I'm Begging You De....

[Suisui]

I find that some enemies still overlook my decoy even though it is in plain sight. 

[AoxxAaron]

When was this patch made? I was aiming for Loki but I guess I'll say RIP to him as well. I hope in the near future thos gets reverted.

[PachTrick]

Although I prefer not to nerf/fix Decoy, I think it's ok to nerf/fix it in this way. 

However, they should buff the HP and shield of the Decoy as now it dies too quickly in higher level maps.

 

I think Switch Teleport is being nerved to the ground because there is no reason to upgrade it if you can use it in the air.

You could jump, kick, or roll in air to compensate the lack of range before.

However, we don't have any reason to upgrade it, still, as it doesn't help fighting.

It may be nice for getting through the terrain but it's just junk most of the time.

I suggest to add a stun ability to this skill in order to make it useful.

 

Actually I think it's hard to balance Loki's attributes and abilities as Loki will be OPed if he is too smart to easily fool all the enemies but he will be too weak if he cannot, so all they can do is to nerf and buff and nerf and buff in order to look for feedback from players.

[Ced23Ric]

Decoy was used in abusive ways, by putting him on boxes or hide him close to walls, where the AI could not damage him. Now the AI ignores what she cannot reach. Decoy still works, just cannot abuse it anymore. Maybe the fine-tuning of the AI determining if Decoy is attackable/approachable needs to be tweaked. Does that mean that the entire frame is broken?

 

Hardly. Works just fine.

 

PS: I play Loki, polarized 4 times. Has been my starting frame with the reset and got me Ember, Saryn, Frost Prime into the oven.

[NexionSE]

maybe some changes?

- well a max dmg taken cap per hit could help decoy survive at higher lvls more then 2 secs if there is posibility for a thing like that

 

- and for ST an smal aoe stun around both points would make it very usefull

[X3Evanescence]

Loki is UP.

Even more than Rhino.

What's the meaning of being the fastest warframe if your enemies can pin-point you just as well as the jogging-and-laughing Frost?

Decoy can't do jackS#&$, even on early defense wave. Past wave 15, it takes about 2 seconds for them to destroy your Decoy.

Invisiblity require you to go up-and-close for the pain. AoE enemies still hit you. Your max hp/shield (unless modded, of course) is 225. 

Which mean you're #*($%%@ if some toxin/Shockwave MOA decides to stand near you.

Teleport?

WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THAT?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER!

Anyway, as the very least radical disarms is still a little useful for high tier enemies...

 

Not to mention that the enemies have aimbot.

[X3Evanescence]

Congratulations you have officially made Loki the most useless warframe in the game!

 

Edit: Decoy's survivability. If that can be worked, Loki might still stand a chance. Hang in there Loki..

Edited June 7, 2013 by X3Evanescence

[Deadly-Bagel]

Decoy is probably bugged, but at any rate the longetivity is severely cut short by it's pathetic health. It's no surprise people were putting it in stupid places.

 

IMO Decoy should be a time limited thing with no HP (it's a hologram anyway right?) and put it back to the old ways. This prevents that sort of abuse while still making it a useful ability.

 

Switch Teleport, honestly I've never had a problem with. Yeah I used it to rile up one of my mates but all in good humour.

 

Invisibility is a versatile move that makes up for Loki's pathetic health and shield, if you think it's OP then maybe nerf the damage boost a bit.

 

Radial Disarm is just... useless. Most enemies do more melee damage and to boot have stun over their ranged attacks, would take Chaos over it in a heartbeat.

 

Bottom line? Loki was a bit underpowered before, and to fix a few exploits is now very underpowered. Only redeeming feature is invisibility, but that's not enough to stop it getting taken of my list of frames to get.

 

I started with Loki and sold him to free up a slot. I was going to get him again but now... why? I'd sooner take Rhino with IS (even nerfed) and my Hate than use invisibility, as even Rhino's useless other three skills sound better than Loki's.

[Ivalician]

Ya know not pour salt in the wounds of anyone that played the game but in Mass Effect 3's multiplayer they did the same thing to the decoy skill of that game and they never fixed it. It soon became one of the most useless skills and the characters who had were largely considered bottom tier. I'd hate to see this happen in this game too. The devs had clear favorites when it came to classes in that game, I hope we don't see the same trend here.

 

People abuse abilities all the time, don't ruin the character for other players because of what a few are doing, that's never fun. 

 

EDIT: Apparently there was an note in the build section about the Decoy nerf. 

Edited June 7, 2013 by Ivalician

[Tyroki]

I honestly don't see the problem with spamming abilities. I mean, isn't that the point of caster frames?

 

While Radial Disarm is still quite ho-hum, it does have some interesting extra abilities. Perhaps they could make it more useful through a few more?

[Ivalician]

Decoy was used in abusive ways, by putting him on boxes or hide him close to walls, where the AI could not damage him. Now the AI ignores what she cannot reach. Decoy still works, just cannot abuse it anymore. Maybe the fine-tuning of the AI determining if Decoy is attackable/approachable needs to be tweaked. Does that mean that the entire frame is broken?

 

Hardly. Works just fine.

 

PS: I play Loki, polarized 4 times. Has been my starting frame with the reset and got me Ember, Saryn, Frost Prime into the oven.

Yeah you guys really need to take a look at what the AI determines as "unreachable". Had a Loki player today who had to give up on trying Decoy and just use Invisibility because they would just ignore Decoy and keep running at him. Kinda defeats the purpose doesn't it?

[kaizoku222]

Decoy was used in abusive ways, by putting him on boxes or hide him close to walls, where the AI could not damage him. Now the AI ignores what she cannot reach. Decoy still works, just cannot abuse it anymore. Maybe the fine-tuning of the AI determining if Decoy is attackable/approachable needs to be tweaked. Does that mean that the entire frame is broken?

 

Hardly. Works just fine.

 

PS: I play Loki, polarized 4 times. Has been my starting frame with the reset and got me Ember, Saryn, Frost Prime into the oven.

 

It's good to know that when players get creative, devs will see it as abuse and try to prevent it's use instead of trying to compensate for it with design. People are obviously having problems with dropping it right in the middle of a crowd and it not functioning like it should, it's also made of paper and the only reason it was viable to begin with was that the player could be creative with it, you know, like some sort of magical trickster that outwits its prey rather than taking it head on.

 

The "It works for me guys" is really unbecoming from a community mod.

[FlamingSquirrel]

Decoy was used in abusive ways, by putting him on boxes or hide him close to walls, where the AI could not damage him. Now the AI ignores what she cannot reach. Decoy still works, just cannot abuse it anymore. Maybe the fine-tuning of the AI determining if Decoy is attackable/approachable needs to be tweaked. Does that mean that the entire frame is broken?

 

Hardly. Works just fine.

 

PS: I play Loki, polarized 4 times. Has been my starting frame with the reset and got me Ember, Saryn, Frost Prime into the oven.

 

Sorry, but that's simply false.

 

The AI does not ignore what she can't reach. She ignores it often if it's just around a corner. She ignores it often if it's out in plain sight. Sometimes it works like it used to, and it'll redirect an entire horde or stop them from doing anything for it's entire duration.

 

This is the problem, it's not consistent. You cannot say to yourself: "I'll place a decoy here and it will have this effect."

Now, it is utterly random. You stick a decoy down and pray that it has a favourable effect. RNG is fine handling loot, but it should not come into play with a warframe's abilities. It's quite possible to die not because you did anything wrong, but for some reason your decoy decided not to work that time.

 

As for the Loki being 'broken'. Well, the problem there is that it's not just this issue with decoy. It's the invisible box around them that blocks fire due to some game-mechanic anomoly. It's the fact that we can't use Invisibility without getting our sentinel killed. It's Switch Teleport also being nerfed, to the point where it is now so situational, you're better of just using another mod. As for Radial disarm, well, it can be useful, but it's range is a bit weaksauce. Combine with all this with the fact that this warframe has the worst stats, and no offensive abilities.

 

So, is Loki 'broken'? Well, no one has used the word broken, except you. It's not broken, but it's now weak as hell compared to pretty much every other frame.

 

Oh, and LOL @ community mod saying 'Loki is fine' when there are threads popping up every day asking for DE to fix this and that, or asking for the abilities and balance to be looked at. Of course, all we've got since asking for fixes is badly implemented nerfs to two of our four abilities.

[Notso]

It's good to know that when players get creative, devs will see it as abuse and try to prevent it's use instead of trying to compensate for it with design. People are obviously having problems with dropping it right in the middle of a crowd and it not functioning like it should, it's also made of paper and the only reason it was viable to begin with was that the player could be creative with it, you know, like some sort of magical trickster that outwits its prey rather than taking it head on.

 

The "It works for me guys" is really unbecoming from a community mod.

This thread was made before the hotfix to change how the AI views Decoy. The majority of complaints are from before it. Note I am by no means saying it isn't also broken at the moment, I don't know. But aside from that, the more important point is that putting the Decoy in places where the AI cannot damage it is abusing the power. Yes, it's creative, but when it lasts forever that's abuse. It's like the infinite Vortex glitch, when it comes down to it.

Now I do know that this problem was created by DE changing it from a time limit to HP, but that doesn't stop it being abuse.

[Scoosh]

Agreed Decoy was perhaps too overpowered but the fact it was only usable by a glitch is no use and it should have been buffed in some way to compensate for the way people were using it. Now nobody is going to use it as it doesn't act as a Decoy. I hope it gets buffed,Kaizoku222 said it best:

 

 

kaizoku222 Posted Yesterday, 07:01 PM

 

It's good to know that when players get creative, devs will see it as abuse and try to prevent it's use instead of trying to compensate for it with design. People are obviously having problems with dropping it right in the middle of a crowd and it not functioning like it should, it's also made of paper and the only reason it was viable to begin with was that the player could be creative with it, you know, like some sort of magical trickster that outwits its prey rather than taking it head on.

 

The "It works for me guys" is really unbecoming from a community mod.

[Mazrim]

All I see is "BAWW, MY INSTAWIN BUTTON ISN'T INSTAWIN."

Rather then fight dumber, and brute force you way through Defense with a Loki frame, fight smarter. I already figured out where to position Decoys and when to attract the ENTIRETY of Xini defense waves except for some outliers. Its up to your team to abuse that calm in the rush to greatest effect.

But hey, better to QQ rather then think, amirite?

[FlamingSquirrel]

All I see is "BAWW, MY INSTAWIN BUTTON ISN'T INSTAWIN."

Rather then fight dumber, and brute force you way through Defense with a Loki frame, fight smarter. I already figured out where to position Decoys and when to attract the ENTIRETY of Xini defense waves except for some outliers. Its up to your team to abuse that calm in the rush to greatest effect.

But hey, better to QQ rather then think, amirite?

 

LOL. Pro player here. ^

You can put a decoy almost anywhere on the platform in Xini and it'll draw the attention of pretty much all of the enemies. You've already figured that one out? Truly, you must be a master strategist.

 

Xini is the worst possible example of decoy working/not working. I can solo Xini past wave 10 with a Gram without using decoy at all. Honestly, do you think Xini is some kind of uber level when only the best of the best can achieve success? There's a reason people love to farm infested, Xini in particular. It's because it's an easy as hell tier III defence mission.

 

Why don't you try pitting your non-scaling decoy against lvl 40-50 corpus? Where a single MOA can kill it in within 3 seconds of firing. Making it useless vs groups (which is the only time you'd ever want it). Or perhaps against almost lvl 100 enemies in the void? I doubt you ever got that far. You were too busy patting yourself on the back for 4-manning Xini, which is effortless to solo with low level frames/weapons.

 

Honestly, if you're going to make a post essentially saying 'learn to play', perhaps you should try to reveal less of your own lack of experience.

[Ced23Ric]

Yeah you guys really need to take a look at what the AI determines as "unreachable".

 

Can't take a look at anything, I am not a DE employee. I am a player just like you. I did forward the complaints, though. I am usually quite at the pulse of these things, checking them myself, gathering feedback and gauging community impact. Once I have a clear picture, I forward it to the bosslady.

 

It's good to know that when players get creative, devs will see it as abuse and try to prevent it's use instead of trying to compensate for it with design.

 

The "It works for me guys" is really unbecoming from a community mod.

 

I can make use of the Decoy in its current state. I can have an opinion on a matter, even if it doesn't agree with you. I also forwarded to DE that the last design change to Decoy fixes the abuse without addressing the reason for it. If Decoy would not die as quickly, people would not have to find workarounds to make Decoy more viable. Design should look into a n exclusively timed approach over a health-pool approach, so Decoy can be put anywhere without pathfinding abuse. Causing the AI to stop or to do irrational actions is a simple abuse within the game's means. No two ways about it.

 

The abuse part was addressed - but not the reason why this abuse was so commonplace. Nevertheless, Decoy still attracts enemies. It just dies fast.

 

As for the Loki being 'broken'. Well, the problem there is that it's not just this issue with decoy. It's the invisible box around them that blocks fire due to some game-mechanic anomoly. It's the fact that we can't use Invisibility without getting our sentinel killed. It's Switch Teleport also being nerfed, to the point where it is now so situational, you're better of just using another mod. As for Radial disarm, well, it can be useful, but it's range is a bit weaksauce. Combine with all this with the fact that this warframe has the worst stats, and no offensive abilities.

 

So, is Loki 'broken'? Well, no one has used the word broken, except you. It's not broken, but it's now weak as hell compared to pretty much every other frame.

 

Oh, and LOL @ community mod saying 'Loki is fine' when there are threads popping up every day asking for DE to fix this and that, or asking for the abilities and balance to be looked at. Of course, all we've got since asking for fixes is badly implemented nerfs to two of our four abilities.

 

Seeing Loki as weak and squishy and looking at his statsline is something I still cannot fully understand. It's like rating a F1 car on its armour thickness and firepower. Of course Loki cannot murder thousands with a push of a button. Of course he cannot facetank Vay Hek till kingdom come. Loki can go invis, pop a Decoy, stab things in the back for tremendous damage, switch into a group of firing mobs and disarm them and switch back, can turn ranged enemies into melees regardless of level and can get people across hard terrain in no time. Loki is a backstabber/melee DD and utility. It's a different playstyle from Excalibur's [1], [1], [1], [1] or the [4] spam of AoE frames. Loki is about picking a target, getting in as long as you can stand the fire, pop back out to recover, pick a next one, while keeping your team alive through distraction and teleports.

 

But I feel like I will be ripped apart for this, too. ;)

__

 

In general, ComMods are no DE employees, don't get paid or compensated by DE, have no benefits, file support tickets like everyone else and do this as volunteers. We are players, just like you guys, and we play the same game you guys play. No secret test servers, no Loki Prime, no dev chat, no endless Plat, nothing. We pay to do this, if you will. And thusly, we are as much entitled to have opinions as you guys are. And my opinion is that Decoy needs to be looked at, be changed towards invincible, but on a timer, and Loki, the frame, still works fine as a concept.

 

Hope this clears things up a little.

[InFlames]

you guys are playing Loki the wrong way.

nuff said.

[InFlames]

Seeing Loki as weak and squishy and looking at his statsline is something I still cannot fully understand. It's like rating a F1 car on its armour thickness and firepower. Of course Loki cannot murder thousands with a push of a button. Of course he cannot facetank Vay Hek till kingdom come. Loki can go invis, pop a Decoy, stab things in the back for tremendous damage, switch into a group of firing mobs and disarm them and switch back, can turn ranged enemies into melees regardless of level and can get people across hard terrain in no time. Loki is a backstabber/melee DD and utility. It's a different playstyle from Excalibur's [1], [1], [1], [1] or the [4] spam of AoE frames. Loki is about picking a target, getting in as long as you can stand the fire, pop back out to recover, pick a next one, while keeping your team alive through distraction and teleports.

 

But I feel like I will be ripped apart for this, too. ;)

 

QFT

[Mazrim]

LOL. Pro player here. ^

You can put a decoy almost anywhere on the platform in Xini and it'll draw the attention of pretty much all of the enemies. You've already figured that one out? Truly, you must be a master strategist.

 

Xini is the worst possible example of decoy working/not working. I can solo Xini past wave 10 with a Gram without using decoy at all. Honestly, do you think Xini is some kind of uber level when only the best of the best can achieve success? There's a reason people love to farm infested, Xini in particular. It's because it's an easy as hell tier III defence mission.

 

Why don't you try pitting your non-scaling decoy against lvl 40-50 corpus? Where a single MOA can kill it in within 3 seconds of firing. Making it useless vs groups (which is the only time you'd ever want it). Or perhaps against almost lvl 100 enemies in the void? I doubt you ever got that far. You were too busy patting yourself on the back for 4-manning Xini, which is effortless to solo with low level frames/weapons.

 

Honestly, if you're going to make a post essentially saying 'learn to play', perhaps you should try to reveal less of your own lack of experience.

-------------

Point of my post.

Your head.

[Morrowsong]

The lack of aggro on Decoy makes me feel that I don't bring anything at all to groups outside of base weapon damage. No crowd control (even single mobs seem to run directly past Decoy or hit it for about 2 seconds and then ignore it).

Invisibility is handy to escape a tight situation, but other frames would do this my making themselves immune to damage or instant killing all the trash so it isn't OP.

Surely there is a better fix for Decoy's being placed on boxes than removing the key means of battlefield control from a frame that was designed for battlefield manipulation. I've noticed all my guildies have stopped using Loki and they are far less common on PUGs since Decoy was rendered ineffective. I don't think that is coincidental...

[FlamingSquirrel]

 

LOL. Pro player here. ^

You can put a decoy almost anywhere on the platform in Xini and it'll draw the attention of pretty much all of the enemies. You've already figured that one out? Truly, you must be a master strategist.

 

Xini is the worst possible example of decoy working/not working. I can solo Xini past wave 10 with a Gram without using decoy at all. Honestly, do you think Xini is some kind of uber level when only the best of the best can achieve success? There's a reason people love to farm infested, Xini in particular. It's because it's an easy as hell tier III defence mission.

 

Why don't you try pitting your non-scaling decoy against lvl 40-50 corpus? Where a single MOA can kill it in within 3 seconds of firing. Making it useless vs groups (which is the only time you'd ever want it). Or perhaps against almost lvl 100 enemies in the void? I doubt you ever got that far. You were too busy patting yourself on the back for 4-manning Xini, which is effortless to solo with low level frames/weapons.

 

Honestly, if you're going to make a post essentially saying 'learn to play', perhaps you should try to reveal less of your own lack of experience.

-------------

Point of my post.

Your head.

 

 

There was no point in your post, except to say 'learn to play' because YOU believed that decoy working on XINI meant it was fine.

Basically, you embarrassed yourself by publicly patting yourself on the back for accomplishing a feat that every other Loki player considers to be a cakewalk.

 

That particular defence map is extremely weak to decoy. I'm currently farming Narcissus, Pluto endless defence (Corpus 37-53) solo for Master thief at the moment, precisely because it's so easy to use Decoy to send enemies on a wild goose chase there.

Just because Decoy is extremely effective on ONE endless defence mission doesn't mean that it's not borked almost everywhere else.

 

If the point of your post was, as you say, above my head. Then explain the point that I missed. It's hard to find meaning in a short post that pretty much just said, 'LOL, you're all noobs. I'm pro and can make Decoy work on Xini. /flex'.