Forma Value By Comparison - Priced Inaccurately.

[Enot83]

It's been something I've discussed with friends thought about since U8 was released.

 

Examining the gain and its impact via the market and similar items. Lets look at some information, if I have missed something, or there is incorrect information, something that should be added, please let me know.

 

Orokin Catalyst - effective gain of 30 mod capacity

 

Orokin Reactor - effective gain of 30 mod capacity

 

Forma - effective gain of 7 mod capacity, in the best case scenario 11 capacity if you were to change a polarity.

 

Each costs 20 platinum

 

Each is a daily login reward

 

All have been offered as special alerts

 

Forma can be obtained from the void

 

Forma uniquely is used in conjunction with/for the dojo (construction of pieces/weapons)

 

Math for warframe optimization if you were to try and build the best argument for forma:

However, even in your example

Forma -- 67 mod points = 200 platinum

Forma -- 62 mod points = 180 platinum (not changing one skill polarity)

Catalyst/reactor -- 30 mod points = 20 platinum

 

Forma in this case:

1 mod point = 2.98 platinum

1 mod point = 2.90 platinum (in my example of leaving 1 polarity for the skill, actually more efficient than yours and smarter for many reasons)

 

Catalyst/reactor:

1 mod point = .66 platinum

 

 

So....

Why does forma cost an equivalent of a Catalyst or Reactor when it achieves 1/4 the effect? 

Why can't 1 catalyst or reactor not facilitate the same function in the dojo as what 4 forma achieve?

Why is an item priced the same as other items which are more difficult/fewer opportunities/more restricted methods to obtain?

 

Bottom line, lower the price to reflect the appropriate price, or change how catalyst/reactors are interchangeable with forma in some format.  This means allowing catalyst/reactors to serve in the dojo at a conversion rate of at minimum 4 forma, or lowering the price on the market so that more forma can be purchased for the same platinum. 

Edited June 4, 2013 by Enot83

[Dtexas]

Forma is also used to build the new dojo weapons.

[Enot83]

Forma is also used to build the new dojo weapons.

 

Correct this is the "conjunction" part, but perhaps I should specify.

[Syllabea]

Forma allows for greater customization of your frames and weapons. Even with a Reactor/Catalyst equipped, with some mod combinations, you simply can't fit what you want on your Frame/Weapon. Forma allows you to fit everything.

[MetalGerbil]

honestly forma to catalyst is like comparing apples to a block of concert.

they only intersect on weapon and only to change build options. it never actively gives you more mod power.

if i put in the wrong polarity, would that be negative polarity? if i choose to remove polarity, would that be no gain? or a loss?

Edited June 3, 2013 by MetalGerbil

[winterau]

Forma is ultimately more flexible, but not the first place you should look to enhance your stuff.

 

Forma can also be ground out (very slowly) unlike potatoes.

[Kaidinah]

If forma has to be used all the time for everything, I think it should be cheaper.

[Enot83]

Forma allows for greater customization of your frames and weapons. Even with a Reactor/Catalyst equipped, with some mod combinations, you simply can't fit what you want on your Frame/Weapon. Forma allows you to fit everything.

It takes more forma to achieve the same thing as 1 catalyst or reactor.  Saying that a forma allows for certain combinations in conjunction with a catalyst/reactor means you must have the catalyst/reactor to achieve this.  Most mods do not take the maximum 15, as such in most cases even 4 forma will not perform the same as a single catalyst/reactor.  Lets assume for the moment however, that 4 forma could (which they can't) achieve the same thing as 1 catalyst/reactor, this is an equivalent of 4x the cost to achieve the same thing.

 

honestly forma to catalyst is like comparing apples to a block of concert.

they only intersect on weapon and only to change build options. it never actively gives you more mod power.

if i put in the wrong polarity, would that be negative polarity? if i choose to remove polarity, would that be no gain? or a loss?

So the counter argument is, doing something stupid with an item should void the argument of a best case scenario.  The only intersect is a major intersection, dismissing as a minor detail of what forma is just outright ignorance.  Lets play that game though.  What if it didn't affect weapons in any way shape or form.  Its still worth 20 plat at the current quantities required?  So you're saying its fine that a single dojo room is the equivalent of 20 bucks?

 

Forma is ultimately more flexible, but not the first place you should look to enhance your stuff.

 

Forma can also be ground out (very slowly) unlike potatoes.

It offers less at a higher cost on the market, its flexibility in regards to warframes and weapons is 1/4 at best to a reactor or catalyst.  The fact that they can be grinded for (very slowly) while the others can not, even furthers my point of then why are they priced identically.

[Neuhnee]

Because catalysts can only be applied once, giving a static gain of 30 mod points. As you can polarize your gear as many times as you want, Forma has a multiplicative value of up to +7per when applied to previously un-polarized slots. As slotting a mod in the wrong polarized slot yields a loss of %25, re-polarizing has a gain of up to +12per.

 

Assuming a Frame with four ability slots, one polarized slot, and five un polarized slots, re polerizing all five previously polarized slots and polarizing the five un polarized ones would give a possible total gain of 95 mod points in exchange for ten Forma.

 

No matter how many Catalysts you acquire they'll never add more than a one time gain of 30 mod points to an one piece of gear.

[TehLaggy]

Because catalysts can only be applied once, giving a static gain of 30 mod points. As you can polarize your gear as many times as you want, Forma has a multiplicative value of up to +7per when applied to previously un-polarized slots. As slotting a mod in the wrong polarized slot yields a loss of %25, re-polarizing has a gain of up to +12per.

 

Assuming a Frame with four ability slots, one polarized slot, and five un polarized slots, re polerizing all five previously polarized slots and polarizing the five un polarized ones would give a possible total gain of 95 mod points in exchange for ten Forma.

 

No matter how many Catalysts you acquire they'll never add more than a one time gain of 30 mod points to an one piece of gear.

 

This, but perhaps more to the point: forma is high-end min/maxing gear. You don't NEED to forma anything to make it effective (ignoring the dojo stuff, that's another issue entirely). Having your supertwinked equipment be pricy or difficult to get to makes sense - you're paying for a premium. Meanwhile potatoes are really important in making equipment viable at anything beyond early/midgame, so their relatively low price point for what they give makes sense.

[VScipii26]

The price is not the problem.

The PREVALENCE of it's usage is. Forma is simply used far too often in far too many things (A gosh darn hallway!) for it to be priced like this. The price would be fine if it was only used for ranking.

[Enot83]

Because catalysts can only be applied once, giving a static gain of 30 mod points. As you can polarize your gear as many times as you want, Forma has a multiplicative value of up to +7per when applied to previously un-polarized slots. As slotting a mod in the wrong polarized slot yields a loss of %25, re-polarizing has a gain of up to +12per.

 

Assuming a Frame with four ability slots, one polarized slot, and five un polarized slots, re polerizing all five previously polarized slots and polarizing the five un polarized ones would give a possible total gain of 95 mod points in exchange for ten Forma.

 

No matter how many Catalysts you acquire they'll never add more than a one time gain of 30 mod points to an one piece of gear.

 

First somewhat valid point so far, that in changing an existing polarity you factor in the gain of both not having that polarity but now the correct polarity.  Math is wrong however?  Its not 12 its 11.  If 14 being the highest being steel fiber and redirection.  14 * 1.25 = 17.5 rounded up 18.  If reduced to 7 with the correct polarity this is only 11 gained.

 

This also assumes that 5 slots would be the worst case scenario which is impossible.  2 would be 14, the next being 12, and 11 after that for the last 2 worst cases, this means again to show the correct figures, that you would have 11+11+9+8+8 = 47

 

The slots with no polarity would be filled with 9's normally, reduced to 5, seeing as how in your example you've used mods with capacity for all slots that don't exist in that quantity.  This means with 5 slots of 9 reduced.... 4+4+4+4+4 = 20

 

67 is the actual maximum mod capacity gained by redoing every single slot and removing skill slots.  Which actually leaving 1 skill slot alone would actually have given you a higher perfect modding if looking to maximize the mod capacity.

 

However, even in your example

Forma -- 67 mod points = 200 platinum

Forma -- 62 mod points = 180 platinum (not changing one skill polarity)

Catalyst/reactor -- 30 mod points = 20 platinum

 

Forma in this case:

1 mod point = 2.98 platinum

1 mod point = 2.90 platinum (in my example of leaving 1 polarity for the skill, actually more efficient than yours and smarter for many reasons)

 

Catalyst/reactor:

1 mod point = .66 platinum

 

I'll go on a limb here just from knowing the mod costs on weapons, that its going to show similar figures, especially since you're not going to need to replace any polarities on weapons with polarities.

 

So from your example, we have again seen, forma costs more than 4x as much and now restricts what you can put in that warframe to only match those polarities otherwise incurring additional costs.  So arguably it costs more and is more restrictive, completely the opposite of all arguments saying it gives more and allows for better customization.

 

Edit: Adjust the mods taking 9 capacity, originally had them granting 5 capacity, when they only give you an additional 4 due to rounding.

 

 

This, but perhaps more to the point: forma is high-end min/maxing gear. You don't NEED to forma anything to make it effective (ignoring the dojo stuff, that's another issue entirely). Having your supertwinked equipment be pricy or difficult to get to makes sense - you're paying for a premium. Meanwhile potatoes are really important in making equipment viable at anything beyond early/midgame, so their relatively low price point for what they give makes sense.

Forma is easier to get than reactors/catalysts, forma performs lower than reactors and catalysts for the quantity required.  You're not paying for a premium, you're paying for something inferior and easier to get.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Enot83

[Neuhnee]

I used a theoretical 15 point mod for each of the ten slots and assumed that Forma was used on all ten slots to show the maximum *possible* gain, not the most likely

 

*edit. My apologies, I'm doing some separate work with Serration, and I thought Redirection went up to 15. But 14 being the highest mod value equippible, we have to assume each unpolarized slot has a potential maximum value of 14 to accurately gauge the value of repolarization. Ergo, with the adjusted value of the mods, the previous example of a frame with 5 polarized slots would stand to gain a potential maximum of 90 mod points from 10 bits of Forma

 

The most *likley* outcome is that most people will *add* 2 polarization slots to frames, spending 2 Forma and resulting in a potential total gain of 14 mod points

Edited June 4, 2013 by Neuhnee

[Enot83]

I used a theoretical 15 point mod for each of the ten slots and assumed that Forma was used on all ten slots to show the maximum *possible* gain, not the most likely

 

Your math was wrong, 15 would not get the figure you got.  It is also impossible for all slots to be considered this way due to current limitations.  Either way, your information has been taken into consideration and I did the effort to actually make it relevant to the thread.

 

The most *likley* outcome is that most people will *add* 2 polarization slots to frames, spending 2 Forma and resulting in a potential total gain of 14 mod points

 

40 platinum, for 14 points.

vs

20 platinum, for 30 points.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Enot83

[Neuhnee]

The *edit - potential* points are still there, even if you don't use them. It's a mathematical model, not an actual tweaking guide. No body's going to polarize away all four of their abilities, and none of us know what mods may be released in the future or what their cost will be

Edited June 4, 2013 by Neuhnee

[Enot83]

The points are still there, even if you don't use them. It's a mathematical model, not an actual tweaking guide. No body's going to polarize away all four of their abilities, and none of us know what mods may be released in the future or what their cost will be

 

I used your model and showed how it is still flawed.  Unless multiple mods, using 20+  are released, the point still stands, in addition you also assume that the mod polarities chosen would work for those released, catalyst/reactors ignore which polarity and they are more flexible and give you more per platinum spent.  Like I said once, the information you provided was wrong, I corrected it and applied it on your benefit because you did bring up the fact that using the wrong polarity vs the right polarity.  Even so, in the worst possible case, the platinum to mod cap is still in favor of the reactor/catalyst, reinforcing what I have stated all along that the comparison shows that reactors and catalyst are better for the money spent.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Enot83

[BadAimbot]

The price is not the problem.

The PREVALENCE of it's usage is. Forma is simply used far too often in far too many things (A gosh darn hallway!) for it to be priced like this. The price would be fine if it was only used for ranking.

 

This is my issue with it. Potatoes serve one purpose and they do it well. Forma serve many purposes and all of them are not as impactful. Each individual use doesn't feel as good as what a Potato will do for you.

[Neuhnee]

You have to allow each slot the possibility of the maximum value for a correct model because of situations like this;

 

Let's say you have three mods. Two of them have a value of 8, and the third has a value of 10, this gives us a total value of 26. Now, your assumption is that we're going to spend a single bit of Forma and polarize a single slot to accommodate the single largest value, which in this case would give us a reduced value of 8+8+(10/2) = 21. However, if we were to in fact spend two bits of forma to instead accommodate the two smaller values, we end up with (8/2)+(8/2)+10 = 18, in fact a lower value. We have to assume that each slot has the *potential* to reach the maximum value in order account for all possible combinations

[ShockTart]

forma does a great many things. but for the amount of stuff it is used for stuff like building dojo rooms where they can cost between 5-75 forma. i think it should come up in alerts and drop in void runs a little more frequently than they currently have it set at.

[Enot83]

You have to allow each slot the possibility of the maximum value for a correct model because of situations like this;

 

Let's say you have three mods. Two of them have a value of 8, and the third has a value of 10, this gives us a total value of 26. Now, your assumption is that we're going to spend a single bit of Forma and polarize a single slot to accommodate the single largest value, which in this case would give us a reduced value of 8+8+(10/2) = 21. However, if we were to in fact spend two bits of forma to instead accommodate the two smaller values, we end up with (8/2)+(8/2)+10 = 18, in fact a lower value. We have to assume that each slot has the *potential* to reach the maximum value in order account for all possible combinations

 

It is clear by this why you do not comprehend what is being discussed.

[IspanoLFW1]

You have to allow each slot the possibility of the maximum value for a correct model because of situations like this;

 

Let's say you have three mods. Two of them have a value of 8, and the third has a value of 10, this gives us a total value of 26. Now, your assumption is that we're going to spend a single bit of Forma and polarize a single slot to accommodate the single largest value, which in this case would give us a reduced value of 8+8+(10/2) = 21. However, if we were to in fact spend two bits of forma to instead accommodate the two smaller values, we end up with (8/2)+(8/2)+10 = 18, in fact a lower value. We have to assume that each slot has the *potential* to reach the maximum value in order account for all possible combinations

 

You only have to assume so if there are mods that can do so. Which in this case, there are not. There are only two mods totally for Frames that even go to 14. In the future there might be more, but right now there is no data to support it. Potential means nothing if there are no mods in existence to use it.

[Neuhnee]

You know what Enot, you've made a believer out of me. You're absolutely right, a Catalyst yields a gain of 30 mod points, while even in the most generous situation Forma only yields 7. I'm going to see if I can get a refund on the two Forma I've already used and just put a second Catalysts on my Frame.

[IspanoLFW1]

You know what Enot, you've made a believer out of me. You're absolutely right, a Catalyst yields a gain of 30 mod points, while even in the most generous situation Forma only yields 7. I'm going to see if I can get a refund on the two Forma I've already used and just put a second Catalysts on my Frame.

 

The sarcasm isn't helping you here. Nor is the obvious ignorance. Even not being able to put two Catalysts or Reactors in, it is still a clearly better value point for point. The 30 point gain is also less restrictive. This is simple fact.

[kaizoku222]

The sarcasm isn't helping you here. Nor is the obvious ignorance. Even not being able to put two Catalysts or Reactors in, it is still a clearly better value point for point. The 30 point gain is also less restrictive. This is simple fact.

This.

 

30 mod points is the SINGLE LARGEST boost to character potency in the entire game by an absurdly large margin, it is also the most immediate and least restrictive. Pay for a potato and you can instantly double the potency of a given weapon or frame regardless of what level it is currently at scaling all the way to level 30. Potatoes are the most valuable upgrade in the game. In contrast forma is a resource component, requires that you level an item to 30 before it can be used each time, and at its  absolute best involving a 15 point mod in a newly polarized slot will give you a total of 7 mod points to work with. In no universe is 7 larger than 30, and the return on forma gets lower as you use it as there are only two weapon mods that cost 15 points to use.

 

You would have to level an item to 30 and use a forma 5 times polarizing 5 mods costing 15 points (and remember, only 2 exist)  to get the potency of *one* potato. Even if forma was only used to polarize it still would not be as valuable at potatoes, and it is required in high quantities in about everything clan related. This is elementary school math, if you graduated high school you have zero reason to think forma should be more expensive than a catalyst.

[Nehmetawy]

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Tnargraef/Forma:_and_how_to_swing_it'>Original Post

 

Forma is one of the newest items to warframe. It is used for doing a great deal of things to extend the playtime of the player. The amount of effort required in obtaining Forma for the amount of uses it has tends to obscure what the goal is.

 

* For five dollars you can buy 75 Platinum.

* Forma costs 20 Platinum.

* You get 3.25 Forma for five dollars.

* Forma in this equation is about $1.54 each.

 

Now let us review the cost of a weapon from the Market:

 

* 143 is the average Platinum Cost of a weapon from the market.

* For ten dollars you receive 170 Platinum.

* You get about 1.2 Weapons per ten dollars.

* Each weapon costs about $8.34 average.

 

Now you do get a weapon slot, which is 6 Platinum, and a Orokin Catalyst, which is 20 platinum, each time you purchase a weapon for platinum. You save 26 Platinum every time you buy a weapon from the market which is about $1.72.

 

Now we examine the uses of Forma.

 

* Forma is used in crafting the new Clan Weapons.

* Even though you can only use a Forma once, you can polarize weapons and warframes an infinite amount times as long as you have the Forma.

* Forma is used to expand the Clan Dojo.

 

Now we examine an item with a similar cost the Orokin Catalyst:

 

* Is used to upgrade any weapon crafted or obtained not through a market purchase.

 

There is a large difference between the two. There are approximately 75 weapons in the game currently. This means you would need 75 Catalysts to apply one to every weapon if it was crafted.

 

* There are many polarity slots to a weapon. If you were to apply a Forma to every slot, you would need Forma per slot you wanted to modify. There are some weapons that have at least one polarity slot which would reduce this.

* Warframes also can use Forma like weapons.

* The Basic Clan Research setup currently requires 75 Forma.

* The alpha Clan Weapons require one forma each for crafting.

 

==Compromise==

How do I propose a compromise in making Forma valuable to be bought, and valuable to earn?

 

The Cost of 20 Platinum would be a great cost if it was used in the same dynamic as Catalysts and Reactors, but it's used in a great deal more. Since you need more of them, the demand for them is higher. The low supply of Forma from Orokin Void missions, Alert Missions, and the daily login rewards make players look to other ways to obtain Forma. The only other way they can get the supply they need is from the market.

 

Players look at the fact they can only get 3 Forma, when they really want more, for five dollars as bad. Why? Because they want more.

 

Players should keep playing, and Forma does that. To make players play longer, give them more. What I propose firstly is that the market purchase provides four Forma. Keep in mind, players have to spend at least five dollars to buy a single set of these. The idea is that the player gets Forma for their Primary, Secondary, Melee, and Warframe. They will then level these up again and buy Forma again to add more to themselves. It takes about one to two weeks for a player to reach 30. By even doing this once, you have made your player play your game for longer.

 

For those who don't wish to pay, you still want to support them. You want to let them know you care, but you can also make their life easy if they only spend a few dollars. Allow players who have successfully leveled at least four items, weapons or warframes, to thirty to participate in a mission that can be performed weekly for one Forma Blueprint. This allows players to progress over time, but doesn't make it easy. It will be much easier to simply buy Forma over earning it still.

 

With as much as Forma can be used, this would greatly make you question what is worth more of your time? Five dollars where I can get Forma and other things I want? Or do I want to get a blueprint, get the materials, and to wait twenty-four hours to apply the forma to re-level my weapon up while I wait on my next piece to do it again next week?