont stack elemental mods. You dont need the damage unless you're going against crazy high level mobs anyway so you have all the choices you want. Why do you care how everyone else plays? Use the setup YOU like. No one is forcing you to use all the elemental mods.

 

..... that's such a straw man argument....

sure i can not use the mods... then what should i use? every thing else is bad or useless.

hindering yourself is not more choice its lack of choice.

need =/= want , every one likes doing more damage , seeing higher numbers , faster farming runs.

doesn't mean its good for the overall game.

 

i am not telling you how to play the game i want more choice and variety because dumping damage into every slot is the only viable build.

 

 

Although I am not in favor of getting rid of all the additional damage, having more utility in elemental weapons would be nice. Right now, there is no option or strategy besides "MOAR DEE-PI-ESS!!", so the ability to due more damage and change the behavior of the enemies would be amazing and keep the game from getting stale.

One other thing, it has been mentioned that it would be insane if you just modded a weapon with too many elements. Even having all the elements at level 1 could mean that a weapon has 8 elements at once. Why not limit them to 2-3 elements per weapon? This could work similarly to how the powers work, but instead they all tick off as an element and the code just won't allow more than 2-3.

 

i did touch upon this earlier , i want there to be restrictions to the elements you can use.

E.I. fire cant be used with cold , explosive cant be used with fire , small restrictions between mods that stop effects from happening.

specifically so you cant just stack 8 elements into 1 gun , i feel 1-3 should be good .

[LasersGoPewPew]

i'm still waiting til the devs make elements spread to enemies within X meter range, X being a number between 5-7 meters so it doesn't freeze/slow an entire room from one trigger pool(unless it was a horde of chargers as they always bunch up).

[Aizeol]

Overall argument = Elemental mods need to do damage or they won't be competitive. If we take away the damage mods, the devs will have to rebalance the whole game.

 

 

Overall argument = There are already damage mods, the elemental mods should focus on adding utility.

I understand where muccmaster is coming from. It would be a mountain of work to have to rebalance every enemy in the game, and every weapon. It would take time and resources away from other things people want to see implemented...that would take a lot of time and resources away from this idea...

The point that TisEric is making shouldn't be overlooked though. Right now, there is no other strategy in this game besides MORE DAMAGE and the mods cater to this idea. Sure cold slows enemies, and fire will make them freak out when they die. Plus there each enemy has weaknesses and resistances.

The problem is that this game isn't as engaging as it could be because it doesn't require strategies from the players, and the players only have one competitive strategy in dealing more damage. If you can deal damage faster, you win. That's all this game requires, and changing the elemental mods in the way TisEric has described will help produce more strategies for the players to use.

To address the other point, the max level enemies are just bullet sponges with higher numbers. The "rebalance" would most likely be making those numbers smaller. That's all it would really take.

Smarter enemies > Higher number enemies.

[IcarusNine]

Piercing Hit - 60% chance to Pierce Armor

 

Hellfire - 90% Fire damage over time (Anti-Infested)

 

Stormbringer - 75% chance to Shock enemies (Stun, Anti-Corpus)

 

Cryo Rounds - 75% chance to Chill enemies

 

 

Just changing the effects on the existing mods could be done without having to deal with the issue of players who already have existing mods.

Though you'd still have to consider the balance of such changes, since you're ultimately reducing player damage output (though perhaps not by as much as players would think, except against Corpus).

 

I like the idea of an Explosive mod that would have a chance of knocking down enemies (rather than the AoE/damage of thunderbolt).  A mod that does Poison damage might step into the territory of Mire and Acrid, but it's worth considering.

 

Everything else in this thread is just a disaster waiting to happen.

[TisEric]

Piercing Hit - 60% chance to Pierce Armor

 

Hellfire - 90% Fire damage over time (Anti-Infested)

 

Stormbringer - 75% chance to Shock enemies (Stun, Anti-Corpus)

 

Cryo Rounds - 75% chance to Chill enemies

 

 

Just changing the effects on the existing mods could be done without having to deal with the issue of players who already have existing mods.

Though you'd still have to consider the balance of such changes, since you're ultimately reducing player damage output (though perhaps not by as much as players would think, except against Corpus).

 

I like the idea of an Explosive mod that would have a chance of knocking down enemies (rather than the AoE/damage of thunderbolt).  A mod that does Poison damage might step into the territory of Mire and Acrid, but it's worth considering.

 

Everything else in this thread is just a disaster waiting to happen.

 

its all just suggestions i doubt the evolution engine can even do some of those effects i suggested.

but having more unique effects is something i feel should be added.

make people  choose something to specialize in or rather let people have  more build options.

[muccmaster]

..... that's such a straw man argument....

sure i can not use the mods... then what should i use? every thing else is bad or useless.

hindering yourself is not more choice its lack of choice.

need =/= want , every one likes doing more damage , seeing higher numbers , faster farming runs.

doesn't mean its good for the overall game.

You just proved my point. The problem isn't that elemental mods are too good, it's that there needs to be more good mods added and the lousy current mods need buffs. And liking bigger numbers isnt the games problem, it's yours. You don't need to do 200 damage a bullet when the enemies you're fighting have 100hp.

 

You realize that by taking away the damage elemental mods do and having them do something like 20% chance to make enemies "slip" or some other stupid thing, all it does is make them @(*()$ USELESS. All you do is create more bad mods that no one uses and they go on to the next best mod setup. This community needs to get out of the nerf mentality, you're killing the game.

[Aizeol]

Also, why not have different elements act differently against different factions.

Sure, right now the infested are resistant to electricity, but it's still more damage. And the same with grineer and fire, and corpus with ice. They all still add damage so the benefit of more damage is still there.

Why not have:

Fire- deals damage over time. Infested take all the damage at once.

Electricity - deals damage. Corpus are stunned and damage has a chance to jump from enemy to adjacent foes. Possible disruption to their shields and robots.

Cold - deals damage, slight slow. Grineer are signicantly slowed, including fire rate.

Armor Piercing - If the target has armor it deals more damage, if it doesn't it has a chance to pierce through the enemy and keep traveling until it hits another enemy or a wall.

[MEsoJD]

 They should do damage over time... at the very least fire.

[TisEric]

You just proved my point. The problem isn't that elemental mods are too good, it's that there needs to be more good mods added and the lousy current mods need buffs. And liking bigger numbers isnt the games problem, it's yours. You don't need to do 200 damage a bullet when the enemies you're fighting have 100hp.

 

You realize that by taking away the damage elemental mods do and having them do something like 20% chance to make enemies "slip" or some other stupid thing, all it does is make them @(*()$ USELESS. All you do is create more bad mods that no one uses and they go on to the next best mod setup. This community needs to get out of the nerf mentality, you're killing the game.

 

proved your point how? by admitting that the game is focused too much on damage builds? or that most mods are bad?

this is common knowledge i am afraid....

 

elemental mods ARE overpowered simply because they offer to much. 

you can't denie it.

also that bigger numbers was a blanket statement bro , basic human psychology , we like bigger numbers.

you are trained and conditioned since birth to react positively to bigger numbers , better grade at school , bigger paycheck and so on.

this affects you conscientiously or un-conscientiously but it affects you non the less.

so when we have the options in a game to do more damage = bigger numbers on the screen it gives you that small joy in the back of your head.

the game just clearly emphasizes damage over every thing else, goes hand in hand.

 

i suggested Elemental mods have  A) a constant effect and B) a secondary affect on a % chance.

so for your example cold element will slow down enemies and have the % chance to make them slip.

if you think that  the cold effect from the mod is useless on its own you clearly not big in that "endgame" you like so much.

 

so in summery here , elemental mods don't need damage to be viable and should not have it.

Edited June 8, 2013 by TisEric

[Aizeol]

elemental mods don't need damage to be viable and should not have it.

I agree with most of your points except this. Elemental mods desperately need to be more than just a damage buff. They need utility to make them viable and act like more than a boost in numbers.

That being said, they should do a bit more damage. It shouldn't be near the damage of serration and the like, but it should be a slight buff. Even if it was 15% and it never got above that.

[Psychotoxin]

All my bumps for you, dear sir. specialization is very much needed in this game. It`s very good in this state, but lately i find myself cussing, that i didn`t get the pistol elemental mods, in a mission, to actually power up my pistols. but if there was specialization... jaysus, think of the combinations one could make...

[TisEric]

I agree with most of your points except this. Elemental mods desperately need to be more than just a damage buff. They need utility to make them viable and act like more than a boost in numbers.

That being said, they should do a bit more damage. It shouldn't be near the damage of serration and the like, but it should be a slight buff. Even if it was 15% and it never got above that.

i just simplified it since my stance on the matter was written a buncha times already :d

i think elemental mods should not do Extra damage but have  good utility and the % chance to do some kind of greater effect.

 

yeah right now elemental mods wouldn't be too great without the damage buff which is why i want the focus to be more on the actual elemental effect.

 

perhaps we can come to a compromise and say have some damage but  low enough of a percentage for it to be a non issue.

90% is clearly to much and 15% i think would be too low to be of any use.

so maybe 20%-25% but i would prefer there to be a bigger impact without any damage.

Edited June 8, 2013 by TisEric

[Aizeol]

i just simplified it since my stance on the matter was written a buncha times already :d

i think elemental mods should not do Extra damage but have  good utility and the % chance to do some kind of greater effect.

 

yeah right now elemental mods wouldn't be too great without the damage buff which is why i want the focus to be more on the actual elemental effect.

 

perhaps we can come to a compromise and say have some damage but  low enough of a percentage for it to be a non issue.

90% is clearly to much and 15% i think would be too low to be of any use.

so maybe 20%-25% but i would prefer there to be a bigger impact without any damage.

20-25% would be in the correct range of effective enough to be noticed, but not overpowered with the abilities they come with. Plus, they can be built up to so the mods can start at around 5% and work up to 20-25%.

That could work very well.

[TisEric]

updated OP.

[TisEric]

 They should do damage over time... at the very least fire.

 

some will  but not everything.

[TisEric]

20-25% would be in the correct range of effective enough to be noticed, but not overpowered with the abilities they come with. Plus, they can be built up to so the mods can start at around 5% and work up to 20-25%.

That could work very well.

Yeah,  its not exactly what i wantsd it to be but compromises must be made.

[Aizeol]

I understand. The elemental mods need more utility. Period. They don't all need to do the same damage though.

Some of the proposed elements you made would be overpowered if they had damage on top of the effect, but a little damage boost for some might help. Hell, some might even reduce damage if their effect is good enough.

It all depends on what the goal of the mod is, and if it isn't just "kill the enemy faster" then maybe damage isn't the right thing to put on it.

What I was trying to say is don't just get rid of all the damage buffs, but distribute them accordingly. An element that has a minor effect, but a higher damage buff will be much more enticing and be an actual choice when placed next to an element that has a major effect but either no damage or a slight debuff.

That would actually make the player choosing stop and think about what strategy they want to use.

[TisEric]

I understand. The elemental mods need more utility. Period. They don't all need to do the same damage though.

Some of the proposed elements you made would be overpowered if they had damage on top of the effect, but a little damage boost for some might help. Hell, some might even reduce damage if their effect is good enough.

It all depends on what the goal of the mod is, and if it isn't just "kill the enemy faster" then maybe damage isn't the right thing to put on it.

What I was trying to say is don't just get rid of all the damage buffs, but distribute them accordingly. An element that has a minor effect, but a higher damage buff will be much more enticing and be an actual choice when placed next to an element that has a major effect but either no damage or a slight debuff.

That would actually make the player choosing stop and think about what strategy they want to use.

 

 

that is a good point , but alas i cant really guess as to how useful any of the suggestions i made will be since i don't have all the necessary information to do an educated estimate.

 

but yeah i like having the variations in damage , will add to OP ~

[Aizeol]

Have to say, I really like this overhaul. It brings much needed utility into the game with a system that is already present.

Good job, sir. I hope DE sees this and takes it into consideration. Even if they only update the existing elements I'd call that a win.

[TisEric]

added some more suggestions~

[muccmaster]

Yes DE, please overhaul the mod system because of 7 people. Leave everyone using their damage mod, multishot, and piercing damage but ruin the elemental mods just becaused there's not enough good mods for them to rival with. That way we have everyone using damage mod, multishot, piercing, fire rate, reload speed, and insert lousy elemental mods here.

 

Adding more good mods is the only smart way to balance out the mod system, look at thunderbolt for example.