De, Why You Need Stronger Enemies And Why Specialization Is Good

[Datareaper]

Nothing in this game is super hard, or even kind of hard.  Provided you have redirection and a decent weapon leveled to 30 and a couple of potatoes between them.

 

First I'll bring up the fact of mods.  More specifically mods like Diamond Skin, Poison Resistance, Knockdown Damage Reduction and Acrobat.

General opinion is that they suck.

I won't contest that opinion, in fact I share it.

But the solution is not and should never be "Buff the living S#&$ out of them".  Theres a literal elephant in the room called Power Creep.  Power Creep is bad because it trivializes a lot of the game unless the entire game gets buffed along with the specific mod.  It's far more sensible to nerf the offending THING and preserve a majority of the game without having to radically change everything.

 

Now to address the other half of this issue.  The enemies of warframe.  They suck too.  Not story wise or aesthetically speaking.  But power level wise they're weak as all get out.

Even on a level 40ish infested level I can just spam my right mouse button charge attacks using a gram to clear vaste swathes of infested enemies of all sorts.  The damn thing does a bazzillion damage, stuns everything it hits and applies a slowing freeze to all of them.

Part of the problem is the fact you seem kind of caged into generic third person shooter rules.  Like enemies that slowly plod around taking shots at you out in the open or from cover with easily targetable weakpoints.  Maybe they stagger you if you get to close or full on knockdown.  The enemies that melee you all have low hitpoints and anything with more hitpoints or close to "A lot" of hitpoints moves like a semi truck stuck in first gear.

You can do a hell of a lot better than that.

 

I will propose a hypothetical situation.  I dislike doing these because it creates an imaginary situation arms race so I discourage people to follow my example.  I do this only to illustrate my point.

 

Lets say you have a new type of Infested enemy.  A super Ancient.

Super Ancients protect their weak points in most situations.   Are fast movers and attack you with a series of quick lashing whip attacks that possess no inherent stunning ability.  But they can do these whip attacks while moving, so they're excellent chasers.  They also come in the Toxic variety.  The biggest threat is their ability to fire out a thick tentacle from their chest to knock players down, once down they deal an enormous amount of damage with their constant whip or claw attacks.  They cannot be stunned or staggered

Players for the most part would be very outclassed by such an enemy.

Now what if Poison resistance and Knockdown DR were both buffed to 75%?  You would maybe sacrifice a stamina mod and perhaps a power buffing mod to make room for those.

You are now SPECIALIZED for fighting that sort of enemy.  YOU WILL NOT BE BEATEN BY THEM EASILY.  YOU ARE YOUR TEAMS FIRST AND LAST LINE OF DEFENSE against that sort of enemy.

 

Now if the "Super Ancient" didn't exist?

We would be where we are now.

Against the current enemies in the game theres absolutely no reason to have a 75% poison resistance mod or a Knockdown damage resistance mod.  Because theres no reason to specialize fighting something you can splatter against a wall with a maxed out Gorgon in three seconds.

 

The reason those mods are as weak as they are, is because those enemies are weak as well.

 

So DE, I tell you this.

You need faster enemies, You need enemies that do not have weakpoints.  You need enemies that are both FAST and DURABLE.  You need enemies that focus on AREA DENIAL and FLUSHING OUT players.  You need enemies who can stand toe to toe with a warframe in melee.  You need enemies that allow your normal enemies to become a huge threat (Grineer Commander Im looking at you).  You need enemies that are so dangerous they need to die immediately, but hide behind literal SWARMS of enemies.  You need enemies that are difficult to kill and need a lot of space to engage that forces players to RUN FOR THEIR LIVES.

These things shouldn't be reserved for boss fights.

These enemies don't need to have 100000000 hitpoints to be challenging.

But they do need to fight what your players are doing.  And in turn you can allow your players to specialize in defeating them.

I can use any weapon or frame in the game at 30, against any faction of enemy I want.  And obliterate them with the greatest of ease.  I don't need to specialize and can just focus on dealing the most damage possible.  And either wipe out an entire room with my 4 or hold down mouse button 1 until everything before me is dead.

We both know thats not what you want, and I've said my piece on it.  The rest is up to you DE.

[Plaxinov]

tl;dr

 

No really, i'm kidding.

 

Absolutely. I feel that having make-and-break varieties of enemies that do honestly have the potential to rapidly and painfully murder an entire group who really don't feel like being at the top of their game would be a great thing. As of now the game is, as aforementioned, a reasonably mindless TPS where you gun down swathes upon swathes of overly generic, horrendously less than challenging standard enemies.

 

The closest thing resembling any form of "FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO LIVE" I've had in Warframe in a great long while was just yesterday when I was running through a 223 enemy T3 Orokin Tower Exterminate solo with a Rhino. In which after a bunch of slipups and oversight in bringing enough shotgun ammo boxes, along with numerous grineer heavy gunners I was down to my final revive, but remained resolute to power through regardless of the 70 or so that still remained. I ended up getting pinned the F*** down in what was the final major fight room and was forced to whip out my horrendously underpowered Lex for these sort of situations and lame it out, relying on some of the traps activated throughout the atrium to gun these enemies down and not get turned into paste. I ended up doing it, but with 27 HP left beneath my 1050 shields.

 

But I don't think that those sorts of down-to-the-wire crazy fun situations should come out of purely artificial difficulty stemming from jacked up shield and health pools with massively scaled damage.

 

It should arise from crazy cool enemies capable of wrecking your S#&$ with asymmetric tactics and displacement ability, ruining any plans you might have had to deal with them on immediate contact with diverse AI and abilities.

[http404error]

I see what you're getting at and I like it! I personally feel like the newer enemies are a step in the right direction.

[Anipsy]

While i agree with your well formatted wall of text, think of those poor console players and their clumsy controllers that they use for aiming, the game is probably already set on god mode for them. Those E3 gameplay videos for example - players had so much trouble shooting straight, that they had to actually resort to using class abilities to kill stuff (sic!) and melee as well.

[Datareaper]

Console players aren't handicapped.

Halo games on legendary aren't exactly a pushover.

[Winterbraid]

Difficulty is always subjective. For example, a Corrupted Fusion MOA in a solo T3 mission is already such a 'needs to die immediately' enemy to me.

 

Add more enemies like that, and you will end up having to tweak them immediately or removing them from solo mode (Nervos come to mind) because people will start complaining that they can't solo anymore. And I don't think Warframe has quite enough of a regular player base to be able to afford to alienate solo players.

 

The way I see it, coop in a game that also has solo mode has to be relatively easy (assuming you have a full semi-competent team), otherwise what's the point in playing coop? The thing is, the majority of gamers (and I'm among them) don't really want the kind of challenge that will chew them up and spit them out, they want a mostly seamless experience.

 

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I'm all in for adding new enemies. But adding enemies that are fast, hard to kill, do crazy damage, can stun you, have no weaknesses, AND demand a very specific combination of mods from the already very unbalanced mod pool to combat them effectively, isn't the right  direction. Because that's just the existing enemies on steroids, not new enemies.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Winterbraid

[Enot83]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in for adding new enemies. But adding enemies that are fast, hard to kill, do crazy damage, can stun you, have no weaknesses, AND demand a very specific combination of mods from the already very unbalanced mod pool to combat them effectively, isn't the right  direction.

 

This, exactly this.  I could have sworn too in the OP that there was mention of not wanting to do that, then turned around and suggested doing that exact thing.

 

This is highly counter productive to solo or being with less than 4 people.

 

Granted something like this as "end game" content that was recognized as requiring 4 people and was explicitly not intended to be solo'ed, perhaps, but again based solely around very specific mods? Not sure that's going to work well.  Doing something within the level that gave players choices for roles they may undertake might be a better approach other than.

[Khranitel]

OP

In other words, DE, take a look at Mass Effect 3 multiplayer. A very, very close look.

This is a game where single mook can kill you in 2 seconds, and you will hear higher enemies' approaching sounds in your nightmares (yup, Banshee scream). Yet in this same game you can be invincible, if you build your character well, tune in your weapon and think some time about your tactics and teamwork.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Khranitel

[Winterbraid]

In other words, DE, take a look at Mass Effect 3 multiplayer. A very, very close look.

This is a game where single mook can kill you in 2 seconds, and you will hear higher enemies' approaching sounds in your nightmares (yup, Banshee scream). Yet in this same game you can be invincible, if you build your character well, tune in your weapon and think some time about your tactics and teamwork.

 

Excuse me, but why aren't you playing Mass Effect 3 multiplayer instead of Warframe then? I'm not saying Mass Effect 3 multiplayer isn't good (I cannot tell because I haven't played it), but that game A is good doesn't mean that the game B (which shares some themes with A) suddenly needs to become just like A.

 

I mostly like Warframe the way it is, and I don't think having more enemies that can kill me in 2 seconds would be conducive to my entertainment. Difficulty is subjective; making it just hard enough for some will make it too hard for others, and in the meanwhile, the developers need to come out on top somehow.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Winterbraid

[Enot83]

In other words, DE, take a look at Mass Effect 3 multiplayer. A very, very close look.

This is a game where single mook can kill you in 2 seconds, and you will hear higher enemies' approaching sounds in your nightmares (yup, Banshee scream). Yet in this same game you can be invincible, if you build your character well, tune in your weapon and think some time about your tactics and teamwork.

 

Until you get sync killed from 8 meters away, unless you've been hiding in the box of shame the whole time ~_^

 

Don't just copy ME3, your exact explanation ironically was the opposite for my friends and I... we always ran toward the screams to see who could kill it first.

 

ME3 is great for what it was/is, Warframe is great for what it is and is moving toward, lets not muddy with water with the numerous problems that plagued ME3.

[Khranitel]

Excuse me, but why aren't you playing Mass Effect 3 multiplayer instead of Warframe then? I'm not saying Mass Effect 3 multiplayer isn't good (I cannot tell because I haven't played it), but that game A is good doesn't mean that the game B (which shares some themes with A) suddenly needs to become just like A.

 

I mostly like Warframe the way it is, and I don't think having more enemies that can kill me in 2 seconds would be conducive to my entertainment.

I played it for almost a year. With others hundreds of thousands people. And this was a pure PvE game, and also paid one. This fact could tell you something about quality of it, and why DE could use something from it as example.

Also if the part about 2 seconds kill is all you that you understood from my previous post, then you probably must learn how to read more than 5 words at a time.

 

Until you get sync killed from 8 meters away, unless you've been hiding in the box of shame the whole time ~_^

 

Don't just copy ME3, your exact explanation ironically was the opposite for my friends and I... we always ran toward the screams to see who could kill it first.

 

ME3 is great for what it was/is, Warframe is great for what it is and is moving toward, lets not muddy with water with the numerous problems that plagued ME3.

Remember your first 2 weeks ;)

Also, show me, where I used words "copy it" in my post. Please.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Khranitel

[shadowslayer695]

:D 1 thing to tell you. Stop playing Diablo 3 XD has those stuff on it the specialization stuff :P

[Enot83]

I played it for almost a year. With others hundreds of thousands people. And this was a pure PvE game, and also paid one. This fact could tell you something about quality of it, and why DE could use something from it as example.

Also if the part about 2 seconds kill is all you that you understand from my previous post, then you probably must learn how to read more than 5 words at a time.

For others reading, this is purely opinion. 

 

Truth is, ME3 had numerous flaws and problems and things that drove its players mad, the complaints about RNG in warframe make me laugh when you look at ME3.  It should not be the shining beacon for all games to copy, there are good things to learn from and bad things to learn from in that game.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Enot83

[NotBot]

I honestly think a difficulty system is whats necessary. I have far to easy of a time aside from some of the cheaper enemies, and even then I just end up putting everything to the sword. Meanwhile, some people have serious trouble with the Jackal, as I've seen from forum posts and online pugs when I was trying to farm up Rhino. I just feel the difficulty is incredibly wonky, and a difficulty system would be the only thing to resolve this. After all, why should anyone's standards of difficulty be forced down everyone else's throats?

[Nerokerubina]

I entirely agree that the enemies of this game need a buff and I also entirely agree about the pointless mods that they've given us, not only that but the artifacts as well.

 

It's like DE doesn't even play their own game for any long amounts of time. I'd like to have a full group of DE developers and workers sit along side of their fans and community and play an entire day of farming and GRINDING to get what they need.

[Khranitel]

For others reading, this is purely opinion. 

 

Truth is, ME3 had numerous flaws and problems and things that drove its players mad, the complaints about RNG in warframe make me laugh when you look at ME3.  It should not be the shining beacon for all games to copy, there are good things to learn from and bad things to learn from in that game.

Agree.

Two things that DE should not learn from ME3 are:

- Bioware's way of patching and fixing bugs;

- Trollstore ;)

But characters-weapons-powers synergy and weapons/enemy design are the things that DE should look at as example of how they can be made. Because when during one of livestreams I heard Steve talking about powers interaction with each other in Warframe, I feel that he has no clue about how it could work.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Khranitel

[Nerokerubina]

Agree.

Two things that DE should not learn from ME3 are:

- Bioware's way of patching and fixing bugs;

- Trollstore ;)

But characters-weapons-powers synergy and weapons/enemy design are the things that DE should look at as example of how they can be made.

 

And also not try and make this into a Dating Sim game

[Winterbraid]

I played it for almost a year. With others hundreds of thousands people. And this was a pure PvE game, and also paid one. This fact could tell you something about quality of it, and why DE could use something from it as example.

Also if the part about 2 seconds kill is all you that you understood from my previous post, then you probably must learn how to read more than 5 words at a time.

 

What I understood from your previous post is that Warframe is too simple in your opinion and that simplicity is inherently bad, so it should become more complex, like ME3 - and punish players for lousy builds or lack of team coordination.

 

I however personally don't like it when cooperative games are too complex and demanding because that makes it harder for me to get my friends to play them, especially if they can't devote as much time to gaming as I do.

 

Right now I can invite a friend and take them into a high level mission without ruining my run, making me feel like I'm wasting my time, or causing me or them too much frustration, even if they're newbish and lack some of the essential modules. I'm afraid that making the game more difficult would kill that aspect of it which I enjoy, so I'm more in for adding more variety rather than difficulty.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Winterbraid

[Datareaper]

The reason those mods are terrible and weak is because those enemies or afflictions are weak.  Maxed diamond skin at 15% is right in line with the fact Crewman do garbage damage and stand in the middle of rooms or leaning from around a corner with their gigantic heads.

 

Specialization adds depth to the game without compromising quality at all.  There absolutely should not be a master of everything build like we have now.  The only choices you have to make is whether to cram your warframe with extra stamina mods or things like stretch and streamline.

Also your reading into specializing too hard.  Specialization means you are fitted to combat and best that which you are kitted against.  It doesn't mean you are garbage against everything else.

Lets say in general players use Streamline and and Quick Rest, those help out with movement and power usage and could be seen as a general kit.  But now instead you run maxed diamond skin and Handspring when facing Corpus because Shockwave Moas are very dangerous.  This allows you to be more in their face and aggressive against them to beat them.  While a player without those two mods would have to play more cautious and get away from them.  Not get absolutely wrecked by them.

 

I played mass effect 3 multiplayer.  My favorite concept from it was combos and how a team of players could work together to blow stuff up really fast.  And the traps and area denial\control abilities to help their teams flanks.  Even the extremely durable characters were literal tanks, drawing enemy fire away from more lethal but fragile allies.

This game has none of that.  We are all self contained killing machines who have no need for each other and race from kill to kill with the greatest of ease.  I've run the Void over 200 times and done defense waves near 40, this game is not hard and doesn't encourage team play as a result.  Its better to just kit yourself as the ultimate killing machine.

[Tangerine]

I would like more difficulty, but I want difficulty that isn't "enemy bullet sponges with stupid CC" or "Enemy with stupid amounts of damage" (fyi enemies should be able to do stupid amounts of damage, but that damage should come from when you mess up like not dodging etc. Hitscan fire isn't a way to do it).

 

I think adding in combat behaviors for different types of enemies could be a way to go about this. I said this in another thread, but imagine that Grineer Commanders for example were able to give out buffs to nearby soldiers, that Grineer Shield Soldiers would band together in a phalanx formation where there's multiples of them, that Grineer Medics would always try and stay near the Grineer Commander.

 

Now the difficulty arises in the form of priority targets. You have to get past the phalax, kill the medic in order to stop him from healing the commander then kill off the commander in order to stop him for shooting at you and buffing the soldiers, all the while being shot at. Team work could then be encouraged in this scenario, trying to combat these tactics.

 

Uhhuashdu I'm just rambling.

[Liminal]

And also not try and make this into a Dating Sim game

But... awww :(

[gaurdianaq]

We need smarter enemies not stronger ones. If they can focus on improving the AI of enemies at higher levels rather than just beefing their level we'll be good.

[Datareaper]

Straight damage per second and vitality are not the only components of strength.  Intelligence and tactics are an equally important aspect of power.

Enemies having the ability to counter playstyles, powers and mod loadouts are a necessity to difficulty in this game.  Otherwise we just stay with the shooting fish in a barrel model we have now.

 

I realize this might be an unpopular opinion because many people have fun with this game right now due to how easy it is.  You can grab any warframe or weapon you want and cut a bloody path through any level, solo or in a group.  Its against human nature to want things to get harder.

But this game needs to become harder, because its outrageously easy right now.  The only things that ever kill me are lagging Ancients poison clouds and lag tentacle attacks.  Which are outside of my control to begin with.

 

I don't want raids.  I don't want the game to force you into groups or any sort of exclusion based content using numbers of players as a means to dictate and manage difficulty.  I want to be challenged, and rewarded fairly for it.

And I know a great deal many players who feel the same way.

[NalkorRN]

Console players aren't handicapped.

Halo games on legendary aren't exactly a pushover.

Not all console players play Halo and God of War. I @(*()$ love Demon's Souls and Dark Souls even more. Those two games, DkS especially, have actual difficulty in how the player is challenged. Here? It's like DE went to Bethesda's School for Balancing Video Games, which boils down to enemy groups in higher levels are stuffed with bullet sponges who dish out way too much damage and your weapons/abilities all do static amounts of usefulness and the enemies get scaling bullS#&$.

I just failed the shield disruption artifact defense mission twice, the first time was because the Frost player guarding the T-junction moved and started attacking a pair of distant Ancients (more on that later) that I already had under control, only after I saw the Ice Wave did I whip around and notice two chargers murdering the artifact because Mr. Shotgunning Frost moved from his spot and left it unguarded.

The second failure was because the last few waves became so damn full of (almost) nothing but all three kinds of Ancients. The higher the level mission (standard and defense), the more 'Elite Mooks' get thrown at the player. Not so bad in Corpus/Grineer when Frost has Snowglobe up, but for Infested? @(*()$ Ancient central.

Now someone wants a super ancient? These (existing Ancients) guys are already painful in small numbers, but in higher waves, they make up almost the entire enemy force and then the glaring problems with DE's lack of knowledge on proper balancing shows even greater. I have absolutely zero faith in DE being able to properly balance a Super Ancient and somehow keeping those kinds from flooding higher level defense mission. Don't get me wrong, I love the game, the warframes (even though the need tweaking), but I'm sorry, DE fails at creating a legitimate challenge and until they learn how, they need to stop introducing new and so-called harder enemy types for each faction.

[Datareaper]

Shoot ancient in the foot with a level 30 weapon using decent mods and even up to level 50 ancients will die in seconds.

Or you could just spam charge attacks with a heavy melee weapon to stun them forever.

 

You're failure is due to a crappy player, not any sort of advantage of strengths the enemies had.  Which in no way invalidates anything I've said.

Also thanks for reading too far into my example using an enemy type that doesn't exist and was never implied to be added.  It was a tool to show the usefulness of specializing and the depth it adds to gameplay.

And secondly if you have zero faith in DE why are you playing this game?  I have faith in them which is the main reason I offer feedback, because instead of being complacent with this game and its non existent difficulty I think it can be better.  Players should be challenged, and if they cannot rise to meet it they need to improve.

TLDR : Get gud