The Devil Is In The Details

[SnokyoDrift]

Is everybody seriously unaware that this game is a business, and all players are being used as the beta testers they are in order to play with all that faulty content, and then go whine on the forums so it gets fixed? Is everybody seriously unaware that this is how every beta works?

To see swathes of good, simple, and indirectly influential (far superior at preserving unique gameplay elements to the direct solutions DE has implemented) suggestions fall on deaf ears over many months is enough to lose faith in the developing abilities of the developers. It also shows that they are not willing to put in the effort required to fix so many flaws that have been around for so long, related or not, which is definitely not beta-like behaviour.

As for the bolded statement, no, this is not how a beta works. I've been in betas of many, many games, certainly more games than any single developer has released, and I've seen enough of games' growth to know what's good or not. A good beta is like healthy development during the early adulthood. You've got some decent foundations and the tools required to do things, but you still need to figure out how to do things effectively, which concepts work and which don't. Simply put, it's a stage where a good game gathers more realistic knowledge on top of its existing repertoire.

 

Stamping out a million new weapons that are hardly conceptually different to what already exists is not productive for learning OR growth. It is something that you see in the last days of a game, where they try to squeeze out as much money as possible from a dying well. Their mindset seems to echo that of their players; this would be cool/popular/satisfying, so we'll do it, without thought or reason. It's as if they're taking the word "productive" a bit too literally.

 

I seriously hate playing the devil's advocate but a lot of you simply don't seem to know what the hell you're doing.

That fortune teller's comment can be spouted out in any situation and carries no value or weight. The apparent status quo is that players care more about the balancing state of this game, which is easily seen by comparing the many (but still in the minority) well thought out topics with the shallow, knee-jerk balances that DE have executed.

[TisEric]

...lol at "its beta" argument.

 

It stops being a beta once money gets involved.

Furthermore if this was a real beta we wouldn't need to spend hours farming materials and then 12-24 hours waiting for it to complete then add a catalyst or reactor just to "test" it.

[Mhak]

Didn't you ride in on some high horse about manners, being conceited etc etc etc?

Uh, no? Sorry if I busted your bubble and &!$$ed you off, but I was never riding on the same horse you still are. I never mentioned anything about manners - you're the first to do it. I'm not polite or subtle at all - this is the internet and we're all nobodies, I'll give you patience and respect until you prove to me you don't deserve it. You also seem to be implying I'm conceited, yet I never pretended to be better than anybody here, and I especially never tried to put other people down by embarrassingly spouting out how much more I've gamed than them like you have. You're doing something called reflecting buddy, but you're not doing a very good job of it.

 

You mentioned it's obvious that what I read of yours was painful to read, and then immediately follow it with that I must not have read it.

 

No, OK, *that* is the first part of this thread of yours where I'm going to stop reading, because at this point you're just grasping at straws and not even making semantic sense. You want conceited, alright - I'll engage you again when you start making sense. I don't have much patience for reading direct dichotomies and red herrings. That's not really conceited so much as impatient, but then your definitions of many words aren't the same as what's in a dictionary, so I'm throwing you a bone here.

 

(That *last* sentence was definitely conceited a little. Learn as you go. More conceit. Tee-hee.)

Edited June 17, 2013 by Mhak

[Mhak]

That fortune teller's comment can be spouted out in any situation and carries no value or weight. The apparent status quo is that players care more about the balancing state of this game, which is easily seen by comparing the many (but still in the minority) well thought out topics with the shallow, knee-jerk balances that DE have executed.

Yet it had an explanation to go along with it, a lengthy one at that, and so it was applied properly. Fortune teller's statements are only null and void is not backed up by anything, I did a pretty extensive explanation you may have glossed over or something.

 

But your argument is the most logical one here. I'd have to agree that the status quo is players want balance. I have no figures to back this up except what very likely could be a vocal minority on these forums, but...sure, lets go with it. Because I'd like to see balance too, which could mean I'm biased, but at least we're biased in the same direction if at all. A lot of us are paying for a product and our desires should be considered, I'm not arguing against that, and I'm on the same boat as preferring to see content balanced than new content added.

 

But I also understand that in a beta, rushing tons of new content and then balancing it later is how you make the game. If you go in tiny, incremental baby steps of releasing content, then taking ages to balance before new content comes out, the game will take forever to make. The way to do it, unfortunate for us though it may be, is to flush out a ton of content and then balance it in huge chunks. Too bad so sad but that's really how it goes =/

[Ghobe]

...lol at "its beta" argument.

 

It stops being a beta once money gets involved.

Furthermore if this was a real beta we wouldn't need to spend hours farming materials and then 12-24 hours waiting for it to complete then add a catalyst or reactor just to "test" it.

Wrong. Every game that will have some form of real money transaction will test it in a beta setting where they will offer refunds and what not if something goes wrong. They need to make sure it's working. Hell for a lot of betas you're able to get everything back at the end of it(in-game currency wise if that's how it's done).

As to spending time farming and build times, that is a thing to test. Do the amounts feel right? Does the amount of time feel right? Also, last I checked a potato is not needed in order to test a weapon, especially when you consider that all content right now is balanced around very low mod damage(15 mod capacity basically, not 60). All these things need tested, farm time, build time, and power/viability during growth.

[Excitonex]

I totally agree with OP. The issue is DE is also working off a limited budget and part of the issue is they NEED to keep at the breakneck pace or ELSE they WILL run out of money. It's not like the game NEEDS more weapons. there are plenty of weapons in game, yet they release 22 new ones in the last patch. why? releasing weapons in the dojo forces clans to use forma. forma (hopefully) spurs spending on forma and or void keys. (remember how hard it was to get a void key pre- buff? it was 2-3% vs the current 30% for t2s.)

 

The reason why we keep ending up doing alpha testing instead of beta testing is because we as a community haven't held DE to very high standards. they throw out untested patches, buying habits dont reflect the quality of the patches they keep releasing (not in terms of amount of content, but quality as in how many bugs there are within the content.)

Some content was needed, yes. But if people aren't buying the content you currently have then you're wasting money. It's much easier to rework a few abilities and have a frame really wanted again than to make a brand new one to sell. I wouldn't ever pay money for a melee weapon because they're laughably bad compared to primary or secondary weapons. This isn't really because of the weapons themselves but because their mods are very weak compared to the other weapon slots. Things like this should be an easy fix that makes players very happy and does not require large teams of people to complete.

[TisEric]

Wrong. Every game that will have some form of real money transaction will test it in a beta setting where they will offer refunds and what not if something goes wrong. They need to make sure it's working. Hell for a lot of betas you're able to get everything back at the end of it(in-game currency wise if that's how it's done).

As to spending time farming and build times, that is a thing to test. Do the amounts feel right? Does the amount of time feel right? Also, last I checked a potato is not needed in order to test a weapon, especially when you consider that all content right now is balanced around very low mod damage(15 mod capacity basically, not 60). All these things need tested, farm time, build time, and power/viability during growth.

 

not wrong, in many cases sure. not in all of them.

no guarantee the dev is going to do a refund.

the actual testing goes down in the alpha or  closed beta stages, you don't get refunds for open beta testing that stuff.

 

as for your second point ,

right ,except most of those things have been thoroughly tested  in the many months this has been in closed/open beta.

a conclusion has been made long ago, yet here we are still trucking a long "Testing" same old content.

 

a potato in not needed to test the weapons base but if you want to test it  in its actualized potential , end game , its ability when used with maxed out  mods you NEED a potato.

a weapon isn't balanced if it only works great at early levels.

[Bakim0n0]

Uh, no? Sorry if I busted your bubble and &!$$ed you off, but I was never riding on the same horse you still are. I never mentioned anything about manners - you're the first to do it. I'm not polite or subtle at all - this is the internet and we're all nobodies, I'll give you patience and respect until you prove to me you don't deserve it. You also seem to be implying I'm conceited, yet I never pretended to be better than anybody here, and I especially never tried to put other people down by embarrassingly spouting out how much more I've gamed than them like you have. You're doing something called reflecting buddy, but you're not doing a very good job of it.

 

You mentioned it's obvious that what I read of yours was painful to read, and then immediately follow it with that I must not have read it.

 

No, OK, *that* is the first part of this thread of yours where I'm going to stop reading, because at this point you're just grasping at straws and not even making semantic sense. You want conceited, alright - I'll engage you again when you start making sense. I don't have much patience for reading direct dichotomies and red herrings. That's not really conceited so much as impatient, but then your definitions of many words aren't the same as what's in a dictionary, so I'm throwing you a bone here.

 

(That *last* sentence was definitely conceited a little. Learn as you go. More conceit. Tee-hee.)

Ok, cool story. You have nothing to actually offer on my commentary because you keep misrepresenting it and you present yourself in the manner with which you try to denounce in me. You talk about red herrings and conceit yet you throw out straw man and ad homs and then say I'm projecting. (btw, when you talk about other people being whiners and bads, granted the bads and you good thing was from another thread, that's also conceited; also, again, look at what I said in context... Had that person not patronized me and used baby talk I never would have pointed out that I'm not young and I've been around)

You had some fair points, some of which were literally what I was going to say (like about how we don't really know what DE's financial position is and how they've incurred a lot of costs trying to prep for increased traffic) but you essentially bury it in being a total jerk... which I don't care about but it makes me laugh considering you're giving me crap about doing the same thing.

And regarding the part about not having read my comments... thank you for proving my point. Carry on. I look forward to not being told to check my thread.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[Ghobe]

not wrong, in many cases sure. not in all of them.

no guarantee the dev is going to do a refund.

the actual testing goes down in the alpha or  closed beta stages, you don't get refunds for open beta testing that stuff.

They don't have an alpha, nor a closed beta team. All they have is us in the open beta and the dev team themselves. You can argue that the dev team should spend more time testing than pushing out, but then you'll get a new bandwagon of people complaining that content isn't coming out fast enough.

 

as for your second point ,

right ,except most of those things have been thoroughly tested  in the many months this has been in closed/open beta.

a conclusion has been made long ago, yet here we are still trucking a long "Testing" same old content.

It's possible to argue for or against new weapons having reduced/increased costs/time to craft. Right now I still feel strongly about the akbolto needing a reduced time since you need to craft both boltos(1 at a time for 12 hours each) and then craft them into akbolto(12 hours, total 36 hours). Nothing else in the game is even close to that time(hell dojo sections take less time lol). Now feel free to argue that boltos and akbolto have both been in the game for a long time, but keep in mind, outside of myself, I don't think the subject has even been touched on.

 

a potato in not needed to test the weapons base but if you want to test it  in its actualized potential , end game , its ability when used with maxed out  mods you NEED a potato.

a weapon isn't balanced if it only works great at early levels.

We don't have end-game content to test it against. Pluto is at best early-mid game and Void isn't all that much harder, if at all(even at t3). At least that's how it feels with how far we can take mods. And if we're talking about end-game, we should also be talking about the 9-10 forma to completely polarize for a total of 120 capacity(not that 120 can be consumed, but point stands). We can't speak on end-game balance if end-game does not exist, we can only attempt theory.

[Bakim0n0]

It's possible to argue for or against new weapons having reduced/increased costs/time to craft. Right now I still feel strongly about the akbolto needing a reduced time since you need to craft both boltos(1 at a time for 12 hours each) and then craft them into akbolto(12 hours, total 36 hours). Nothing else in the game is even close to that time(hell dojo sections take less time lol). Now feel free to argue that boltos and akbolto have both been in the game for a long time, but keep in mind, outside of myself, I don't think the subject has even been touched on.

To throw this out there....

The supra takes 7 of those crafted mats that take 12 hours a piece and 24 hours for the actual build. Tha'ts 108 hours of wait time in the foundry.

[Mhak]

you present yourself in the manner with which you try to denounce in me.

 

You talk about red herrings and conceit yet you throw out straw man and ad homs and then say I'm projecting.

 

(btw, when you talk about other people being whiners and bads, granted the bads and you good thing was from another thread, that's also conceited; also, again, look at what I said in context... Had that person not patronized me and used baby talk I never would have pointed out that I'm not young and I've been around)

 

- Never tried to denounce you, still haven't actually, just pointed out your fallacies. Such as:

 

- I don't think you know what a strawman is. I never presented an argument different than your own and shot it down, which is what a strawman is.

 

- I said you were reflecting, not projecting. I'm sure you know the difference...yeah?

 

- I never mentioned bads anywhere. (this strongly correlates with the previous point)

 

- Only talked about whining in the context that we all need to do it on the forums so the game is improved, or agreeing that paying for a beta sucks (mentioning I do it myself btw, in both contexts)

 

You're really bad at this, you know. Keep it up, I can do this all day, maybe one day you'll get something right or not put words in my mouth. I'm not a psychiatrist or anything but with all the words you're putting in my mouth and how incorrectly you use terms like strawman, I'd say you're being pretty defensive. You must still think I'm attacking you.

 

I'm correcting you. There's a difference. Chill out broseph stalin.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Mhak

[Bakim0n0]

- Never tried to denounce you, still haven't actually, just pointed out your fallacies.

Denounce: to condemn or censure openly or publicly

"To the first part of this quote - you're kinda conceited, broseph. Just felt the need to throw out why you *might* be superior to this dude (in the sense of gaming more...way to go, buddy...) at the start of your reply? I'm sure he read that and felt really humbled, and everybody else nodded sagely in regards to your superiority."

 

- I don't think you know what a strawman is. I never presented an argument different than your own and shot it down, which is what a strawman is.

"If you want to whine about how they make us pay for a game in beta, right there with you man, but the rest of what you're saying is sort of garbage."

Never said that, I said trying to excuse game flaws for a game being in beta goes out the window when you charge money. I have no problem with charging money at all.

"But saying you're going to stop beta testing because the beta is too unbalanced...dear god it's painful to read, at least come up with a different excuse because that one kills brain cells."

I didn't say I am going to stop beta testing because the beta is too unbalanced. I said DE is not paying enough attention to details and I'm tired of testing content and giving feedback for those details to continue to be ignored and for the same mistakes to be made again (a good example, that game breaking bug demonstrated in livestream 7 was a bug my friends and I found and reported roughtly 2+ months prior and is one of many oversights we've flagged).

"Really the only fair gripe here is that a lot of us are spending money on this game, while it's still so unbalanced. True fact. But you also have to concede that nobody forced you to pay a dime - you did it either as a founder to help fund this game (in which case you shouldn't be complaining about anything because you helped fund the construction of a game not yet completed), or just to buy plat for new shinies. In the latter case it can be argued you're just impatient."

I never suggested I was forced to spend money, but then you make up my mind for me, present a stance I don't have and rebuke it in the same stroke.

 

 

- I said you were reflecting, not projecting. I'm sure you know the difference...yeah?

You said reflecting, in context I figured you meant projecting because it seemed like you were saying I was seeing my problems in you; which is actually projecting. If you weren't using it in that context I apologize but then what you said loses meaning.

 

 

- I never mentioned bads anywhere. (this strongly correlates with the previous point)

 

As I said in that post; it was from a different thread; namely the "defense heroes" thread. If you really like I can dig up the quotes.

 

 

You're really bad at this, you know. Keep it up, I can do this all day, maybe one day you'll get something right or not put words in my mouth. I'm not a psychiatrist or anything but with all the words you're putting in my mouth and how incorrectly you use terms like strawman, I'd say you're being pretty defensive. You must still think I'm attacking you.

 

I'm correcting you. There's a difference. Chill out broseph stalin.

Actually I am surprized at how you're not seeing the straw-men you present, I did link some examples of you talking about me making points I didn't make, or misrepresentations of points I did make.

and again...

"You're really bad at this" "maybe one day you'll get something right" "You must still think I'm attacking you. I'm correcting you. There's a difference. Chill out broseph stalin."

To clarify how you're going on the offensive and saying you aren't in the same breath.

But you know... I'm correcting you. Chill out Brose Canseco

Edited June 17, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[Mhak]

I'll give you the first bit if you interpret being called out being conceited in public as being censured. That's how you took it though, which reflects that you knew what you said was out of line. I was pointing out that your conceit had nothing to do with your argument. Half a point for you.

 

Second bit regarding the the straw man - I never said you whined about paying for a beta, I said if you did, I'd be there with you. Neither said you made the argument, nor shot it down. You said you're going to take a break because they're pushing out unbalanced context. I didn't even flip your words - you're no longer playing this game due to balance issues.Read up on fallacies. Closest fallacy that would come to (but wasn't) would be a non-sequitur because my argument could be interpreted as not following your own, although again, it was. And no ad hominems for the record, never attacked you although you keep saying I am. I don't want to lecture you but that's sort of a classic grasping-at-straws defense in any debate. No points for you.

 

Third bit goes unspoken for. No points for you.

 

Forth bit, challenge accepted. Find and quote me saying anyone is bad. Your move. (Brotip - I don't consider myself good so I sure as hell never call any one bad or bads. No points for you inc.)

 

Fifth bit, well, I gave you half a point. You're trying real hard so I'll give you another half for effort, you get a whole point. You seem to think I'm attacking you still, which is probably why you think I called other people bads in other threads. Narp. And please don't ever become an English or Debate professor, because if this is how you correct people you'd raise one semester of idiots before getting fired  =/

 

*That* was an ad hominem (used as an example for you.)

Edited June 17, 2013 by Mhak

[Bakim0n0]

Not censure, condemn.... not sure why the colors changed there (copy / pasted it)

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/64363-i-am-sick-of-defense-heroes/page-14#entry685395

Granted, you were specifically talking about people who watch the pod die; but the way you presented it comes off as you, essentially, saying that person is a bad player because they do something out of rage. (emotional reactions aren't an accurate gauge of ability)

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/64363-i-am-sick-of-defense-heroes/?p=685604


Admittedly you didn't explicitly call people "bads" in those words, but you still imply you're better than other players and also imply that because I want a team all with line of sight on the pod I am lacking in ability and even jealous of people who fight in doorways. Doesn't change that you're basically just as conceited in how you present your posts there and here as I am... again, I don't have a problem with it I just find it funny considering. So while you didn't literally call people bads, you did imply it... I guess I shouldn't have worded it that way... I just didn't feel like making a huge post about it... like... I... am... now... -_-

-=-
in regards to the "third bit" / the end would you be referring to: b. To bring blame or discredit when you say reflecting? Because as I said before, in context it seems much more like you're saying I see my own flaws in others... which is projecting... but again, I said in my last post I may be mistaken in my interpretation of what you meant and explained how I came to it.

As for flipping my own words... I guess? I see a lot more of you flipping around my words or taking my words out of context when the context was important (for example with the conceited comment you ignore the smart-alec response that provoked my comment)

but seriously... this is completely detracting from the point of this thread. If you don't have anything to add to it can we please stop talking in circles?
 

[Excitonex]

Not censure, condemn.... not sure why the colors changed there (copy / pasted it)

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/64363-i-am-sick-of-defense-heroes/page-14#entry685395

Granted, you were specifically talking about people who watch the pod die; but the way you presented it comes off as you, essentially, saying that person is a bad player because they do something out of rage. (emotional reactions aren't an accurate gauge of ability)

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/64363-i-am-sick-of-defense-heroes/?p=685604

Admittedly you didn't explicitly call people "bads" in those words, but you still imply you're better than other players and also imply that because I want a team all with line of sight on the pod I am lacking in ability and even jealous of people who fight in doorways. Doesn't change that you're basically just as conceited in how you present your posts there and here as I am... again, I don't have a problem with it I just find it funny considering. So while you didn't literally call people bads, you did imply it... I guess I shouldn't have worded it that way... I just didn't feel like making a huge post about it... like... I... am... now... -_-

-=-

in regards to the "third bit" / the end would you be referring to: b. To bring blame or discredit when you say reflecting? Because as I said before, in context it seems much more like you're saying I see my own flaws in others... which is projecting... but again, I said in my last post I may be mistaken in my interpretation of what you meant and explained how I came to it.

As for flipping my own words... I guess? I see a lot more of you flipping around my words or taking my words out of context when the context was important (for example with the conceited comment you ignore the smart-alec response that provoked my comment)

but seriously... this is completely detracting from the point of this thread. If you don't have anything to add to it can we please stop talking in circles?

 

If you don't find his points worthy of the thread then it would be best to ignore them instead of continuing the conversation.

[Bakim0n0]

If you don't find his points worthy of the thread then it would be best to ignore them instead of continuing the conversation.

It's hard for me to ignore someone directly addressing me. But it's more that we're stuck talking about the same points over and over and over again.

[Enot83]

You're not doing yourselves a favor putting out new stuff that has minor details glossed over; especially when you ask people to pay for it.

 

I couldn't agree more with this, U8 showed us that there was poorly designed reward systems in place, which effectively forced additional market purchases to have content properly tested in comparison to where we are even now (not that this is even the "correct" place to be).  We saw a number of situations where there was a massive lack of foresight.  Frankly had mistakes like that been made in the world I work in, you'd be called green.  At this stage of development and with the past experience, and bringing back that people are in a sense paying for some of this new content through the walling of said content like we saw in U8, mistakes like those of the Dojo materials, and reseting of accounts along with other problems that came about it is very disheartening.  As a beta tester, my beta feed back is, like the OP said, slow down and spend that extra day going over the content one more time to make sure that problems like these both do not re-occur nor do we see problems of this magnitude in the future.

 

These were not "unforseen" events that occured, or a "hindsight is 20/20" some of the things that occured were just oversights that shouldn't have occured, especially when and where money is involved.

 

Obviously I have no problem giving money toward this project, but I want the devs to know that mistakes like these, make me start to question that decision, as opposed to other things in the past that each time I saw something I felt like "ya I'm glad I put money towards this".

 

Defending these mistakes behind alpha and beta words doesn't even work well when money isn't involved, and even when it is or isn't. Again as beta testers, being dissatisfied and voicing why and what we would like to see change to keep the beta testing process a positive experience.  It should not be countered with "stop telling them what they did wrong or what should be done different, its only beta!", I'm not sure how much more ironic a statement like that can be.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Enot83

[KvotheTheArcane1]

They are thinking ahead. Increased playerbase also increases server costs (they've had to upgrade servers at least 3 times), and to go with that, the number of technical support staff, all of which are probably on salaries. 1 million is 20 people's salaries for a year @50k ea or 10 peoples for 2 years. And thats hardly the end of the costs. If you paid attention to the last livestream, they have also been pulling in more people for practically all the teams. I don't know how many people their income is spread across, but I can tell you it's not a huge amount. The fact is they have been constantly pushing to grow the community size to get more players (and thus more paying players) which basically points to a probable budget size etc. Its not like Steve and Scott take 500k each, build a money tower and dive into it like Scrooge Mc Duck. Do you have any idea how much it takes to run a company?

1 million, from grandmasters ALONE, he wasn't saying "they earned 1 million bucks, y no content" or something like that. What he's saying is they're making a decent bit, just from the founder's packages, not even counting the other platinum packs.

[Mhak]

It's hard for me to ignore someone directly addressing me. But it's more that we're stuck talking about the same points over and over and over again.

It's more like you saying "you said and/or implied this", followed by me saying "No I didn't", followed by you saying "you're attacking me and twisting my words", followed by me saying "No I wasn't", ad infinitum.

 

We could keep this going as long as you want but every point you made has been invalidated. Except the two half-points which you can certainly keep, for a total of one point.

 

Bottom line, I'll say it again - you're leaving a beta because of balance issues and I think that's completely silly. You don't have to explain or justify this to me; you already did. I'm not insulting you when I say I think it's silly. I just think the mechanics of what's going on makes no sense unless you're of the perspective that you paid for a released game with balance issues. This thread would make much more sense if that were the case, but it isn't. /opinions, /'Murica, ect

Edited June 18, 2013 by Mhak

[Bakim0n0]

Cool story.

[Mhak]

I'm debating on whether asking you why there's no bro at the end of the cool story, or saying that was way simpler than the novels we wrote.

 

In the end I've decided not to post anything at all, not even this post.

[Bakim0n0]

Simpler. Wanted to see if you'd respond to it for lulz.

in other news... the Kestral is the most OP melee weapon ever.

 

[Excitonex]

Simpler. Wanted to see if you'd respond to it for lulz.

in other news... the Kestral is the most OP melee weapon ever.

 

Shhhh, no one wants to nerf it yet.