Soloing Bosses

[nefrai]

Just a suggestion, I wanted to see what others think on this. First off, I know this is a co-op game, and most of the time you are going to run with 2-4 players in a match. However, according to my understanding, the levels are harder based on having more players (which is good).

To my issue with bosses - they have nigh insta-shield recovery even in solo games. I just fought Sargas Ruk with a lvl 21 frame and lvl 15-20 weapons. It takes about a clip to drop his shield (with the Braton Vandal/Despair on secondary). Reload clip, and his shield is usually already full again by then. For solo play, would it make sense to give him a longer shield recharge time at the least? I wouldn't mind him being hard, bosses should be hard to kill...but in this case I could shoot him until I had no ammo, and he can still have most of his health. Can't melee him, as he will just burst aoe and knock you flying.

Just suggesting tactics to kill bosses, when a lot of them feel like they are simply brute-force to kill. If you 2-4 people, he's down with no effort, with one person you simply don't usually have the firepower to take him out. Sometimes a person wants to solo, maybe they want to take their time and loot everything in the level (any public match is going want to beeline of course, since it's just farming boss), or just practice the boss on their own.

What are your thoughts - leave bosses like Ruk alone, or change them up a little so soloing them would still feel hard to do, but not with the total frustration of that shield popping back up before you can even reload a clip? Understand I don't want bosses to be pushovers. The shield just feels a bit cheap. I'd rather he did higher damage so I had to be more careful, or even just more adds spawning than have that shield how it is now.

[DiBBz]

some bosses you can solo no problem , however others require team effort , if you want to speed-run it then a team is what you will need to get the job done quicker

[Meenmu]

I know what you mean. I was leveling some weapons earlier today. Decided to run hyena. Took half of my entire ammo pool for kraken to bring him down to half shield, and by the time my gun switch to primary, he was full again.

[SouthBi4ch]

grab a banshee press 2 ->profit

[nefrai]

I don't want to speed run it, not when I solo. I do really want a challenge, I just get frustrated when I feel like most of that challenge is simply his shield regenerating, and not really from the boss himself. I hope that makes sense, anyway lol. If it's simply they don't want you to solo a boss, I get it and will accept it...but since you have the option to solo, and I know they change the gameplay for solo levels elsewhere, it would be nice if they considered how to make soling a boss tough, but not in what feels a cheap way (insta shield-regen). It's not so much of a complaint really, more of a "please make the boss interesting for solo play", and not just having to have extra guns to keep that shield down. I don't mind failing a mission when I know I made a mistake and got myself killed, but in this case I just go dry on ammo and it's "well...I guess I'll let him kill me now". For now I just won't try to solo bosses like him, it's just something on my wish list I guess, lol.

One example of changes in other levels, is the roller in multiplayer that shock you until a friend shoots them off - but in solo play, you could just roll to get them to fall off. Just a different tactic so Solo is still hard, but slightly different in how you defeat an enemy.

[drunkpunk222]

Im waiting for chalanging game, not this pure noob stuff, stick with global agenda game, you cant solo anything there and only with GOOD party you can finish the missions.

[austinrelis]

Just a suggestion, I wanted to see what others think on this. First off, I know this is a co-op game, and most of the time you are going to run with 2-4 players in a match. However, according to my understanding, the levels are harder based on having more players (which is good).

To my issue with bosses - they have nigh insta-shield recovery even in solo games. I just fought Sargas Ruk with a lvl 21 frame and lvl 15-20 weapons. It takes about a clip to drop his shield (with the Braton Vandal/Despair on secondary). Reload clip, and his shield is usually already full again by then. For solo play, would it make sense to give him a longer shield recharge time at the least? I wouldn't mind him being hard, bosses should be hard to kill...but in this case I could shoot him until I had no ammo, and he can still have most of his health. Can't melee him, as he will just burst aoe and knock you flying.

Just suggesting tactics to kill bosses, when a lot of them feel like they are simply brute-force to kill. If you 2-4 people, he's down with no effort, with one person you simply don't usually have the firepower to take him out. Sometimes a person wants to solo, maybe they want to take their time and loot everything in the level (any public match is going want to beeline of course, since it's just farming boss), or just practice the boss on their own.

What are your thoughts - leave bosses like Ruk alone, or change them up a little so soloing them would still feel hard to do, but not with the total frustration of that shield popping back up before you can even reload a clip? Understand I don't want bosses to be pushovers. The shield just feels a bit cheap. I'd rather he did higher damage so I had to be more careful, or even just more adds spawning than have that shield how it is now.

Ruk's shield goes down in 3 hits from my gorgon.

 

Your mods might suck.

 

Although yes they should add tactics and stuff required to kill bosses.

Edited June 16, 2013 by austinrelis

[demonaii]

Just a suggestion, I wanted to see what others think on this. First off, I know this is a co-op game, and most of the time you are going to run with 2-4 players in a match. However, according to my understanding, the levels are harder based on having more players (which is good).

To my issue with bosses - they have nigh insta-shield recovery even in solo games. I just fought Sargas Ruk with a lvl 21 frame and lvl 15-20 weapons. It takes about a clip to drop his shield (with the Braton Vandal/Despair on secondary). Reload clip, and his shield is usually already full again by then. For solo play, would it make sense to give him a longer shield recharge time at the least? I wouldn't mind him being hard, bosses should be hard to kill...but in this case I could shoot him until I had no ammo, and he can still have most of his health. Can't melee him, as he will just burst aoe and knock you flying.

Just suggesting tactics to kill bosses, when a lot of them feel like they are simply brute-force to kill. If you 2-4 people, he's down with no effort, with one person you simply don't usually have the firepower to take him out. Sometimes a person wants to solo, maybe they want to take their time and loot everything in the level (any public match is going want to beeline of course, since it's just farming boss), or just practice the boss on their own.

What are your thoughts - leave bosses like Ruk alone, or change them up a little so soloing them would still feel hard to do, but not with the total frustration of that shield popping back up before you can even reload a clip? Understand I don't want bosses to be pushovers. The shield just feels a bit cheap. I'd rather he did higher damage so I had to be more careful, or even just more adds spawning than have that shield how it is now.

Son, it's time you put a some cash in the game, okay?

[nefrai]

grab a banshee press 2 ->profit

I haven't tried Banshee yet. I actually reset my game (I put a lot of thought into before I reset, and have been glad I did so far), so right now I only have Ex Prime and Mag. I'm taking my time this second round, I had spent a lot of credits before testing out random things, so after my reset I'm focusing on tighter control over what I work on and how. I had almost quit the game 2 or 3 updates ago, so much of it feels new, which had gotten me back into it with a fresh restart. I thought I would regret my reset right away, but it's actually been surprisingly positive for me. Anyway, that's another topic, sorry :)

I always felt like since this game is designed to be played with small teams anyway, it would be nice for the bosses to be more like Jackal - more tactical in nature.

[austinrelis]

Son, it's time you put a some cash in the game, okay?

The irony.

[Asbyn]

Every boss in the game can easily be soloed, FYI. And not just by Loki/Ash. It just requires the right mods and weapons. So no, there's not much need to do what you're suggesting. Also, both the Braton Vandal and Despair are more than enough to kill any boss, so I'm going to assume your mods aren't particularly high ranked, or that you lack some of the rarer mods altogether.

[Hatr]

Yeah i guess they should decrease the shield recharge time but instead, double their health.. as they are way too easy for end game players.. 

Banshee's sonar + maxed boltor can take down krill with 40 bullets when he's frozen

[nefrai]

@demonaii Time to put money into the game? Do you know how you get the Grand Master forum thingy 'son'? lol

I'm not talking about killing a level 8 boss with lvl 30 maxed out gear. The whole point of what I'm saying is make bosses more skill/tactics based, not simply brute-force. The only reason this boss in particular is hard, at all, is because his shield comes back nearly instantly. That is perfectly fine for 2 or more in a party, it just seems there was no consideration on soloing a boss like that.

[Ghobe]

What are your thoughts - leave bosses like Ruk alone, or change them up a little so soloing them would still feel hard to do, but not with the total frustration of that shield popping back up before you can even reload a clip?

I'd rather see every boss virtually require 4 players.

 

As to Ruk himself...I honestly don't understand how people have issues with his shield. Once you're capable of breaching +60% damage, his shield melts very quickly, and let's face it, by the time you have 15 mod capacity you're already capable of pushing double that. Whenever one of these threads come up, I really question if people can aim at all.

[nefrai]

Every boss in the game can easily be soloed, FYI. And not just by Loki/Ash. It just requires the right mods and weapons. So no, there's not much need to do what you're suggesting. Also, both the Braton Vandal and Despair are more than enough to kill any boss, so I'm going to assume your mods aren't particularly high ranked, or that you lack some of the rarer mods altogether.

This is true, since my reset I'm rebuilding my mods. I have pretty modest mods at this point, as I'm re-unlocking everyhing. I was just a little surprised that he was this hard to solo with a frame and weapons that are twice his level with moderate mods. I had expected to be killed by him quickly or some other reason to fail at him solo, not for for sole reason of his shield, and also the fact he never runs out of energy (he spams the ability so you can't shoot or you kill yourself) That ability was ok, that added to the tactics. The shield only means I need to be able to do constant damage and have lightning fast reload mods. It's just a little disappointing when that is the only reason he's hard. I'm considering this from the perspective of a player that is no maxed out yet, not from a lvl 30 OP standpoint. If that is the idea, then I will accept that. Is the purpose of the boss to not be soloed at all, until you are well overpowered compared to him? Or should it be more about simply having a tactical way to kill them (which is also more fun, again like the Jackal).

[nefrai]

I'd rather see every boss virtually require 4 players.

 

As to Ruk himself...I honestly don't understand how people have issues with his shield. Once you're capable of breaching +60% damage, his shield melts very quickly, and let's face it, by the time you have 15 mod capacity you're already capable of pushing double that. Whenever one of these threads come up, I really question if people can aim at all.

My mods aren't that high yet, I only have the mods I've been able to farm up to this point, so I see the point of having to farm more to be able to kill him solo. As for aim, that's not issue I have. If the public prefers the bosses being simple brute-force and holding that shield down, that's fine. It just seems a bit overly simple on one hand, while being quite hard for a person still farming out mods. And I do of course feel that if you are fighting a boss with 4 people, he should be hard as hell. The issue here is that with 2-4 people, Ruk is a complete pushover, he is only frustrating solo due to his shield. If you simply want him to be hard until you farm enough mods to do x-damage to his shield, that's ok...I just wish it wasn't that straight forward and simple. It's a false sense of difficulty. Ruk is just an example, there are more bosses that have difficulty built in simply via shields, rather than any skill. I love fighting Jackal, simply because you actually have a few dynamics to the fight, not just beating a shield down.

[ytNoise]

The only reason this boss in particular is hard, at all, is because his shield comes back nearly instantly. That is perfectly fine for 2 or more in a party, it just seems there was no consideration on soloing a boss like that.

Why would they want you to easily solo bosses on low levels with crappy gear?

 

But I have to admit, there is not much tactics involved when fighting bosses, it's all about firepower.

The only time I was 'impressed' with the boss design, was when I, and 3 other dudes, fought Jackal the first time (with crappy gear).

[nefrai]

Why would they want you to easily solo bosses on low levels with crappy gear?

 

But I have to admit, there is not much tactics involved when fighting bosses, it's all about firepower.

The only time I was 'impressed' with the boss design, was when I, and 3 other dudes, fought Jackal the first time (with crappy gear).

Please don't misunderstand, I don't want him to be easy to kill. I want a tough fight, but it seems like some of the bosses like Ruk are simply an endurance match. Will you run out of bullets before you can beat down his shield+health, and have to suicide out of the mission...I would MUCH rather have him dealing double the damage, but have slower shield recharge. That way I know it's my skill that needs to be improved, not simply finding mods that let me overpower a shield. This could be scaled to make him a harder boss overall for better challenge, while keeping it tactical (dodging his fire and staying alive, as opposed to standing in front of him shooting him until you run out ammo). For me anyway, there is a difference between a tough fight where I know I can win with skill, and a tough fight where I simply need to farm mods in order to be able to keep his shield down.

It's not something I'm asking them to do "now" either, I just hope bosses become more dynamic. Honestly, after fighting the Jackal, almost all the other bosses were pretty disappointing. I just hope they add tactics to more bosses, and rely less on 'hold the shield down' mechanic to control the difficulty. That's really all I'm saying.

[Depar]

Get Ice-Mods and most of the bosses are a catwalk

[nefrai]

Talking to some friends, it sounds like DE is actually already working on updating bosses in this way - making them harder, but also with tactics. I think they relied heavily on the shield making bosses tough, because they were working on other things and didn't put as much time into making unique bosses, outside a couple. Using shields is an easy way to make a boss harder or tougher, just by changing a couple numbers, I just hope they move away from using that to make bosses tough, as they learn to make more strategic boss battles.

[Ghobe]

My mods aren't that high yet, I only have the mods I've been able to farm up to this point, so I see the point of having to farm more to be able to kill him solo. As for aim, that's not issue I have. If the public prefers the bosses being simple brute-force and holding that shield down, that's fine. It just seems a bit overly simple on one hand, while being quite hard for a person still farming out mods. And I do of course feel that if you are fighting a boss with 4 people, he should be hard as hell. The issue here is that with 2-4 people, Ruk is a complete pushover, he is only frustrating solo due to his shield. If you simply want him to be hard until you farm enough mods to do x-damage to his shield, that's ok...I just wish it wasn't that straight forward and simple. It's a false sense of difficulty. Ruk is just an example, there are more bosses that have difficulty built in simply via shields, rather than any skill. I love fighting Jackal, simply because you actually have a few dynamics to the fight, not just beating a shield down.

Don't get me wrong. Most bosses still need their rework where they have actual mechanics. The only 2 bosses in the game with mechanics right now are Jackal and Lech Kril. Golem is getting his revamp next and we'll be seeing a new boss along side him that should have a set of mechanics too. Most of the bosses in the game right now are just placeholders.

 

Back to the discussion of mods and damage....

Serration 2 and Piercing Hit 5 nets you +132% damage before enemy resistances/weaknesses.

Serration 2 Piercing 4 is 117.5%

Serration 2 Piercing 3 is 103%

Serration 2 Piercing 2 is 88.5%

The hardest part of getting those mods to that point is just getting the base mods to upgrade. Getting them to 2 only requires 4 of them(base+1+2). Fusion cores are pretty common too for getting them that way as well. You can argue about just rushing straight there from Mercury if you want, but that is just being dense at that point(y i no can beat boss without any farm at all!?).

 

Right now the problem isn't so much that you need a lot of damage output, it's that the lower levels of mods cause such a huge ramp up. High level mods have nothing to do with how tough the bosses are because they turn the bosses into swiss cheese(Serration 10, Piercing 5, Cryo 5 is +662.5% damage). If they were balanced around that, then you'd NEVER kill them without farming for months prior. They're actually balanced around pretty low level mods right now.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Ghobe

[nefrai]

@Ghobe

I agree, some farming should be needed for mods, and sometimes I do forget that the actual level of a Frame/weapon really mean nothing...a lvl 30 Frame with no mods is the same as a level 1 Frame. I have farmed a bit for mods, however my damage mods for the rifle are still pretty darn weak overall. I've gone through a couple systems and realized I forgot Saturn, so going back to a 'lower level' area, but my mods certainly need some work. Despair is so strong against normal enemies (one hit killing most of the time with head shots), I thought it would do more I think. I do recognize I'm a bit weak to solo a boss like Ruk right now, but my surprise wasn't that I couldn't kill him yet, more that I can actually handle his damage just fine and drop his health pretty fast once shields are down. The only reason I couldn't actually kill him was that I can't reload fast enough to keep the shield down. I had expected he would be tough in the sense he would just blast me to bits or something, but not simply from fighting his shield.

Anyway, from what I hear it sounds like they are planning on revamping bosses anyway. I would be happier dying from a boss because he is just overall able to kill me, not because he wore me down over 10 minutes and I ran out of ammo on a shield. That's just opinion, and I'm not saying I'm right, just wanted to get people's feelings on what they would like to see in a boss as well.

[Ghobe]

Despair is just a bad weapon for bosses with shields. I'm not saying that needs fixed. That's kind of its role.

 

That's just opinion, and I'm not saying I'm right, just wanted to get people's feelings on what they would like to see in a boss as well.

As to this...I've posted several things about what I want to see in a boss. The one I elaborated on the most was this one, which was a boss someone else was suggesting to the game that I just stepped up a few notches ;p Though that is what I want to see from my bosses. Very in-depth mechanics and visual-wow factor. Not to mention the panic effect from not being able to keep up with him the first few attempts.

[nefrai]

That would be pretty cool, I like the idea of bosses that are an event.<br /><br />Yeah, I kind of got that feeling from Despair, lol. Since I'm back to no gear really, I just have the Lato prime/Lato Vandal and Despair for secondary. I'm going to try to farm most of my gear this time, last time I was pretty impatient and bought most of it. I did decide to buy the Stalker gear, simply because I don't want to be burned out on Warframe by the time I can kill one and get its gear :P