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Harmony - Skill-Based Rewards For High Level Frames


notionphil
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After reading the ways to get affinity here are my concerns:  The stealth ones don't fit in currently because there isn't much of a real stealth mechanic right now which DE is aware of.  The run to a waypoint one obviously would just promote rushing.  The other combat ones make it so basically I'll spam the slide and only shoot things while sliding.  

There isn't much of a stealth mechanic as is, but something like Harmony could provide the incentive to actually do a stealth mission, something the game severely lacks right now. There are folks who do enjoy stealth every once in a while even in the game's current state, and rewarding them isn't a bad thing - especially since the system will still hold as stealth is refined.

There's no running to a waypoint. The Harmony is awarded for marking the waypoint, which looks to me like it's more there to encourage teamwork than anything else.

I don't see why you would just spam sliding when there's a large variety of ways with which to acquire Harmony through combat, like wallrunning and shooting in air. I've long wanted the game to start promoting and incentivizing gameplay that's more active than simply "stand still and shoot" or "hide behind box and plink at enemies". I suppose if sliding is comparably easier, one could award more Harmony for wallrunning or shooting in the air to compensate and encourage a mixture of all things.

Or even give a little bonus Harmony for varying your use of 'skillful' kills.

Finally, while I appreciate that you're giving constructive criticism instead of flaming the OP, that last line is just... an unfair generalization. I don't like the idea because it's long. Walls of text don't impress me; trust me, I participate in NaNoWriMo. I like it because it promotes aspects of gameplay I think are underutilised.

Edited by Quetzhal
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Thanks for your opinions - however, lets get some pesky facts out of the way:

 

-Neph valor exists to make you stick to a loadout and a level. this is a fact and not my opinion - The magic find+ is the carrot to help you do that.

 

Quote from Diablo Wiki "This (Nephalem Valor) system was implemented to encourage players to stick with a skill build of their choice, select an area of the game they enjoy, and sweep it for elite and champion packs on their way to a boss"

 

Harmony is not to intended to help you stick to a loadout and a level - it is for rewarding you for playing skillfully with a maxed frame.....so again.....not for the same purpose, or even mechanism as Neph valor, at all.

 

-There is no 'run to a waypoint' affinity reward that promotes rushing, you misread. The Spy reward is - 'be the first to Waypoint a Mod'. Meaning Hit 'G' and create a WP on a mod to show your team where it is.

 

-There is no combo meter, the Harmony indicator is only visible on your system map, and would slowly glow more intensly over time. One 'combo' would have no effect on it. It would take an entire play session to max it.

 

If you'd like to talk more about the 'in the zone part' please go on, but the other things were just factually incorrect.

 

My thoughts about 'the zone' is bascially saying, when Tenno are using their skills well, they are in the zone:

 

If you want to shoot things while sliding, I think thats fine...that is a skill based move. As is stealth killing. Not sure why you call these 'not in the zone'. I made the Affinity rewards directly from the list of the special skills that all Tenno have. Using skills well = in the zone IMO.

 

I'm assuming you don't play Diablo 3.  People don't kill bosses for loot.  Regardless of what Nephalem stacks were expected to do (not implimented actually for, if you quote something it has to be what they actually said) is not what happened.  People never bother fighting bosses in d3, they just have farm routes.  The changing of skills is negligable anyway, the main point is the magic find.  Nobody on blizzard's side actually cared if people were changing skills btw lol. 

 

Harmony is intended to give us magic find (like nephalem valor stacks) along with a few other buffs yes?  I don't see the craft time going in, that's not realistic unfortunately.  So once again, it's very very similar to nephalem valor stacks.

 

Sorry, I did read that part incorrectly about marking a mod.  (they'd have to make modules easier to hit with the G key lol which I'd support fully!)

 

You're limiting at what times a player can get kills.  I obviously won't kill anything unless i'm sliding, wall running, or jumping.  So i'll probably be sliding the most because its the easiest and a player will always take the path of least resistance.  If you increase the wall running or jumping harmony gain then I'll just do those instead of sliding.  When I'm going around quickly picking off enemies I'm usually just running and sometimes sliding.  Usually not wall running but if I see someone when I am I'll try to pick them off of course. 

 

A system like this makes me feel like I NEED to be wall running jumping or sliding.  Players don't like to be forced to do things.  In the zone to me means that you're going through a mission quickly and effeciently.  I'm not really seeing a "large variety" of ways to get harmony from combat.  Stealth stuff which I'm not going to do and the game's stealth would need a remake for it to be viable and the game is not going to be overhauled because a forum idea obviously, and then there is jumping, wall running, and sliding.  So 3 things I can viably do.  I don't really want to have to jump to kill something and I don't do that now unless I'm fighting hyena, I don't want to have to always look for a wall to run on before I kill something, so that leaves sliding being the dominant way to get harmony.

 

When I say skill meter I'm refering to what you just said about tenno using their skills well.  We don't have a huge pool of combinations or VIABLE things to do.  I can shoot things or slash things with a charge or regular attack.  I realize it would slowly build up but it's a skill meter nonetheless. 

 

Also why wouldn't people without level 30 equipment be able to do any of these things?  Do you need to deal a certain amount of damage or something with 1 shot/attack?  

 

The magic find idea is cool but you're giving DE an idea full of holes they'd have to fix.  Realistic forum ideas should be able to basically flow in the game without them having to remake the game around them.

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I'm assuming you don't play Diablo 3.  People don't kill bosses for loot.  Regardless of what Nephalem stacks were expected to do (not implimented actually for, if you quote something it has to be what they actually said) is not what happened.  People never bother fighting bosses in d3, they just have farm routes.  The changing of skills is negligable anyway, the main point is the magic find.  Nobody on blizzard's side actually cared if people were changing skills btw lol. 

 

Harmony is intended to give us magic find (like nephalem valor stacks) along with a few other buffs yes?  I don't see the craft time going in, that's not realistic unfortunately.  So once again, it's very very similar to nephalem valor stacks.

 

Sorry, I did read that part incorrectly about marking a mod.  (they'd have to make modules easier to hit with the G key lol which I'd support fully!)

 

You're limiting at what times a player can get kills.  I obviously won't kill anything unless i'm sliding, wall running, or jumping.  So i'll probably be sliding the most because its the easiest and a player will always take the path of least resistance.  If you increase the wall running or jumping harmony gain then I'll just do those instead of sliding.  When I'm going around quickly picking off enemies I'm usually just running and sometimes sliding.  Usually not wall running but if I see someone when I am I'll try to pick them off of course. 

 

A system like this makes me feel like I NEED to be wall running jumping or sliding.  Players don't like to be forced to do things.  In the zone to me means that you're going through a mission quickly and effeciently.  I'm not really seeing a "large variety" of ways to get harmony from combat.  Stealth stuff which I'm not going to do and the game's stealth would need a remake for it to be viable and the game is not going to be overhauled because a forum idea obviously, and then there is jumping, wall running, and sliding.  So 3 things I can viably do.  I don't really want to have to jump to kill something and I don't do that now unless I'm fighting hyena, I don't want to have to always look for a wall to run on before I kill something, so that leaves sliding being the dominant way to get harmony.

 

When I say skill meter I'm refering to what you just said about tenno using their skills well.  We don't have a huge pool of combinations or VIABLE things to do.  I can shoot things or slash things with a charge or regular attack.  I realize it would slowly build up but it's a skill meter nonetheless. 

 

Also why wouldn't people without level 30 equipment be able to do any of these things?  Do you need to deal a certain amount of damage or something with 1 shot/attack?  

 

The magic find idea is cool but you're giving DE an idea full of holes they'd have to fix.  Realistic forum ideas should be able to basically flow in the game without them having to remake the game around them.

 

I'm not going to debate Neph valor with you, especially when you are arguing with the Wiki not me. My quote was an actual quote 4th paragraph http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Nephalem_Valor - no idea why you think I misquoted. But if you want to feel that this idea is Neph Valor, go ahead.

 

You choose to see a Tenno as 'not having a huge pool of viable things to do' in combat...I strongly disagree. To you, there is no benefit to do any of those cool things, so you don't include them in the pool. Harmony provides that benefit.

 

RE: "A system like this makes me feel like I NEED to be wall running jumping or sliding.  Players don't like to be forced to do things "

 

You are not forced to play in a particular way to gain Harmony. In the zone means different things to different Tenno.

 

You said you prefer efficiency - you may have overlooked the first Affinity Reward - Annihilation, which is essentially a kill streak. You would be rewarded for killing things quickly and efficiently. It is clear that the Tenno were designed to be efficitent, quick killers. No trick shot req'd here.

 

The second is a headshot. Again, accurate and efficient. I consider that skill based play as well, again 'in the zone'. Another, Cripple, is disabling an enemy with a power and then killing him, or having an ally kill him. Again, not a trick shot.

 

However, Tenno are also designed to be agile, communicate instantly, and fight on a team. How do we know? We can shoot while running on a wall, WP things and instantly revive eachother with no items. Not every 'in the zone' action would be a trick shot :) but if you wanted challenge yourself to jump off of a wall and score a headshot, you would be recognized and given a little reward for it.

 

 

RE: Why do ppl have to be level 30 to do these things (get skill based rewards)? They dont, again you misread. You gain skill based Affinity no matter your gear level. However if your gear is under 30, half of that Affinity goes to help level your gear up and the other half goes to Harmony.

 

When you are using Mastered gear, (lv 30) then 100% goes to Harmony. So essentially you gain Harmony 2x as fast when using lv 30 loadout

 

RE: "stealth stuff which I'm not going to do"

 

If you personally don't like stealth (nor do i), that doesn't mean other players shouldn't be rewarded for using it.....Clearly it's in the Tenno's skill set for a reason. I didn't suggest this system specifically to suit your or my playstyle :)

 

I know stealth is kind of broken, but please re-read the stealth Affinity Rewards - they would be gainable in game as-is. You can get through a couple of rooms undetected at the moment. That would be rewarded [Ghost]. You can get stealth attacks currenty. That would be rewarded [Assassinate]. You can kill enemies without being undetected. That would be rewarded [Ambush]....

Edited by notionphil
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You CAN do stealth things as is but they're not fun to most people and if you're playing with randoms they probably aren't doable.  Killing every enemy I see isn't effeciency for farming (which is what most of the game is).  Much like when D3 first started out, it was better to destroy breakables than to kill enemies for rewards.  If I'm going for rare mats I'm going to be rushing to the bush breaking open containers and only killing what I need to.  I don't like being punished if I'm rushing either so maybe you could add in a quickness completion reward or something since it takes a bit of skill to finish a mission quickly.  HOWEVER, even that idea would be problematic with all the different warframe speeds that would be hard to work around.  

 

I'm not saying your ideas are bad and I'm sure you also realize they would need a lot of work to go in the game, but with how the game is (especially since it's still in beta) it's probably not the best to suggest ideas like this now because of how much changing the game would have to undergo to make this idea a good implimentation.  You said you strongly disagree with how much we have to do in combat but didn't list any examples.  If we were able to maybe chain skills together or abilities then yeah we'd have a TON of options, it would be a bit like that game Bulletstorm's system  (I'm pretty sure that was the name) where you could get skill kills.  At the moment we have stealth kills, headshots, shooting stuff, and slashing stuff, jump attacks, slide attacks, and wall run attacks.  That's not much variation to me.  

 

You're also going to have issues with the ideas of killstreaks with certain frames and there would have to be cooldowns on timers.  Killstreak + saryn = lots of harmony.  This idea just creates SO MUCH WORK.  I'd love some kind of system to increase drop rates but I think this idea would either need a lot of expanding ways to get affinity which I'm sure you're open to or would have to be gained in a simpler way like you get more harmony the less missions you leave, how long since your last death, or something like that which would all have problems to sort out as well.  It's good to have expansive ideas but I think DE really needs to make sure what they have is working smooth and while we all love warframe we all know the game is not close to smooth yet and ideas like this couldn't be implimented in anyway soon.  They still need to balance frames, movement, weapons, chat lag, optimize, and the list goes on.

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You CAN do stealth things as is but they're not fun to most people and if you're playing with randoms they probably aren't doable. Killing every enemy I see isn't effeciency for farming (which is what most of the game is). Much like when D3 first started out, it was better to destroy breakables than to kill enemies for rewards. If I'm going for rare mats I'm going to be rushing to the bush breaking open containers and only killing what I need to. I don't like being punished if I'm rushing either so maybe you could add in a quickness completion reward or something since it takes a bit of skill to finish a mission quickly. HOWEVER, even that idea would be problematic with all the different warframe speeds that would be hard to work around.

I'm not saying your ideas are bad and I'm sure you also realize they would need a lot of work to go in the game, but with how the game is (especially since it's still in beta) it's probably not the best to suggest ideas like this now because of how much changing the game would have to undergo to make this idea a good implimentation. You said you strongly disagree with how much we have to do in combat but didn't list any examples. If we were able to maybe chain skills together or abilities then yeah we'd have a TON of options, it would be a bit like that game Bulletstorm's system (I'm pretty sure that was the name) where you could get skill kills. At the moment we have stealth kills, headshots, shooting stuff, and slashing stuff, jump attacks, slide attacks, and wall run attacks. That's not much variation to me.

You're also going to have issues with the ideas of killstreaks with certain frames and there would have to be cooldowns on timers. Killstreak + saryn = lots of harmony. This idea just creates SO MUCH WORK. I'd love some kind of system to increase drop rates but I think this idea would either need a lot of expanding ways to get affinity which I'm sure you're open to or would have to be gained in a simpler way like you get more harmony the less missions you leave, how long since your last death, or something like that which would all have problems to sort out as well. It's good to have expansive ideas but I think DE really needs to make sure what they have is working smooth and while we all love warframe we all know the game is not close to smooth yet and ideas like this couldn't be implimented in anyway soon. They still need to balance frames, movement, weapons, chat lag, optimize, and the list goes on.

Actually, most of the systems for Harmony are already in game, except the UI for the light and the rewards (that might take some heavy lifting depending on how RNG and build time are calculated). They would just require retooling. It's not a super-light update, nor is it big. Examples:

entire Affinity Combat rewards system = current Challenge system, retooled (already tracks killstreaks, power usage, ubers, pickups etc)

player activity (kills, headshots etc) tracking = in game.

kill streak = in game.

headshot = in game.

stealth kill = in game.

detected vs not = in game.

affinity system XP reward =in game (needs tweak though).

notifications of XP rewards on kill = in game.

affinity gained through action = in game (hacking terminals)

etc...

The skeleton for Harmony is there - that's why I picked these elements.

See, you're still not getting Harmony - It's not about increasing drop rates. We could remove that component and the system would still exist...It's simply about rewarding skillful play with a maxed frame. Drop rate boost is just one of the rewards. It could just say 'good job, you killed the crap out of that corpus!' or give you a little glow. or some bonus XP. It's not simply a way to boost drop rates.

If you want to rush through a mission to farm mats that is fine, but you probably won't gain a lot of Harmony doing so. That is my intent, and I have a hypothesis that would be DE's intent too based on the way XP and numerous other systems work.

Many players actually enjoy trying to challenge themselves and do new things, not simply maximize their DPS/uberness/mats per second/mods per slot/ etc etc etc. Right now, the game does a pretty poor job of rewarding that. Harmony would help.

The list of items in the Affinity rewards is a pretty decent starting point of options that Tenno have to do in combat. My point is, they aren't recognized as 'things' by many players, possibly such as yourself, because there is no reward for doing so.

Sometimes it helps to see a reward a-la-bulletstorm ("hey you shot a guy in the head while he was on fire! good job!") so you can realize that is a 'thing'.

As per original post - Kills made with AOE abilities only count .25, so yeah you could rack up 5 points (from 20+ kills) on a well timed uber. That's not super OP. But each frame will have advantages. Vauban's Bastille will get lots of 'Crippled' kills, etc. Loki might get a lot of Ambush kills. Play with a few frames and see what feels 'In the zone' for you. Thats the point.

PS - if "stealth isn't fun to most people", why is a stealth fix the only sticked, and most upvoted thread in the Gameplay Feedback forum?

Edited by notionphil
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(psst, Notso spams everywhere :P (not really))

I'll take the support where I can get it! I'd love to see Harmony discussed in the livestream. If you feel the same, please remember to ask a Dev! Thanks.

Edited by notionphil
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I would add harmony for knockdowns? EG aoe melee/jump kicks/powers.  not just melee executes cause there are uses of it against bosses/ancients which DONT involve getting an actual kill from the knockdown.

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I would add harmony for knockdowns? EG aoe melee/jump kicks/powers.  not just melee executes cause there are uses of it against bosses/ancients which DONT involve getting an actual kill from the knockdown.

 

Annnddd...Added (slightly modified but, added). +1 to you sir.

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I really like the idea here, and think it would be a nice bonus... One question I have is: should the system be limited? You mention changing your build, and I understand the importance of swapping weapons; what about swapping warframes? If harmony is meant to symbolize how well you are operating the warframe, should it be limited to one warframe at a time? I could see swapping without going into missions, but it seems to me that it should break your "hot streak" if you play a mission with a different warframe.

 

I see a lot of positive and negative things that either choice makes... I would like to get others feedback though.

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I really like the idea here, and think it would be a nice bonus... One question I have is: should the system be limited? You mention changing your build, and I understand the importance of swapping weapons; what about swapping warframes? If harmony is meant to symbolize how well you are operating the warframe, should it be limited to one warframe at a time? I could see swapping without going into missions, but it seems to me that it should break your "hot streak" if you play a mission with a different warframe.

 

I see a lot of positive and negative things that either choice makes... I would like to get others feedback though.

 

Hi Halofury,

 

I definitely see the logic and consistency in the system being limited to one build. However, my goal with Harmony is to balance Mastery and make players feel good about playing their maxed level frames without penalizing or removing reasons to expand/explore their arsenal.

 

We can contextualize Harmony like riding the high of a perfect performance, even when you're no longer on stage, you still feel like you're on top of the world when you're on the way home, sitting on your couch, etc...at least for a while. Then you'll need to hit the stage again to re-gain that buzz.

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I quite like this idea. +1 and all that.

 

 

I do have a couple of suggestions, however! I like the idea of the "spy" action, as that encourages team-play. I'm all for that, and so I'd suggest some other actions.

 

"Spotter" for example, could be a (minor) bonus a Tenno would get if an enemy they marked with a waypoint is killed by an ally.

 

"Double-Team" (or maybe "Assistance"? "Flanking Action"?) would be a reward for kill-assists (which are already tallied, I believe).

 

I'm sure there's lots of other options to encourage team-play, as well as reward other kinds of gameplay. "Untouchable", perhaps, a reward for Tenno who get through a mission without taking any health damage? Who knows.

 

Anyhow, this is a good idea. It deserves attention.

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Not too sure about this idea because, in my case, I have a very different definition of 'in the zone' for my missions.  When I'm really in the zone, I'm not actually killing anything, I'm blasting through the entire level like a chipmunk on crack being chased by a grain thresher, doing crazy flips, spins, dodges, and slides to get in, get done, and get out of the level at the fastest possible speed.  I've done missions on Pluto with a level 5 Trinity frame with no mods through raw, unadulterated speed and evasive maneuvering.  I'd say doing that (especially in a Corpus mission) is also a great indicator of skill, highly valued by Tenno, but it's not reflected anywhere in the system.

 

I also don't think 'Harmony-exclusive' items are a good idea.  You want to reward the skillful, but by rewarding them with mods that make Harmony easier to get and maintain you create something of a backwards system where it's easier to get it the more of it you have because getting it also gives you the tools to get it more effectively.

 

The rest of it sounds good though, and with some tweaking I could get behind the system.

Edited by Trylobyte
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This really is a well thought out idea, and I like it.

 

that said, I think a much easier to implement system (perhaps something more easily realized to keep us satisfied while we wait on a more intricate system such as the one you've suggested) would be to just give mastery when re-ranking forma'd gear.

 

 

DE sells more forma, you get to keep gaining mastery while sticking with your favorite gear, and that gear gets stronger each time you re-rank it.

 

Seems like a win-win to me, and I imagine it would be pretty simple to code such a change 

Edited by TickTockMan
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This really is a well thought out idea, and I like it.

 

that said, I think a much easier to implement system (perhaps something more easily realized to keep us satisfied while we wait on a more intricate system such as the one you've suggested) would be to just give mastery when re-ranking forma'd gear.

 

 

DE sells more forma, you get to keep gaining mastery while sticking with your favorite gear, and that gear gets stronger each time you re-rank it.

 

Seems like a win-win to me, and I imagine it would be pretty simple to code such a change 

 

Hi TickTockMan,

 

Thanks for your suggestions. The problem with giving players mastery for forma'd gear are that :

 

1) Currently, there is a fixed amount of Mastery available in game. That is by design, not by mistake. If you can earn unlimited mastery by any means, such as what you suggested, this will throw the system off and allow players to gain infinite mastery. You may say, so what? Well that will prevent DE from tying mastery to other bonuses/perks later on, if they so choose to.

 

2) The point of mastery is to motivate you to explore the games various frames and weapons. If one could gain mastery by sticking with one loadout, some players would get bored more quickly than they realize. Same reason why it's not fun to play videogames in godmode...the optimal playing experience isn't usually the most fun one - you need to be challenged and explore the game world to have fun.

 

Your idea would remove any need to ever change loadouts, which would make players less likely to explore alternate gear and possibly really enjoy it. The goal of Harmony is to reward players for using their high level frames skilfully, without undermining the Mastery mechanic.

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It might not be necessary to make a change like this, considering that they said in the latest livestream that they were looking in to making mastery ranks confer greater benefits than unlocking weapons.

 

I would like something for using maxed frames or weapons but the kinds of bonuses you propose are excessive. They would only lead to everyone only playing a single frame and loadout because mastery rank is at present pointless once you get above a certain very low, easily achievable number. Why try every weapon in the game when you can get a 25% higher chance at rare mods, exclusive rare mods or never have to wait for crafting? And finally...DE needs some way to incentivize platinum purchases. Enormous advantages like this basically eliminate the uncertainty and time sink that induce people to pay platinum.

 

So basically, I would want mastery rank to confer a lot of the bonuses you propose, though at a diminished strength (even though you claim the bonuses provided by harmony are subtle they seem game-changing in a very blatant way), while a prospective harmony system to convert affinity/experience into something usable by maxed frames/weapons could do something similar, though I think most of the bonuses granted by it should be mostly cosmetic/vanity.

Edited by holdenagincourt
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It might not be necessary to make a change like this, considering that they said in the latest livestream that they were looking in to making mastery ranks confer greater benefits than unlocking weapons.

 

I would like something for using maxed frames or weapons but the kinds of bonuses you propose are excessive. They would only lead to everyone only playing a single frame and loadout because mastery rank is at present pointless once you get above a certain very low, easily achievable number. Why try every weapon in the game when you can get a 25% higher chance at rare mods, exclusive rare mods or never have to wait for crafting? And finally...DE needs some way to incentivize platinum purchases. Enormous advantages like this basically eliminate the uncertainty and time sink that induce people to pay platinum.

 

So basically, I would want mastery rank to confer a lot of the bonuses you propose, though at a diminished strength (even though you claim the bonuses provided by harmony are subtle they seem game-changing in a very blatant way), while a prospective harmony system to convert affinity/experience into something usable by maxed frames/weapons could do something similar, though I think most of the bonuses granted by it should be mostly cosmetic/vanity.

I think you may have misunderstood? Harmony is for a maxed frame...so would have nothing to do with bonuses DE is adding to mastery.

We already have good reasons to gain mastery , but sure more = better. However there is currently little reward for using your maxed frame. And remember harmony is temporary but applies to your whole account. The idea would be to 'turn it on' w your skillful play of a maxed frame then go level your new gear.

Also 100% crafting time increase meant a 12h craft takes 6, not 0. 25% rare drop increase means a 2% drop chance becomes 2.5%. Not exactly earth shattering but still noticeable and something a hardcore player can appreciate

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