[Suggestion] ~ Elemental Mods Overhaul ~

[Keetsune]

I want to see how u fight vs 50+ mobs with suggested mechanic.

[Aizeol]

Yes DE, please overhaul the mod system because of 7 people. Leave everyone using their damage mod, multishot, and piercing damage but ruin the elemental mods just becaused there's not enough good mods for them to rival with. That way we have everyone using damage mod, multishot, piercing, fire rate, reload speed, and insert lousy elemental mods here.

 

Adding more good mods is the only smart way to balance out the mod system, look at thunderbolt for example.

Implied with this would be a slight balancing of the enemies too. Right now, more damage is the only sound strategy.

With these mods, there would be more than one strategy to take them out. The elemental mods are just granting higher damage, and after a while that isn't fun anymore and the game grows stale. There will always be room for more utility specific mods, and this overhaul would create some quickly.

The assumption that everything would stay the same with this overhaul is misplaced, but a valid concern. To balance this utility overhaul, the devs would need to balance the AI to deal with it. The practice of going into an enemy's stat line and making the numbers bigger or smaller to make them "harder" or "easier" needs to stop.

[Aizeol]

I want to see how u fight vs 50+ mobs with suggested mechanic.

By making 50+ mobs more than just a normal mob with higher numbers everywhere.

[Keetsune]

By making 50+ mobs more than just a normal mob with higher numbers everywhere.

Wich 1 elemental mod coz they do not stack, as suggestet OP, you will kill one wave of mobs extremely long.

[Aizeol]

Edited:

With 1 elemental mod because they do not stack, as suggested OP, it would take an extremely long time to kill one wave of mobs.

See, but I already said that the secondary effect of this would be the devs using a different tool besides "higher numbers" to make an enemy more difficult. This would put less emphasis on needing to do more damage, and put more significance on strategy and choosing how the battle will take place.

That may not be the goal of OP, but that also needs to happen to make the game stop going stale. If the only reasonable strategy is to have higher numbers to deal with higher numbers, it grows old quick.

[muccmaster]

By making 50+ mobs more than just a normal mob with higher numbers everywhere.

You honestly believe DE is capable of this? AI is arguably the hardest thing to program correctly and judging from the AI already implemented in this game, I seriously doubt they can. It's not just about making smarter AI either, they have to make the enemies more dynamic and synergistic.

[Aizeol]

You honestly believe DE is capable of this? AI is arguably the hardest thing to program correctly and judging from the AI already implemented in this game, I seriously doubt they can. It's not just about making smarter AI either, they have to make the enemies more dynamic and synergistic.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if they are capable or not. For this game to become amazing, they need to.

If they only rely on higher numbers the game will suffer and become more and more niche. If they focus on better enemy AI, then the game can prosper and become much, much better than it currently is.

Again, I don't care if they are or aren't capable; They need to be able to make better AI.

[Keetsune]

See, but I already said that the secondary effect of this would be the devs using a different tool besides "higher numbers" to make an enemy more difficult. This would put less emphasis on needing to do more damage, and put more significance on strategy and choosing how the battle will take place.

That may not be the goal of OP, but that also needs to happen to make the game stop going stale. If the only reasonable strategy is to have higher numbers to deal with higher numbers, it grows old quick.

I dont wanna say that i dont like your idea, i would happy to see such changes in game. BUT! There is to much need to be changed except mods mechanic in game to balance this. It's rly a lot of work for DE, but i think they have no other choice like making game better? or they have other choice?

Edited June 9, 2013 by Keetsune

[Aizeol]

I don't wanna say that I don't like your idea; I would happy to see such changes in game. BUT! There is too much that needs to be changed beyond the mods in game to balance this. It's really a lot of work for DE, but do they have any other choice to make the game better?

Sorry, having trouble reading your posts. I think I understand your concern though.

Honestly, the AI needs work regardless of them implementing this mod overhaul. The AI don't do anything in this game, and the lack of strategy needed is apparent. The only way to beat this game currently is to have higher numbers to deal with the enemy's higher numbers. It gets boring when shooting is your only course of action. These mods, and the resulting re-balance, would help but not permanently fix the problem that Warframe has in the game-play department.

The lack of enemy variety (which is being addressed, I know) along with the reliance on having higher values instead of smarter enemies is making Warframe more and more generic as time goes on. Beefing up the AI isn't really a choice, but a necessity. If they can accomplish that, so much of the game will benefit from it.

[Thypari2013]

Good idea. But I am for limiting the amount of parallel elemental mods to 1. With a new module that must be used to allow 1 additional ele mod on max rank.

[TisEric]

See, but I already said that the secondary effect of this would be the devs using a different tool besides "higher numbers" to make an enemy more difficult. This would put less emphasis on needing to do more damage, and put more significance on strategy and choosing how the battle will take place.

That may not be the goal of OP, but that also needs to happen to make the game stop going stale. If the only reasonable strategy is to have higher numbers to deal with higher numbers, it grows old quick.

 

oh obviously so.

this overhaul will directly force a change for more strategic play.

its one of the main reasons why i want this to happen.

 

 

Good idea. But I am for limiting the amount of parallel elemental mods to 1. With a new module that must be used to allow 1 additional ele mod on max rank.

 

i don't think that would be wise. it will restrict new players to much and its always more fun to mix and match mods for new  playstyles.

 

 

You honestly believe DE is capable of this? AI is arguably the hardest thing to program correctly and judging from the AI already implemented in this game, I seriously doubt they can. It's not just about making smarter AI either, they have to make the enemies more dynamic and synergistic.

 

do i believe they can do it? based on history , no.

but they did come up with this game , it has HUGE potential and i hope they can achieve greatness with it.

but they seem to go on the wrong path for this choosing the easy way out for Very short term gain and long term loss.

 

i have hope for this game yet else why would i bother being here coming up with ways to make the game better.

 

 

I dont wanna say that i dont like your idea, i would happy to see such changes in game. BUT! There is to much need to be changed except mods mechanic in game to balance this. It's rly a lot of work for DE, but i think they have no other choice like making game better? or they have other choice?

 

True, it will take more than this and that's the point.

this will be the big first step towards a better Warframe.

 

after this they can start adapting and improving the AI to be smarter , better ,stronger , faster (lol) .

this will be a tough jurney but in the end will result in a better game.

 

but if nothing changes and it all stays the same this game will die.

trust me on this, i played A LOT of games in my short 22 years on this planet , A LOT of free 2 play games and old franchises before them that had great potential and just didn't bother taking the necessary next step to become great.

 

i see huge potential yet untapped in warframe and wish it to be better.

[muccmaster]

Honestly, it doesn't matter if they are capable or not. For this game to become amazing, they need to.

If they only rely on higher numbers the game will suffer and become more and more niche. If they focus on better enemy AI, then the game can prosper and become much, much better than it currently is.

Again, I don't care if they are or aren't capable; They need to be able to make better AI.

MMO games are all about bigger numbers, games like Diablo and WoW have gone on for years with everyone doing one thing, getting bigger numbers. One of the most important things for a game like this is progression and getting more powerful. Removing damage from 3 mods and giving them lousy &#! status effects isn't going to balance out the mod system. The problem with this game right now is there's not many ways to build a weapon to do bigger numbers other than stacking damage mods. Mods like thunderbolt are a great example of giving more variety to more damage without it just being a straight up damage increase. Another thing they could do is buff the crit chance/damage mods so crit builds would be viable.

 

The game needs more good mods, not to have few good mods we have nerfed into oblivion.

[muccmaster]

 

but if nothing changes and it all stays the same this game will die.

trust me on this, i played A LOT of games in my short 22 years on this planet , A LOT of free 2 play games and old franchises before them that had great potential and just didn't bother taking the necessary next step to become great.

 

i see huge potential yet untapped in warframe and wish it to be better.

Sorry, but there are much bigger problems in the game than 3 powerful elemental mods. The game has gotten incredibly popular with the mod system the way it is. The game hasn't gotten stale because of the mod system, it's because there's nothing to do but farm.

[Aizeol]

Mods like thunderbolt are a great example of giving more variety...

Let me stop you right there before I address the rest of your post. What does Thunderbolt actually do? It has a chance to cause an explosion...that does more damage to a target and maybe the target next to it.

That isn't variety, it's more of the same problem of having a build that just adds more damage. Now, on the to the rest.

MMO games are all about bigger numbers, games like Diablo and WoW have gone on for years with everyone doing one thing, getting bigger numbers. One of the most important things for a game like this is progression and getting more powerful. Removing damage from 3 mods and giving them lousy &#! status effects isn't going to balance out the mod system. The problem with this game right now is there's not many ways to build a weapon to do bigger numbers other than stacking damage mods. Mods like thunderbolt are a great example of giving more variety to more damage without it just being a straight up damage increase. Another thing they could do is buff the crit chance/damage mods so crit builds would be viable.

 

The game needs more good mods, not to have few good mods we have nerfed into oblivion.

Bigger numbers are fine. We don't have a problem with bigger numbers. The issue is that is all we have. Even MMOs and Diablo varied the numbers with effects that did something besides damage.

Everything in this game needs to be rebalanced to the point that simply doing more damage at the higher levels isn't the best or only strategy. Right now, the game puts too much of an emphasis on damage without that damage meaning anything. The bigger numbers make my e-penis hard, but that's all.

To have a more engaging game, bigger numbers aren't the way. Smarter enemies that don't all roll over and take it in the bum are a start. Mods that have effects beyond damage is another tactic. Enemies that work together(ex. shield guys covering their teammates to give them mobile cover, squad leaders teleporting tenno in the middle of a firing squad, melee enemies sneaking around while the ranged enemies provide covering fire, etc.) make the game more fulfilling when you level the opposition.

Bigger numbers aren't bad, but relying solely on numbers is.

[TisEric]

MMO games are all about bigger numbers, games like Diablo and WoW have gone on for years with everyone doing one thing, getting bigger numbers. One of the most important things for a game like this is progression and getting more powerful. Removing damage from 3 mods and giving them lousy &#! status effects isn't going to balance out the mod system. The problem with this game right now is there's not many ways to build a weapon to do bigger numbers other than stacking damage mods. Mods like thunderbolt are a great example of giving more variety to more damage without it just being a straight up damage increase. Another thing they could do is buff the crit chance/damage mods so crit builds would be viable.

 

The game needs more good mods, not to have few good mods we have nerfed into oblivion.

 

except this is not true and this is also not an MMO.

if you believe that MMOs only focus on DPS , you doing it wrong.

every MMO game has classes each class specializes in a curtain playstyle , I.E. Warrior mains DPS , Tank mains Survivability , Cleric mains Healing and buffing , Wizard mains Debuffing , Rogue mains Disables and powerful attacks.

 

Diablo also not an mmo, Dungeon crawlers are designed from the ground up to make you want to be as efficient at killing as possible yet they also give you an abundance of ways to specialize your character outside of just straight up damage.

 

Progression and power is not about just gaining more damage.

you level up your warframe you gain more shields more health more mod slots for  the selected mods ,all make you more powerful but you do no increased damage.

 

i never claimed it will balance the mod system , i said it will  create more variety and specialization for players.

the current mods being overpowered is just a symptom of the games  lack of design.

 

 

what you suggest is that the game has  too much focus on damage yet all you wish to do is add more ways to just build more damage...

what we need are options to build things other than damage. 

and re balance the game so you don't HAVE to only max your damage to be viable.

this is not a nerf this is an overhaul.

Edited June 9, 2013 by TisEric

[muccmaster]

Let me stop you right there before I address the rest of your post. What does Thunderbolt actually do? It has a chance to cause an explosion...that does more damage to a target and maybe the target next to it.

That isn't variety, it's more of the same problem of having a build that just adds more damage. Now, on the to the rest.

Bigger numbers are fine. We don't have a problem with bigger numbers. The issue is that is all we have. Even MMOs and Diablo varied the numbers with effects that did something besides damage.

Everything in this game needs to be rebalanced to the point that simply doing more damage at the higher levels isn't the best or only strategy. Right now, the game puts too much of an emphasis on damage without that damage meaning anything. The bigger numbers make my e-penis hard, but that's all.

To have a more engaging game, bigger numbers aren't the way. Smarter enemies that don't all roll over and take it in the bum are a start. Mods that have effects beyond damage is another tactic. Enemies that work together(ex. shield guys covering their teammates to give them mobile cover, squad leaders teleporting tenno in the middle of a firing squad, melee enemies sneaking around while the ranged enemies provide covering fire, etc.) make the game more fulfilling when you level the opposition.

Bigger numbers aren't bad, but relying solely on numbers is.

I agree the game needs more ways to get bigger numbers, but to just have mods do useless things like slow an enemy down without some form of damage to go along with it will make the mod be completely useless. And chance on hit mods like Thunderbolt IS variety whether you understand it or not, it's not just a straight up base damage increase like Serration or Point Blank. Yes I want better AI. Yes I want more variety with mods, but to have all elemental mods just do status effects is pointless.

 

Like I've repeated a million times already, the game needs more mods and it will get more as the game gets older.

[ToeSama]

Bigger numbers aren't bad, but relying solely on numbers is.

This is one area in which you are not escaping though. The top builds for anything in any game are based on two things; Time and Damage. Time in that effects that proc within a certain time frame tends to require more time for those things to proc, or less time between procs. Damage is evident. It is the basis and backbone of any combat system. Like it or not, there is no escaping it.

Changing elemental mods to do lower, or no damage, is not aiding the game. The slack would need to be picked up somewhere else, be it weapons getting boosted or enemies getting nerfed. You're just trading numbers in one area for another. Lack of this would introduce power creep into the game, which is fairly well avoided at the moment.

I think damage boosters need to be left alone. There are other areas of far greater concern to address in the game before we make elemental mods do nice and shiny things aside from damage.

Edited June 9, 2013 by ToeSama

[muccmaster]

This is one area in which you are not escaping though. The top builds for anything in any game are based on two things; Time and Damage. Time in that effects that proc within a certain time frame tends to require more time for those things to proc, or less time between procs. Damage is evident. It is the basis and backbone of any combat system. Like it or not, there is no escaping it.

Changing elemental mods to do lower, or no damage, is not aiding the game. The slack would need to be picked up somewhere else, be it weapons getting boosted or enemies getting nerfed. You're just trading numbers in one area for another. Lack of this introduced power creep into the game, which is fairly well avoided at the moment.

I think damage boosters need to be left alone. There are other areas of far greater concern to address in the game before we make elemental mods do nice and shiny things aside from damage.

FINALLY someone who @(*()$ understands.

[muccmaster]

except this is not true and this is also not an MMO.

if you believe that MMOs only focus on DPS , you doing it wrong.

every MMO game has classes each class specializes in a curtain playstyle , I.E. Warrior mains DPS , Tank mains Survivability , Cleric mains Healing and buffing , Wizard mains Debuffing , Rogue mains Disables and powerful attacks.

 

Diablo also not an mmo, Dungeon crawlers are designed from the ground up to make you want to be as efficient at killing as possible yet they also give you an abundance of ways to specialize your character outside of just straight up damage.

 

Progression and power is not about just gaining more damage.

you level up your warframe you gain more shields more health more mod slots for  the selected mods ,all make you more powerful but you do no increased damage.

 

i never claimed it will balance the mod system , i said it will  create more variety and specialization for players.

the current mods being overpowered is just a symptom of the games  lack of design.

 

 

what you suggest is that the game has  too much focus on damage yet all you wish to do is add more ways to just build more damage...

what we need are options to build things other than damage. 

and re balance the game so you don't HAVE to only max your damage to be viable.

this is not a nerf this is an overhaul.

Where did I say MMO's are all about damage? I said they're about bigger numbers whether it be attack, defense, etc. and progression. It may not be a true MMO, but it's still an only multiplayer game. And dude, we're talking about elemental mods on WEAPONS. Of course the main focus should be getting the most damage. I agree there should be more variety in damage, but to take away damage from elemental mods is just going to  cause DE to either make enemies weaker or buff other things.

[Aizeol]

I agree the game needs more ways to get bigger numbers, but to just have mods do useless things like slow an enemy down without some form of damage to go along with it will make the mod be completely useless. And chance on hit mods like Thunderbolt IS variety whether you understand it or not, it's not just a straight up base damage increase like Serration or Point Blank. Yes I want better AI. Yes I want more variety with mods, but to have all elemental mods just do status effects is pointless.

 

Like I've repeated a million times already, the game needs more mods and it will get more as the game gets older.

 

This whole topic is about adding mods that have different effects beside just straight damage. Even Diablo had healing, buffing, debuffing, and other status effects as well as crowd control as alternative strategies to just straight damage. The whole point is adding utility and diverse strategies.

Also, I understand perfectly well that Thunderbolt is just a chance for damage. How is that difference than just damage? They fundamentally do the same thing, add numbers and more damage output. That is not variety. I don't care what you say, it's just a chance for more damage which isn't better. It's interesting, but not really new.

If the rest of the game was rebalanced so the numbers don't have to be astronomically high to matter. Now, elemental mods are the only thing that might add variety without need too much labor to actually create. They are a good starting point, but not an end point.

Don't just look for the easy response to balance. It's lazy and hurts the game later. I'm not saying take away all damage mods, and if you say I am you are lying and didn't read my post. I want damage to be there but DPS shouldn't be the default and only build for everyone. There needs to be variety in how battles are faced. The mods suggested here will accomplish some of that. The other half will be rebalancing the mobs so they don't have as much health, but are smarter about not getting hit.

One example is to have enemies go for cover when they hear an assault rifle or LMG being fired. That isn't the only thing that can be done, it's just what popped into my head right now.

 

This is one area in which you are not escaping though. The top builds for anything in any game are based on two things; Time and Damage. Time in that effects that proc within a certain time frame tends to require more time for those things to proc, or less time between procs. Damage is evident. It is the basis and backbone of any combat system. Like it or not, there is no escaping it.

Changing elemental mods to do lower, or no damage, is not aiding the game. The slack would need to be picked up somewhere else, be it weapons getting boosted or enemies getting nerfed. You're just trading numbers in one area for another. Lack of this introduced power creep into the game, which is fairly well avoided at the moment.

I think damage boosters need to be left alone. There are other areas of far greater concern to address in the game before we make elemental mods do nice and shiny things aside from damage.

I said already, there is a need to do more damage always, in every game. What I am frustrated with is that fact that Warframe is moving to, or is already in a situation that limits useful builds to only having the most damage done. There isn't any room for actual utility powers outside of horsing around. They can't be competitive and it makes the game a lot more stale than it should be.

Even MMOs had roles for characters, and I don't think that means there needs to be a hard-and-fast Healer Frame or the like, but there needs to be some way to deal with a threat besides just putting bullets into it constantly.

All that does is create bullet-sponge enemies that stand and take bullets to the face. Sure it's fun for a while, but that kind of game has no staying power and will be forgotten shortly after playing. Having variety in how a situation can be resolved will only help the game. So long as the player doesn't have upwards of 50 different ways to do a simple task, variety only helps the player get more engaged with the game.

[muccmaster]

 

This whole topic is about adding mods that have different effects beside just straight damage. Even Diablo had healing, buffing, debuffing, and other status effects as well as crowd control as alternative strategies to just straight damage. The whole point is adding utility and diverse strategies.

 

We are talking about mods for elemental mods for WEAPONS. Why would you make mods for guns that cause buffs and heal? The main point of mods for weapons is making them stronger. Debuffing works fine with mods for weapons, but they will still need damage along with it to be worth using.

Edited June 9, 2013 by muccmaster

[Aizeol]

To have some references to what I'm trying to say:

To put variety in the game that doesn't rely on numbers can be done with

As for balancing, again there is something to deal with

as well as

[Aizeol]

We are talking about mods for elemental mods for WEAPONS. Why would you make mods for guns that cause buffs and heal? The main point of mods for weapons is making them stronger. Debuffing works fine with mods for weapons, but they will still need damage along with it to be worth using.

Currently, yes they do. Is that the only way it should be? Should weapons in this game only have a DPS value and mean nothing outside of that?

Short answer: No, they should have more than just DPS making them worth using competitively. Relying on a single mechanic with minor tweaks is boring and ultimately lazy. Adding abilities and elements to weapons that allow for varied strategies is much more interesting.

This would require the devs to go and rebalance the enemy to actually do something that just pour damage out, however. They seem to be working on that, so I know they don't want the game to become boring and stale.

What I'm seeing from this thread is a lack of understanding. We aren't trying to just take away the damage and leave everything else the same. We never said that, nor do we want it. We want variety and more strategies beyond just having damage. This isn't CoD, it has more potential than that. Running and gunning is fine, but that isn't what this game should only be about.

[TisEric]

We are talking about mods for elemental mods for WEAPONS. Why would you make mods for guns that cause buffs and heal? The main point of mods for weapons is making them stronger. Debuffing works fine with mods for weapons, but they will still need damage along with it to be worth using.

because it adds CHOICE , VARIETY , SPECIALIZATION .

i am sorry but were just going in a circular debate where you keep proving our point that the game only focuses on damage and only builds that are viable are damage stacking.

 

its like you just ignore what we say outright.

The point of mods is to let you MODIFY the gun, not just make it stronger.

 

this means it lets you personalize the gun to your specific playstyle and at this point all you do is stack every damage mod because its the only viable option. 

you dont care avout "elemental mods" you care about the 3 mods that give you 90% more damage and  double damage you give no S#&$ about the actual element or how it affects your playstyle, that's what i want to overhaul make elemental mods  UTILITY not just more damage.

this adds variety. fixing the games bad design is an obvious thing that should happen regardless.

 

 

them be worth using is just your opinion,  i would gladly dump some damage for some great utility in my weapons.

but this is not supported in the game currently and i can just stack every thing anyway and go on my marry way  being all generic like the game currently is becoming.

[ToeSama]

This whole topic is about adding mods that have different effects beside just straight damage. Even Diablo had healing, buffing, debuffing, and other status effects as well as crowd control as alternative strategies to just straight damage. The whole point is adding utility and diverse strategies.

Diablo's USEFUL utility abilities can be compared to the Warframe abilities of select frames. Other abilities in Diablo fall by the way side unless they could contribute to killing things faster and more effectively to farm for items faster. That's the biggest priority in a loot based game. To change this, you would need to remove the loot system entirely.

The problem is not needing more mods, the problem is needing more space for customization beyond damage. This is not an option we have yet, and it is not the option being looked into in this thread.

Edited June 9, 2013 by ToeSama