Op Weapons? Why Shouldn´t Harder-To-Get Weapons Be Better Than Starter Ones?

[oneproduct]

There are definitely some things that need to be nerfed. The most important thing is weapons with innate armor piercing/ignore. This mechanic needs to seriously be reworked. Because of how armor scales with level for enemies, at high levels weapons with armor piercing/ignore are vastly superior to everything else.

 

For rifles, the braton and burston (this actually has higher DPS than the braton by a touch, though if you're aiming for heads may not be as good) probably need to come down a bit in terms of damage while the Mk1-Braton should come up.

 

The 2H heavy weapons could probably come down in terms of charge damage because of their main benefit: momentum/stagger resistance (I see it being referred to by these two names), which the other melee weapons don't have. That momentum is what makes them so useful at taking out crowds of infested as you don't get interrupted.

 

Nobody talks about the furax, but if you're just using stealth with melee to take down bosses the furax actually has the highest DPS of all melee weapons, though it only hits one target and has pretty small range, so perhaps that's a fair trade.

 

I wouldn't dare nerf the Lex, it's bad enough already, though people refuse to see this because all they notice is the big numbers coming out of it and that enemies die in one hit. Yes, that's cool, but because of how slow it fires it has terrible DPS. The kunai/despair do very similar damage to the Lex per shot while having immensely more DPS when talking about sustained damage. When enemies start to get armor with high levels, the Lex becomes even worse while the kunai and despair stay great. That being said, the kunai/despair themselves shouldn't be nerfed as much as the armor piercing/ignore mechanics for weapons, which would actually bring them much more in line with other weapons. Though they could stand to have a slightly longer reload time or firing time or both even.

 

If you want to see some DPS comparisons, here are some spreadsheets:

Rifles: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ai3njS0ds_RVdHdaSmdSRlJWbHJzVGJQVmlGd0o2OGc#gid=0

Shotguns: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ai3njS0ds_RVdE12UFRrSzU0MHZxTFZRSEpxcnlBV3c#gid=0

Secondaries: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ai3njS0ds_RVdDNMeElJcjdsajRKSG05SWR1RmlzaVE#gid=0

 

You can go "File > Make a copy" if you want to fiddle with the equipped mods.

 

For that second part of your post, having better and better guns would certainly be bad though. Not just because people would lose all the time/money spent on potatos and forma, but because there'd be no reason to pick anything else. This reduces the selection of viable weapons, which isn't fun, and doesn't let people stick with a favorite weapon if they have one. Eventually you run out of ideas as well. How would you keep making better weapons anyway? Sniper Rifle III, Sniper Rifle IV, Sniper Rifle V...? At some point it has to stop. Also, if you had the best gun, you'd become bored because it wouldn't be worth spending the time leveling anything else up. It's like MMOs where you beat the final dungeon and have the best gear. What else is worth doing?

Edited June 16, 2013 by oneproduct

[Wooffgang]

I am more pleased with my lex than i am with my Despair. Got both weapons potatoed and i can say for sure anyone who said the lex is a bad gun needs to have their eyes fixed and aim for the head. If you bodyshot with it yea its bad. Sustained dps? Most things die in 1 hit. I can 1 shot mobs on T3 runs (not Heavy units ofc but it still does decent damage to it).

 

There should just be a end tier set of weapons that outclass the rest. All the weapons have advantages and disadvantages anyway. If we want total balance we would get to the point where changing from starter gear would be pointless.

 

And if you ever played a MMORPG. Like WoW;Aion;L2 etc you would know how silly this issue is. Every new patch comes with new gear. PVP and PVE that can take up to months to get and that completely outclasses the one you had, that also took a S#&$load of time to get. Not to mention Enchants and other stuff you can smash into it. Oh and those games have PVP. What do we have here? 3-5 days on attempting to get 1 weapon. And the part of actually leveling ur profile. This is a PVE game. If the fact that i have a better weapon bothers you then just dont play with me. The abort button is there. Last time i checked this is a CO-Op game. Exp gets shared. So even if I'm running a frame that shoots fireballs from its &#! and a gun that can rip trough any form of enemy... It is still in your advantage. I fail to see ur point. Stick to the starter gear if you want.

 

Ppl asking for complete weapon balance just want to be able to get something good early on and stick to it so they don't have to buy slots. Ppl eighter complain about new stuff when they have something simmilar with potato/Forma applied. Stop attempting to stockpile on those and just use them on what ever. Thing gets outclassed you keep it or you delete it. You can use anything in this game as long as it is potatoed. Just don't go ridiculously high on Def missions. T3 is manageable with any weapon.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Kyryu

[oneproduct]

If something you shoot with the Lex dies in one hit, you are overkilling it, and thus wasting a lot of damage. You could have a pistol that does 1000 damage with a 1000 second reload. It would do 1 DPS but when it did shoot it would kill everything in one hit. It would be a bad gun. The Lex suffers from the same problem, only to a lesser degree, though the exaggerated case shows the problem.

 

If you can hit someone in the head with a Lex, you can do the same with a Lato that has even higher accuracy than the Lex. It might take more than one shot, but it would take less time overall since the Lato has higher DPS. Not for one target if it only takes one shot for the Lex because the damage would be front loaded, but if you had to kill many targets the Lato can do it faster.

 

Heavy units and bosses clearly demonstrate the problem that the Lex has as well. These are cases where DPS is important because it takes a lot of damage to down them and the Lex, with its lowest DPS in the entire game, is going to have problems downing them relative to other weapons.

 

As for it being a PVE game and it being beneficial for you to be stronger because it helps the team, there's truth and falsehood to that. On the other side of it, if you're so much stronger than me, it isn't particularly fun for me if you do all the killing. You're also partially wrong about XP. Only warframe XP is shared, weapon XP is based on assists/kills. If you kill everything before I get a chance to shoot it, my weapon doesn't get any XP. And looking at the scoreboard at the end of a mission and seeing a small damage % contribution on my part since you're so much stronger wouldn't be particularly encouraging either.

 

MMOs are different because stronger weapons come with harder content. We aren't getting harder content so we can't have stronger weapons otherwise it ruins the challenge. The enemies aren't getting any better unless you start going ridiculous high in defense missions. This is also a situation in which the Lex would start to suck. The second it fails to kill someone in one hit, i.e. going from doing 100+% of their total health (one shotting) to 99%, it instantly becomes twice as bad because it's going to take two shots to kill something and those two shots will deal a total of 198% damage which will be 98% overkill. Weapons with higher DPS but lower damage per shot don't have the same problem. It's like trying to pay for something that costs pennies when you only have dollars and they don't give you back change.

 

It's also different in that in MMOs you are expected to outgrow your gear as you level up. In this game your gear is suppose to level up with you. You can buy weapons in any order, so there can't be a hierarchy to how strong they are. Should alert weapons or dojo weapons be more powerful? What's harder to get? You can guarantee the availability of dojo weapons whereas with alerts you just have to hope to get lucky. How about stalker weapons? I don't have a despair yet which is probably the strongest weapon in the game right now. On the other hand I have a supra and acrid. But at the same time, I could just spend money and buy despair, but I couldn't buy dojo weapons. Is money the deciding factor then? Should weapons you buy with money be the strongest? Do we make the game pay to win?

 

It's good as it is now. Sidegrades provide interesting choices. Braton or Dera? Same basic stats but Dera has 10% extra damage but now has travel time on its projectiles. Both are valid. If you start making "harder to get" weapons better, you won't even have to think. Plus you'll fall into the same trap anyways. Get the current best weapon, potato and forma it, then toss it away without a question when the next best weapon shows up.

Edited June 16, 2013 by oneproduct

[Zero.No.Hikari]

The only type of weapons I don't have are full auto rifles, Boltor I have but it's so unused due to how I don't like it.  Honestly I was amazed I maxed it out.  For me Sniper rifles are great and amazing sure I sometimes only use Shotguns for mastery to be able to get the Lanka.secondaries are good depending on what I'm running, Bosses: AFuris just to tear them down fast, normal runs: what ever isn't maxed or what I enjoy.  Melee I only have a few choices due to not being able to kill stuff so fast. Balancing I see as something for PvP not PvE, if it kills faster or better let it, its probably very extensively modded, I just got the Dread and I'm not enjoying it.  Hek and Strun I still have to fully use, I like them but I can't find myself using them often to the fullest, Snipetron and Paris are my faves, along with my tanky-ish Ember which I can stand infront of a Hyena and not even take a single hit to my HP.  If you want balance ask them what mods they have.  if it's OP it's something they know how to use to perfection.  

[BadAimbot]

On the topic of progression, Mods do a far better job of it than new weapons. Maxed Hornet Strike is a 3.2x bonus to pistol damage. That's a way larger bonus than any jump in base damage. Multishot multiplies that by 2.2x, making the gap even larger. Mods require leveling up by fusing other mods, so there are opportunity costs to choosing to upgrade one mod over another, especially considering each level requires 2x the mods than the previous level. It works much better as a progression system than new weapons does, because you have the choice to pick which mods you upgrade, and it affects each weapon that uses the mod equally. RNG not giving you the mods you want was fixed by the new Defense rewards while not making it too easy for low level players to get the mods.

 

About the Lex, its ability to one-shot enemies makes it really ammo efficient, and yes, its DPS stinks. That's how sniper-type weapons work. They could bring up the DPS, but it has to suffer because of its ammo efficiency. It's still usable though; you have two other weapon slots to use for a DPS weapon. The Lex is good at what it does.

[CosyPigeon]

Agreed, I generally think that arguing against a weapon being OP in a PVE game is pointless. 

[Densoro1]

The thing about PvE, Cosy, is that then the devs start balancing the game for people in OP gear. "What do you mean the boss is overpowered? Just blow his head off with the Hek! Should take three shots."
"b-but I can't get the hek ;-; I can't kill anything anymore..."

[Aggh]

Agreed, I generally think that arguing against a weapon being OP in a PVE game is pointless. 

Ideally they want people to buy and upgrade as many weapons as possible.  There's little point in that if there are a handful of blatantly superior weapons.  Where are all the "devs gotta eat" people now?

Edited June 17, 2013 by Aggh

[Hafilgar]

Higher Mastery SHOULD reward with higher ranking stronger weapons

 

If everything is a side grade, there's no point to ranking up mastery. If the ogris is the same as a braton, then its not worth it. Why farm so many mats when a weapon with no rank requirements can dish out the same dps? This actually limits user creativity and weapon expansion. You might think that more side grades means people want to try out more weapons to see what fits their play style, but if the process of acquiring them isn't equal, then it's not worth the time. Would you farm endlessly to build the Supra if it does the same damage as a gorgon even though it takes 108 hours to build it and still have to farm all those control mods and plastids where as the gorgon requires considerably less? Honestly why would you waste your time building anything new if mat requirements become exponentially greater yet damage output of new weapons is still the same.

 

This is why I support the idea that higher mastery should give stronger weapons. Is it necessary in this game right now? No. But with the void now, DE can implement enemies much harder than pluto and that's where stronger weapons come in handy.

 

Edit: This also gives players the  incentive to try every weapon so that they can rank up their mastery. It gives people a goal to work towards. If you really wanted side grades then take out the Mastery system and have most weapon obtainable by playing missions instead of buying it from market or relying on Alerts. Not everyone is curious enough to waste time to try out a rank 7 weapon if has the same dps as a no-rank wep.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Hafilgar