Heavy Grineer Radial Blast

[PaperAlien]

Is BS. Although I do agree they should have some method of dealing with melee attackers, the Radial Blast they use right now is really unpolished. Not only is the range rather high (especially when you run past the area and still get knocked down), but they also get stagger/knockdown immunity while they're doing it. It's really annoying when you're slidekicking them, and suddenly you just stop moving because they become completely immovable as they decide "lolnope ima groundpunch!". Yes, I know there's infinite other methods of dealing with them, I know that players also get this stagger/knockdown immune effect (although we have right to exclusively have that because it's 4vs many), and I know they're oh so many other things I should be complaining about (and I have). But that doesn't mean this particular mechanic is fine. This issue also shows up (less conspicuously imo) on ancients and shield lancers.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

I think it should be like Shockwave MOA stomp so you could avoild it by jumping.. Yeah, also remove Knockback mmunity, I want to slidekick them!

[Keiiken]

Yeah I hate when I'm slding through a group slashing away then go flying off in another direction. Yep its one of THEM!

[PaperAlien]

I think changing to the Shockwave Moa stomp might be overdoing it. They're heavy units, and they'd be wasting a lot of their firepower/time to use such a slow attack.

[Satwo]

they were given radial blast to stop rushers. considering youre complaining about them knocking you down as you rush past, id say its doing its job.

[R3leaZ]

I like how it is currently. It makes them a big threat. Dont get close to them or you'll face the consequences.

 

I don't want them nerfed. It's fine how it is now.

[PaperAlien]

they were given radial blast to stop rushers. considering youre complaining about them knocking you down as you rush past, id say its doing its job.

There are so many better ways to stop rushers. Case in point: I missed one of the obstacle courses in the Void because I ran past a level 70+ Heavy Gunner that I simply could not kill/incapacitate within the time limit. All because I ran past it and was out of the blast by the time it came. In most other rushing situations, it's fairly easy to run around them.

[CaveCricket48]

I think they're fine. As it is, we barely have any enemies that pose a challenge other than having bigger numbers (more enemies, more HP, more dakka, etc.)

[Madotsuki]

*sigh* so many elitists here. Would it be asking too much to swap the radial blast for a shockwave (doesn't need a longer wind-up like the moa, the animation is at the right speed right now) that you can jump over? Would allowing you the ability to actually dodge an attack once triggered make the game so easy there's no point in playing it anymore?

Heavies should be immune to knockdown (certain warframe abilities i.e. radial blast and special weapons i.e. Kestrel excluded), though not staggers, and their Radial Blast should actually be dodgeable. That won't make the game easy, that'll just make it more fair.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

I think changing to the Shockwave Moa stomp might be overdoing it. They're heavy units, and they'd be wasting a lot of their firepower/time to use such a slow attack.

Well, Kela uses Shockwave Moa stomp mechanic and she is just fine.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

Heavies should be immune to knockdown (certain warframe abilities i.e. radial blast and special weapons i.e. Kestrel excluded), though not staggers, and their Radial Blast should actually be dodgeable. That won't make the game easy, that'll just make it more fair.

 

I disagree, slidekick should knock them down. Otherwise there is no point in using it since most melee weapons are much better for jump attacks.

[Madotsuki]

I disagree, slidekick should knock them down. Otherwise there is no point in using it since most melee weapons are much better for jump attacks.

But this is a HEAVY unit we're talking about. They shouldn't be THAT easy to knock down. IMO, slidekicks should stagger them, which can interrupt their shooting, radial blasts and so forth. Light weapon jump attacks shouldn't do anything to them, while heavy jump attacks like with the Fragor should also do staggers. Only special weapons like the Kestrel or special abilities like Radial Blast should be able to knock them down.

[R3leaZ]

*sigh* so many elitists here. Would it be asking too much to swap the radial blast for a shockwave (doesn't need a longer wind-up like the moa, the animation is at the right speed right now) that you can jump over? Would allowing you the ability to actually dodge an attack once triggered make the game so easy there's no point in playing it anymore?

Heavies should be immune to knockdown (certain warframe abilities i.e. radial blast and special weapons i.e. Kestrel excluded), though not staggers, and their Radial Blast should actually be dodgeable. That won't make the game easy, that'll just make it more fair.

No. Heavies are heavies for a reason. You are meant to see them as a big threat. Even Lotus warns you of them. You are meant to stay aware of their presence. Sure I wouldnt mind them having a very small windup time to the radial blast but I dont want them to lose their aura-like radial blast. The game currently is already too easy (even when I just started playing) and it has an mmo like difficulty system. if you encounter enemies which are way too hard for you it's obvious that you dont have leveled/modded your gear enough to fight them properly or don't have the skill yet to fight them properly so practice more. This game is easy at first but gradually becomes harder like how it is meant to be.

 

 

I disagree, slidekick should knock them down. Otherwise there is no point in using it since most melee weapons are much better for jump attacks.

Some abilities dont work against bosses. Does that make them useless? No. They are situational. Same goes for slidekicks. They work against some enemies but not against Heavies. It should be like that since heavies are meant to be a threat .

Edited June 23, 2013 by R3leaZ

[Madotsuki]

No. Heavies are heavies for a reason. You are meant to see them as a big threat. Even Lotus warns you of them. You are meant to stay aware of their presence. Sure I wouldnt mind them having a very small windup time to the radial blast but I dont want them to lose their aura-like radial blast. The game currently is already too easy (even when I just started playing) and it has an mmo like difficulty system. if you encounter enemies which are way too hard for you it's obvious that you dont have leveled/modded your gear enough to fight them properly or don't have the skill yet to fight them properly so practice more. This game is easy at first but gradually becomes harder like how it is meant to be.

"Oh my GAWD, I can actually JUMP over the shockwave now with skill! THIS GAME IS RUINED"

Unavoidable attacks is not challenge. It's fake difficulty. Can you tell the difference between the two? The Radial Blast has nothing to do with your gear, or your skill, because once triggered it is nigh unavoidable. Making the shockwave actually avoidable with skill is perfectly fine in terms of challenge. Plus, what you people fail to comprehend is that the game is still in beta, and thus is subject to CHANGE. Enemy AI has miles of room for improvement right now, many more units and enemy variety can be added to increase the challenge in an interesting and fair way. It's like justifying stunlock as the only legit "challenge" in this game, when there are dozens of other ways to increase challenge and fun that can replace stunlock that are not nearly as fake in terms of difficulty.

[PaperAlien]

Well, Kela uses Shockwave Moa stomp mechanic and she is just fine.

Oh, you mean just the orange circle thing? I was talking about the really slow animation. Yeah, I guess using that shockwave mechanic would work, using the ground-punch animation. Maybe make the shockwave a bit larger.

 

Also, I do agree heavy grineer should not so so vulnerable to knockdown (slide attacks would be rather overpowered on them if this change is implemented). Not entirely sure how to fix that though. Maybe the stagger-only idea would work. As long as I don't get lolnoped by an animation when I started my attack first.

[R3leaZ]

"Oh my GAWD, I can actually JUMP over the shockwave now with skill! THIS GAME IS RUINED"

Unavoidable attacks is not challenge. It's fake difficulty. Can you tell the difference between the two? The Radial Blast has nothing to do with your gear, or your skill, because once triggered it is nigh unavoidable. Making the shockwave actually avoidable with skill is perfectly fine in terms of challenge. Plus, what you people fail to comprehend is that the game is still in beta, and thus is subject to CHANGE. Enemy AI has miles of room for improvement right now, many more units and enemy variety can be added to increase the challenge in an interesting and fair way. It's like justifying stunlock as the only legit "challenge" in this game, when there are dozens of other ways to increase challenge and fun that can replace stunlock that are not nearly as fake in terms of difficulty.

Like I said. A small windup time would be nice since currently it does have a windup time but it's very VERY short (You can dodge it but lag will still get you hit).

"Unavoidable attacks are not a challenge." That's not true since you can actually expect it to happen if you get too close to them. You can also foresee a shield lancer bashing you since, sure you actually need to get hit. But what is the difference with that too heavies? You just dont get close to them if you actually use common sense.

On your first time you learn that heavies knock you down when you get too close -> You obviously REFRAIN from getting close to them next time or retreat when they charge for you just like with Shield Lancers.

Off-topic: Yay 400th post.

Edited June 23, 2013 by R3leaZ

[Madotsuki]

Like I said. A small windup time would be nice since currently it does have a windup time but it's very VERY short (You can dodge it but lag will still get you hit).

 

"Unavoidable attacks are not a challenge." That's not true since you can actually expect it to happen if you get too close to them. You can also foresee a shield lancer bashing you since, sure you actually need to get hit. But what is the difference with that too heavies? You just dont get close to them if you actually use common sense. 

 

On your first time you learn that heavies knock you down when you get too close -> You obviously REFRAIN from getting close to them next time or retreat when they charge for you just like with Shield Lancers.

There is such a huge difference between the Radial Blast and the Shield Lancer, because there are multiple ways to actually dodge a Shield Lancer once he starts charging at you. Sprint around him, shoot him down before he reaches you, kick him down or even joust him with melee. THAT is fun and interesting. With the Heavy's Radial Blast, there is only one thing you can do: Don't trigger it. I mean, we have melee weapons for a reason, we should be allowed to use them! Even with Toxic Ancients, you can still melee them without getting the hell CC'ed out of you, and with a melee weapon with long enough reach (i.e. Orthos) you can even melee them without being poisoned. Sure, Heavies should have a retaliation against melee attackers, but it shouldn't be an unavoidable lolnope denial.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

 

 

Some abilities dont work against bosses. Does that make them useless? No. They are situational. Same goes for slidekicks. They work against some enemies but not against Heavies. It should be like that since heavies are meant to be a threat .

 

Oh, tell me more about sutiational niche slidekick. It is a fact that it is already useless and much harder to use compared to melee weapons. The only reason I see is using it with weapons that can't knockback on jump attack (Ethers, Orthos). 

Edited June 23, 2013 by 3XT3RM1NATUS

[R3leaZ]

There is such a huge difference between the Radial Blast and the Shield Lancer, because there are multiple ways to actually dodge a Shield Lancer once he starts charging at you. Sprint around him, shoot him down before he reaches you, kick him down or even joust him with melee. THAT is fun and interesting. With the Heavy's Radial Blast, there is only one thing you can do: Don't trigger it. I mean, we have melee weapons for a reason, we should be allowed to use them! Even with Toxic Ancients, you can still melee them without getting the hell CC'ed out of you, and with a melee weapon with long enough reach (i.e. Orthos) you can even melee them without being poisoned. Sure, Heavies should have a retaliation against melee attackers, but it shouldn't be an unavoidable lolnope denial.

Yes. You have melee weapons for a reason but they are situational just like a lot of other things. I also dont always use snipers when there are a bunch of infested surrounding me --> I switch to melee or switch to fast fire pistols. Heavy gunners have a radial blast yes. But that ability HAS A VERY LONG COOLDOWN. If they would change that to Kela's version sure I would be fine with that. But they would need to drastically reduce the cooldown. Heavy Gunners are meant to be finished off from range (or while invisible with Loki or Ash) . Melee is situational, just like a lot of other things.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

On your first time you learn that heavies knock you down when you get too close -> You obviously REFRAIN from getting close to them next time or retreat when they charge for you just like with Shield Lancers.

 

 

Lol, comparing cheap-&#! HG's Radial Blast with perfectly balanced Shield Lancer's shield bash. Why not with Mine Osprey?

[R3leaZ]

Oh, tell me more about sutiational niche slidekick. It is a fact that it is already useless and much harder to use compared to melee weapons. The only reason I see is using it with weapons that can't knockback on jump attack (Ethers, Orthos). 

I wouldnt mind that slidekick would stagger a boss or heavy. But I dont want them to actually knock them down. Heavies are meant to be a high threat. If you knock them down and include an ice elemental they are aswell done for.

 

 

Lol, comparing cheap-&#! HG's Radial Blast with perfectly balanced Shield Lancer's shield bash. Why not with Mine Osprey?

Yea sure the Radial Blast could use a windup time (not too long) but they shouldnt take away the aura-like blast.

 

Shield lancers have a quite low cooldown period on their bash while radial blast has an extremely long cooldown period.

Edited June 23, 2013 by R3leaZ

[Madotsuki]

Yes. You have melee weapons for a reason but they are situational just like a lot of other things. I also dont always use snipers when there are a bunch of infested surrounding me --> I switch to melee or switch to fast fire pistols. Heavy gunners have a radial blast yes. But that ability HAS A VERY LONG COOLDOWN. If they would change that to Kela's version sure I would be fine with that. But they would need to drastically reduce the cooldown. Heavy Gunners are meant to be finished off from range (or while invisible with Loki or Ash) . Melee is situational, just like a lot of other things.

When they decide to give pistols infinite ammo then you can say melee weapons should be non-viable against certain enemies.

I'm not exactly sure what the cooldown time is, though if it's jumpable i'd say a 10 second cooldown is fine. And instead of a weak nudge like all the other medium units, up close Heavies should be able to swat at you with their guns for higher damage and knock-back. The swats should be avoidable of course.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

I wouldnt mind that slidekick would stagger a boss or heavy. But I dont want them to actually knock them down. Heavies are meant to be a high threat. If you knock them down and include an ice elemental they are aswell done for.

 

 

Yea sure the Radial Blast could use a windup time (not too long) but they shouldnt take away the aura-like blast.

 

Shield lancers have a quite low cooldown period on their bash while radial blast has an extremely long cooldown period.

 

Actually, yes, slidekick staggering a heavy and interupting his blast would be good. Even better than knockback.

 

As for Radial Blast I think it should be like Shields Lancer bash in terms of being avoidable and with low cooldown. See Kela's shockwave with 9-10 sec cooldown.

[Wooffgang]

I don't want to sound like a elitist but there is a way to stop it.

 

As long as you have at least one of your frame powers up you can do it. Lets say you play Frost. Triggering your First skill the moment he hits the ground will stop you from getting knocked down because of the Skill animation I-Frames. This works with almost any ability. You just need to have perfect timing.

 

Back on topic. The radial blast on contact is a silly concept still. As soon as you are aprox 3m from it it starts it. Now that is just bad programming. The heavy doesn't care if it is swarmed from all sides by your team. It will just use the ability when you get too close to it. Rather try to make it smarter. Because right now it has no idea when to use it.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Kyryu

[R3leaZ]

I don't want to sound like a elitist but there is a way to stop it.

 

As long as you have at least one of your frame powers up you can do it. Lets say you play Frost. Triggering your First skill the moment he hits the ground will stop you from getting knocked down because of the Skill animation I-Frames. This works with almost any ability. You just need to have perfect timing.

 

Back on topic. The radial blast on contact is a silly concept still. As soon as you are aprox 3m from it it starts it. Now that is just bad programming. The heavy doesn't care if it is swarmed from all sides by your team. It will just use the ability when you get too close to it. Rather try to make it smarter. Because right now it has no idea when to use it.

That last part made me lol. Yes I agree that the AI needs to get brains.