My Post-Cooldown-Update Rushing Exploits And A Public Apology

[RyojinOrion]

Ah, well now everything makes sense. You see, the issue here is that you're not playing the game DE is producing.

 

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize DE isn't producing Warframe. My mistake.

[Lumireaver]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize DE isn't producing Warframe. My mistake.

 

You're advocating "play styles" which entail deliberately taking advantage of mechanics and behaviors which have not been finalized in a game which is still under development. (This is what "beta" means. While this means it's possible that changes like this one could be reverted for one reason or another, given that we have plenty of reason to believe these particular exploits have been patched for very specific reasons, such a possibility unlikely.) Anyway, these advantages which would appear to be unforeseen and undesirable with respect to direction DE would like to take Warframe.

 

So basically you're not playing Warframe, as it is currently being designed. I know. It's so presumptuous, it's crazy.

[Retni]

I'm a frost with a maxed out Rush mod and I do just fine, it's mostly a mixture of sprinting and slide melee though. Having Rush and Quick Rest definitely help, I wouldn't want to try to keep up without them.

 

Can't say I agree with the slide change, it doesn't really help anything in terms of people rushing.

[Winterbraid]

Rather than having been targeted specifically at rushers, I'd risk a guess that the sliding hotfix was meant to encourage people to actually invest into the mobility-related modules - Rush, Quick Rest, Marathon, and the new wall run efficiency mod. Those mods used to be pretty much redundant as everyone just spammed slide to move about quickly while conserving their stamina.

 

I still don't think this is a good direction however, and I think it indicates a bigger problem with the game mechanics in general. Filling yourself up with stamina mods means you have to give up some other mods that could improve your survivability, your abilities, or your tactical awareness. And I believe that in a game that emphasizes speed and mobility as much as Warframe does, mobility shouldn't be build-dependent to such an extent.

 

In fact, in any cooperative game that involves more or less free progression through a more or less linear environment, and potentially penalizes players for failing to keep up with the majority of the team - in no such game can I think of any possible situation where allowing one player - depending on their build - to be physically 10%, 30%, or even 50% faster than another player would be a good idea, and I encourage anyone to show me an example to the contrary.

 

Now obviously slide spam wasn't a magical solution to that issue. But at least it helped alleviate it somewhat by introducing a factor of experience (if not skill) to the effective mobility. It allowed more experienced players with (very rare) modules such as Flow, Focus, Streamline or Continuity to catch up with less experienced players using the (easier to obtain) stamina and speed modules. Two things I've immediately noticed since the latest patch is that a) I feel noticeably slower overall, and b) while in public games, the gap between the slower players/warframes and the faster ones seems to have increased considerably.

 

 

 

Wall running is a whole separate issue. I personally feel it's currently way too fiddly and unpredictable to be used effectively by the vast majority of players sans the precious few spots that were specifically designed for wall running (and in some cases even indicated by slide marks). Let's say you run up to a random not-perfectly-flat wall and attempt to initiate a wall run. What happens?

 

Sometimes you will just keep jogging alongside or into the wall. Sometimes you will jump and bounce helplessly off the wall, or land on a tiny bit of collider somewhere in the middle. Sometimes you will initiate a horizontal wall run, another time a vertical wall run.

 

Let's say you wanted a horizontal wall run and actually managed to get a horizontal wall run. You will then continue for a while (assuming you don't run into another tiny bit of collider, this time vertical) and eventually run into a corner, bump, door, window, etc.. What next? One time you will just come to a sudden stop and drop off. Another time you will make a turn and continue wall-running along the next wall as long as your stamina allows. Yet another time you will be propelled at a high speed in a hard-to-predict direction, usually sending you crashing into the opposite wall, plunging into abyss, or - worst case - trapping you permanently outside the level.

 

And what if you get a vertical wall run? One time, you will run up the wall for a while and then bump into a collider or just seemingly run out of juice and proceed to slowly slide downwards. Another time you will seamlessly make a 90 degree  turn and continue running on the surface above, yet another time you will also make a 90 degree turn but jump over the top instead. Another time you will just drop off the top as if in an aborted jump attempt, or somersault away from the wall (and, curiously, roll back *towards* the wall upon landing).

 

In the light of my wall running woes, the floor sliding mechanic seems to refreshingly do what I expect it to do most of the time - and even has an actual tactical use, both in rapidly closing the distance and in combination with the melee attack. I'd gladly blame it on my own ineptitude, but the problem seems more wide-spread than that - while I see people sliding all the time, I never, ever, see people wall run outside the designated wall run spots, let alone use wall running tactically, and I don't think slowing down slide will change that.

 

Unlike slide, wall run just isn't very useful - it makes it very hard to shoot anything, it doesn't make yourself harder to shoot at (and neither do sprinting, sliding or rolling, but that's yet another issue), and it's hard to predict where you will end up.

[Mietz]

Rather than having been targeted specifically at rushers, I'd risk a guess that the sliding hotfix was meant to encourage people to actually invest into the mobility-related modules - Rush, Quick Rest, Marathon, and the new wall run efficiency mod. Those mods used to be pretty much redundant as everyone just spammed slide to move about quickly while conserving their stamina.

 

I still don't think this is a good direction however, and I think it indicates a bigger problem with the game mechanics in general. Filling yourself up with stamina mods means you have to give up some other mods that could improve your survivability, your abilities, or your tactical awareness. And I believe that in a game that emphasizes speed and mobility as much as Warframe does, mobility shouldn't be build-dependent to such an extent.

 

In fact, in any cooperative game that involves more or less free progression through a more or less linear environment, and potentially penalizes players for failing to keep up with the majority of the team - in no such game can I think of any possible situation where allowing one player - depending on their build - to be physically 10%, 30%, or even 50% faster than another player would be a good idea, and I encourage anyone to show me an example to the contrary.

 

Now obviously slide spam wasn't a magical solution to that issue. But at least it helped alleviate it somewhat by introducing a factor of experience (if not skill) to the effective mobility. It allowed more experienced players with (very rare) modules such as Flow, Focus, Streamline or Continuity to catch up with less experienced players using the (easier to obtain) stamina and speed modules. Two things I've immediately noticed since the latest patch is that a) I feel noticeably slower overall, and b) while in public games, the gap between the slower players/warframes and the faster ones seems to have increased considerably.

 

 

 

Wall running is a whole separate issue. I personally feel it's currently way too fiddly and unpredictable to be used effectively by the vast majority of players sans the precious few spots that were specifically designed for wall running (and in some cases even indicated by slide marks). Let's say you run up to a random not-perfectly-flat wall and attempt to initiate a wall run. What happens?

 

Sometimes you will just keep jogging alongside or into the wall. Sometimes you will jump and bounce helplessly off the wall, or land on a tiny bit of collider somewhere in the middle. Sometimes you will initiate a horizontal wall run, another time a vertical wall run.

 

Let's say you wanted a horizontal wall run and actually managed to get a horizontal wall run. You will then continue for a while (assuming you don't run into another tiny bit of collider, this time vertical) and eventually run into a corner, bump, door, window, etc.. What next? One time you will just come to a sudden stop and drop off. Another time you will make a turn and continue wall-running along the next wall as long as your stamina allows. Yet another time you will be propelled at a high speed in a hard-to-predict direction, usually sending you crashing into the opposite wall, plunging into abyss, or - worst case - trapping you permanently outside the level.

 

And what if you get a vertical wall run? One time, you will run up the wall for a while and then bump into a collider or just seemingly run out of juice and proceed to slowly slide downwards. Another time you will seamlessly make a 90 degree  turn and continue running on the surface above, yet another time you will also make a 90 degree turn but jump over the top instead. Another time you will just drop off the top as if in an aborted jump attempt, or somersault away from the wall (and, curiously, roll back *towards* the wall upon landing).

 

In the light of my wall running woes, the floor sliding mechanic seems to refreshingly do what I expect it to do most of the time - and even has an actual tactical use, both in rapidly closing the distance and in combination with the melee attack. I'd gladly blame it on my own ineptitude, but the problem seems more wide-spread than that - while I see people sliding all the time, I never, ever, see people wall run outside the designated wall run spots, let alone use wall running tactically, and I don't think slowing down slide will change that.

 

Unlike slide, wall run just isn't very useful - it makes it very hard to shoot anything, it doesn't make yourself harder to shoot at (and neither do sprinting, sliding or rolling, but that's yet another issue), and it's hard to predict where you will end up.

 

Those are excellent points and comments.

 

I agree that wallrun is underused, unreliable and has little to no actual utility in combat. I think fixing the general parkour system would go a long way to incentivize movement-based playstyles without resorting to animation cancels and movement chains.

Maybe a new boss-type arena might be a good place to experiment with incorporating parkour movement into the combat, especially for Corpus where not touching the ground because of shockwaves would be beneficial.

[Tetsmeha]

This was an attempt to fix a bug. An exploit. A hiccup in the way the game flows which was not in line with the intended final product.

 

DE doesn't want to penalize "rushers" or "looters," and as a matter of fact, they are exploring ways to enable players to identify themselves as such so that they can be matched appropriately. Stop thinking DE is attacking you.

 

It could be used as a response to those who said "Thanks for the slide nerf to stop rushers" threads.

[TehJumpingJawa]

Rather than having been targeted specifically at rushers, I'd risk a guess that the sliding hotfix was meant to encourage people to actually invest into the mobility-related modules - Rush, Quick Rest, Marathon, and the new wall run efficiency mod. Those mods used to be pretty much redundant as everyone just spammed slide to move about quickly while conserving their stamina.

 

I still don't think this is a good direction however, and I think it indicates a bigger problem with the game mechanics in general. Filling yourself up with stamina mods means you have to give up some other mods that could improve your survivability, your abilities, or your tactical awareness. And I believe that in a game that emphasizes speed and mobility as much as Warframe does, mobility shouldn't be build-dependent to such an extent.

 

In fact, in any cooperative game that involves more or less free progression through a more or less linear environment, and potentially penalizes players for failing to keep up with the majority of the team - in no such game can I think of any possible situation where allowing one player - depending on their build - to be physically 10%, 30%, or even 50% faster than another player would be a good idea, and I encourage anyone to show me an example to the contrary.

 

Now obviously slide spam wasn't a magical solution to that issue. But at least it helped alleviate it somewhat by introducing a factor of experience (if not skill) to the effective mobility. It allowed more experienced players with (very rare) modules such as Flow, Focus, Streamline or Continuity to catch up with less experienced players using the (easier to obtain) stamina and speed modules. Two things I've immediately noticed since the latest patch is that a) I feel noticeably slower overall, and b) while in public games, the gap between the slower players/warframes and the faster ones seems to have increased considerably.

 

 

 

Wall running is a whole separate issue. I personally feel it's currently way too fiddly and unpredictable to be used effectively by the vast majority of players sans the precious few spots that were specifically designed for wall running (and in some cases even indicated by slide marks). Let's say you run up to a random not-perfectly-flat wall and attempt to initiate a wall run. What happens?

 

Sometimes you will just keep jogging alongside or into the wall. Sometimes you will jump and bounce helplessly off the wall, or land on a tiny bit of collider somewhere in the middle. Sometimes you will initiate a horizontal wall run, another time a vertical wall run.

 

Let's say you wanted a horizontal wall run and actually managed to get a horizontal wall run. You will then continue for a while (assuming you don't run into another tiny bit of collider, this time vertical) and eventually run into a corner, bump, door, window, etc.. What next? One time you will just come to a sudden stop and drop off. Another time you will make a turn and continue wall-running along the next wall as long as your stamina allows. Yet another time you will be propelled at a high speed in a hard-to-predict direction, usually sending you crashing into the opposite wall, plunging into abyss, or - worst case - trapping you permanently outside the level.

 

And what if you get a vertical wall run? One time, you will run up the wall for a while and then bump into a collider or just seemingly run out of juice and proceed to slowly slide downwards. Another time you will seamlessly make a 90 degree  turn and continue running on the surface above, yet another time you will also make a 90 degree turn but jump over the top instead. Another time you will just drop off the top as if in an aborted jump attempt, or somersault away from the wall (and, curiously, roll back *towards* the wall upon landing).

 

In the light of my wall running woes, the floor sliding mechanic seems to refreshingly do what I expect it to do most of the time - and even has an actual tactical use, both in rapidly closing the distance and in combination with the melee attack. I'd gladly blame it on my own ineptitude, but the problem seems more wide-spread than that - while I see people sliding all the time, I never, ever, see people wall run outside the designated wall run spots, let alone use wall running tactically, and I don't think slowing down slide will change that.

 

Unlike slide, wall run just isn't very useful - it makes it very hard to shoot anything, it doesn't make yourself harder to shoot at (and neither do sprinting, sliding or rolling, but that's yet another issue), and it's hard to predict where you will end up.

 

I hope the devs see the above, and take it on-board.

 

To add to that, here's my opinion in point form:

 

- Moving quickly is good.

It can make for more dynamic gameplay, and a higher skill ceiling.

 

- Artificial cooldowns are bad.

It interferes with the fluidity of controls, and can make them feel unresponsive and frustrating to use.

There's nothing worse than having to time your key presses to the rhythm of an invisible countdown.

 

- Rushing is bad.

A reward system that encourages players to skip content is a serious design flaw.

Frame mods (& base attributes) that further emphasise this style of play just compound the error.

[RyojinOrion]

So basically you're not playing Warframe, as it is currently being designed. I know. It's so presumptuous, it's crazy.

 

Incorrect. I'm not playing the final version of Warframe, but I am indeed playing Warframe. Saying that a beta version of a game isn't the game itself is pure silliness. I honestly have a hard time believing you are serious when posting that.

 

 

Rather than having been targeted specifically at rushers, I'd risk a guess that the sliding hotfix was meant to encourage people to actually invest into the mobility-related modules - Rush, Quick Rest, Marathon, and the new wall run efficiency mod.

 

If that's the case, then they failed at that also. At least, for me they did.

 

 

b) while in public games, the gap between the slower players/warframes and the faster ones seems to have increased considerably.

 

That is exactly one of the things I am trying to emphasize with this thread and the actions which I have taken detailed in it. The rushers are still rushing just fine, but the slow ones are getting left behind. Of course, some are able to keep up fairly well, but nowhere as near as well as they used to.

 

But who knows, maybe I just haven't been playing in the right random groups. Maybe those people are unaware of how to adapt to the cooldown like I have. Either way, the cooldown is doing little good and that's the thing that I want the devs to take notice of.

 

[Estred]

No, I don't think it has been explicitly stated, but all the facts I have seen implies that it was. I'll continue under that assumption until they say otherwise.

Just because you fail to understand the logic doesn't mean it isn't there. It is pretty simple, actually. Just take a second to think about it. People were rushing, and other people were complaining about it and they implement this change. I rush specifically to make those same players frustrated so that they will continue to complain so the devs can see that their change isn't doing any good and try to focus on other ways to solve the problem. The logic is perfectly reasonable. This thread is a way to draw even more attention to the idea behind the thread, the idea that you have to cure the disease and not the symptoms.

Which may or may not actually cause further "nerfs" if indeed they are trying to counter rushing. However DE_Steve has said that he liked the idea of Speed-Runs, so my guess is that this fix was purely to fix an exploit. It was not intended to 'helicopter' and it just made it to the beta before it was caught. I have been in a few Beta's and frequently in games players forget that just because something made it to "live" servers does not mean that it was fully intended.

If that was the Case then Riot Games wouldn't be constantly adjusting Champions for League of Legends because anything that went live would be 100% intended. Please note I am being sarcastic here. Rather than protest the game especially by causing misery to others, why don't you provide a clear argument that the previous speed-methods were intended and that leaving your team behind was totally the idea for a Co-op online shooter.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Estred

[RyojinOrion]

Which may or may not actually cause further "nerfs" if indeed they are trying to counter rushing.

 

That's why I took the time to create this thread in the first place. Hopefully they will see it and realize that movement nerfs just aren't helping to counter rushing, and that they have to cure the mentality that makes people want to exploit such things so they can rush.

 

 However DE_Steve has said that he liked the idea of Speed-Runs, so my guess is that this fix was purely to fix an exploit. It was not intended to 'helicopter' and it just made it to the beta before it was caught. I have been in a few Beta's and frequently in games players forget that just because something made it to "live" servers does not mean that it was fully intended.

 

I'm pretty sure he, or one of the other devs, said that rushing through the content isn't cool. And I agree the the 'helicoptor' exploit was an issue, but to nerf a bunch of other valid movements just to get rid of that is a bit ridiculous. It is a bit like using a rocket launcher in a small sealed room when you could have just used a pistol. You'll nail your target, but you'll also hit everything else.

 

I get that the game is in Beta. I know how they work, I've been a part of many open and closed betas, and even held a QA job dealing specifically with pre-final-version games.

 

 

provide a clear argument that the previous speed-methods were intended and that leaving your team behind was totally the idea for a Co-op online shooter.

 

Because that is not at all what I am trying to accomplish here. You might as well have just told me to open up Notepad on my computer in order to watch a video file. I've already explained why I am doing it the way I am, I don't feel the need to repeat myself.

Edited June 9, 2013 by RyojinOrion

[SymphNo9]

...

I'm pretty sure he, or one of the other devs, said that rushing through the content isn't cool. And I agree the the 'helicoptor' exploit was an issue, but to nerf a bunch of other valid movements just to get rid of that is a bit ridiculous. It is a bit like using a rocket launcher in a small sealed room when you could have just used a pistol. You'll nail your target, but you'll also hit everything else.

 

I get that the game is in Beta. I know how they work, I've been a part of many open and closed betas, and even held a QA job dealing specifically with pre-final-version games.

...

 

Allow me to add onto your analogy. Even with the rocket launcher, they still missed the target. As the exploit is still standing strong and well.

[Ferriwind]

How does one stop rushing in a game where the mechanics affect all players, rushers and non-rushers alike? Stop trying to slow players down and add challenging and intuitive gameplay is what I say.

[Estred]

That's why I took the time to create this thread in the first place. Hopefully they will see it and realize that movement nerfs just aren't helping to counter rushing, and that they have to cure the mentality that makes people want to exploit such things so they can rush.

 

 

I'm pretty sure he, or one of the other devs, said that rushing through the content isn't cool. And I agree the the 'helicoptor' exploit was an issue, but to nerf a bunch of other valid movements just to get rid of that is a bit ridiculous. It is a bit like using a rocket launcher in a small sealed room when you could have just used a pistol. You'll nail your target, but you'll also hit everything else.

 

I get that the game is in Beta. I know how they work, I've been a part of many open and closed betas, and even held a QA job dealing specifically with pre-final-version games.

 

 

 

Because that is not at all what I am trying to accomplish here. You might as well have just told me to open up Notepad on my computer in order to watch a video file. I've already explained why I am doing it the way I am, I don't feel the need to repeat myself.

I think Steve meant speedrunning as an option, not as a "go-to" gamestyle. They want players to work as a team which running off solo is not doing that.

 

(Sorry I don't know how to make smaller quote blocks).

 

You don't have to repeat yourself as you clearly have presented yourself as a level minded individual. I am in agreement that nerfing players movement so to speak is bad. Helicoptering was indeed an exploit but one that may not have been a good fix. I will agree what sliding into slides was very fun.

[MoonicusMaximus]

I didn't realize DE stated that fixing slideattack abuse was meant to solve the rushing problem.

 

Because it looked like they fixed an exploit, to me.

 

 

I am glad the OP is playing the way he wants, though.