Ogris - Facts

[LazyKnight]

I solo 99% of the time and the Dojo-centric content has increased my enjoyment of the game.

 

FYI: Did you know that you can join a clan, contribute to the Dojo, and use Clan weapons without ever playing with another player?

 

Because you can.

I crash if chat stays on that makes it kind of problematic. I do not care enough to purse a work around and have other thing to do thanks anyway.

Edited June 30, 2013 by LazyKnight

[seth]

In my mind then, higher-mastery weapons should be more specialized side-grades or weapons with new mechanics, not upgrades to old weapons.

 

Now, you might say, "Well that's all well and good, but look at the extremely expensive clan weapons or the prime weapons in the Void.  Shouldn't they deserve to be more powerful because of how exorbitantly expensive they are?"  Well, no.  You see, players consume the content in this game extremely quickly.  At lower ranks, it naturally makes sense to allow faster player progression, but as time goes on, players advance in mastery and would like new weapons to show for it.  Also recall that at this time, the game doesn't actually have end-game.  Now consider again the value of having higher-mastery equipment cost more resources.  It necessarily slows the consumption of content and slows the cries for more stuff as people aren't getting everything as quickly.  This also promotes more rushing things in the foundry and the use of forma in them, both of which mean more sales for DE.  

 

If people are consuming content too quickly, it is not unreasonable have content be consumed slower, especially at this point in the game's development where the only lategame is farming.  I can attest that after building my Acrid, I experienced a huge dropoff in desire to play the game.  I'm hoping that U9 will provide polish enough that I'll be able to enjoy just being a ninja again until endgame is finally added.

 

If Supra is just a sidegrade to Gorgon, for instance, there's precious little reason to spend the metric truckload of resources it takes to get when you can just drop a seventh of the resources for a Gorgon. Well, unless you like the look of it or something. But for most people, aesthetics don't trump days to weeks of farming. It does no good to slow down the consumption rate of content if the content itself isn't worth consuming to begin with.

And to be worth consuming, the content needs to be noticeably better than more easily acquired content. Maybe not better in every metric (eg Braton Mark 1 is more accurate and has a bigger magazine than the Standard), but better in many respects.

I've used this example before, but Mass Effect 3 did this fairly well. On one hand you had the Mattock. It's a solid gun, in the second tier of rarity (and thus difficulty in acquisition). On the other, you have the Harrier, which is an ultrarare full auto version of the Mattock. When you got the Harrier, it felt like a major step up from the Mattock, even if its ammo pool was effectively much smaller. In every other way, the Harrier was superior to the Mattock, and this was good, because it allowed players to feel like they were making progress. They could look at their manifest and feel a sense of accomplishment, remembering back when they had nothing but some starter guns.

The problem being that if the difficult to acquire guns aren't noticeably better than the entry level ones, less people are going to feel compelled to get them in general. Slowing the consumption speed of content sounds good and all, but when the content itself isn't worth using compared to what's already available, people aren't going to use it. Example: How many people use the machete? The prova? The dual cleavers? New content that's inferior to current offerings which nobody actually uses. How about the Ignis? A gun that's by all rights terrible, but which requires a huge amount of resources to make. I for one have only seen two people use it. One, a pug, who was clearly testing it out. And one of my clanmates who was leveling it purely for mastery. At present, the only reason people even research it is because they haven't heard how badly it sucks, or they need it as a prereq for Ogris.

 

At the moment, I think that the Ogris' power is generally in a good place when considering the amount of effort and time it took to acquire it. I as a player want to be rewarded for putting in lots of effort and time, and Ogris does that. It could be tweaked - I'd trade blast radius for more consistently applied damage, but in terms of effectiveness, it's right at where a mastery 6 gun that takes bazillions of resources and time and a rare resource should be.

I think it could stand to use sniper ammo (though it's kind of unnecessary except from a verisimilitude standpoint since even 70 rockets ala Paris arrows will probably be plenty) and that its 'silenced' trait should be removed too.

Personally, I think a hybrid system would be better as far as general sidegrade vs upgrade goes in general.

Like, you've got several tiers. Tier 1 is starters, and all starters are competitive with other starters. Tier 2 is braton, grakata, dera, and such like. All of them getting their costs vaguely normalized, and being competitive with each other, but generally superior to T1 guns. Then at T3 you've got Gorgon, Hek, etc. Same deal as before. Then at T4 you've got your top shelf weapons like Kunai, Supra, Ogris, Orthos, Scindo, etc.

Each gun is competitive within its tier, but clearly better than the tier before it. Not better in every way (eg Braton Mk1's mag and accuracy vs Braton Standard's damage and ROF - with mods you can almost turn the Mark 1 into a sniper version of the Standard actually)

This preserves the sense of progression for players, slows down the consumption of content since each tier takes a lot more time and resources to reach, and it doesn't kill variety significantly. The current mod system is flexible enough to allow a low tier gun to carry its weight even in high level play, and that's one trait that should be kept.

 

You both make good points.

 

I'm against instant gratification, however high resource cost for weapon that is almost the same as regular weapon and/or only specialized version of it is not a viable option. It doesn't give you allot of reason to own it unless you want to be cool guy (in your own head) who has 3 different weapons, potatoed and formed for 3 different factions, taking up 3 weapon slots and having to change equipment each time you go against different faction, since warframe doesn't have system that allows saving current load out.

I personally like weapons that are good for all situations, maybe not ideal but good and useable. For example you can use Rhino and Loki in any mission, but Ember is useless against corpus as is Volt against infested. There are players who adore high specialization, and those like me. If weapon becomes to specialized against one faction to the point where optimal weapon become useless it will be a bad thing.

 

Making weapon tiers, similar to void (T1 T2 T3) is bad decision, because it excludes alot of weapons in later gameplay, just because they are lower tear (dmg, acc...) that the weapon you could/or already have. I see tear system more as a difficulty that relies on player skill rather than strength of equipment, this is clearly not case in void. Sense of progression must be achieved, but there has to be better way to do it, rather than introducing void like weapon tiers.

 

For example Ogris is useful in high lvl defense missions, making to 50+ wave on Pluto is a joy, but that doesn't mean you will be taking Ogris on Neptune raid mission or any other, where it clearly becomes OP,  in same way as potatoed and lvl-ed Lato. Personally I like to use weapons that behave different, and there fore make me use different strategies, in example of sec wpns: Afuris (auto), Lato Vandal (semi), Kraken (2 shots burst), Acrid (dot + cool melt thing)

And combinations of weapons for example player with Torid (with cryo mod), creating good ground for melee players, while loki uses Decoy and Radial disarm to keep enemies inside.

 

 

 

I do not hate(that word implies force of conviction) I have no use for a clan when I log on and just want to play the game then log of at my leisure. If DE want to make a clan focused game fine, I do not care anymore either, I started before there was support for clans and only continued because I didn't think they would take this direction.

 

I just find clan stuff boring to the extreme degree plain and simple. I have no reason to even continue playing so even to say I am quitting over clan weapons is beyond a stretch I do not care anymore.  I play with clans in games that have raids there are no raids in this game or thing to do with large groups in warframe. The dojo idea is so boring to me I do not care at all about it. Consider this me quitting out of boredom, spin that as a rage post if you want too.

 

What direction did they take?

Clan dojo is player suggested system that is still in alpha phase, aside from social aspect that it offers there isn't much more since all is alpha content (pvp, weapons). DE did say they will be refining system and adding more content.

[LazyKnight]

 

What direction did they take?

Clan dojo is player suggested system that is still in alpha phase, aside from social aspect that it offers there isn't much more since all is alpha content (pvp, weapons). DE did say they will be refining system and adding more content.

 

They moved from the direction of a typical Co-Op game to that of a MMO without the core games to support it. This is an issue that shows they have confused direction on where they intend to take the game. I have seen too many betas fail and I am going to at least wait and see what they do in u9 because it unclear what they are doing or what their vision is for Warframe at release.

 

The core game is a 4 man objectives game and doesn't really stress clan cohesion or social interaction beyond the scope a few people. It would have made more sense to have mimicked the lobby function that Phantasy Star on-line (xbox 360) used and had a general world lobby for people to find like minded individuals to do stuff with.

 

Warframes issue is how implementation of clan centric dojo for its lobby function is how that it doesn't make clan form in a organic or practically oriented manner. Other people had made topics about this in the Dojo section.

 

　

The problem is with weapon and scaling of NPC it doesn’t look like it was ever planed out in advanced what these weapon would even be used on. The methodology that was for weapon scaling and NPC scaling is badly implemented and should likely be thrown out in favor of a different method(I do not care what method they come up with). The method they use for the scaling in this game is broken weapon are either too useful or useless. The mod system is a universal power increase for all weapon within a class and leads to a dead end once a player has assembled all the mods for a given weapon class.

 

Instant gratification isn’t the issue the system is hollow with features on the edges that are useful and everything in the center is useless. They keep adding feature on top of existing problem only masking the worsening issues. 

 

I have played and games like AION that were 97% done when open beta started the only thing they had left unfinished was debugging. When you do any comparisons of what you can be doing with your time its hard to keep playing a beta.  When it is easier to simply be playing a finished product it makes it very hard to buy warframe a beta game excuse for an extended period of time.

Edited June 30, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Taranis49]

Yes, and in the time it takes to charge that Ogris, launch it, and for that rocket to hit (unless the enemy shoots it down, of course), I can pop six of those NPCs, reload, and then pop six more with my properly modded prenerf Hek. They also don't need to be clumped up. They just have to be in a position that I can shoot at them. Moreover, I can do it at any range, and I don't have to worry about chargers getting in my face or blowing myself up.

That's assuming I don't flub the charging. Which happens occasionally. It's not nearly as point and click as the prenerf Hek was.

Seriously, you haven't even used the Ogris. You have no goddamn idea how easy or hard it is to use. You have no basis to claim it does or does not take skill to use.

 

Very much this. Hell, in the vast majority of mission types and circumstances, even my post-nerf Hek will kill single or small groups of enemies faster than my Ogris and that's assuming I have an opportunity to use it at all if I'm with teammates. Likewise it also assumes the charging doesn't get screwed up; due to the fact that Warframe likes to believe I've depressed my left mouse button when I haven't, nevermind the fact that the charging sound doesn't synch properly with the weapon and that when using a Shade the charging light isn't visible when cloaked...

 

The "effective" DPS of an Ogris outside of defense missions where you have an opportunity to get a good firing position in addition to an enemy that's kind enough to cluster together in large numbers is outdone by a number of weapons.

 

It has a specialized role/mission type it does quite well in, but outside of that? Not so much.

[TheDoctah]

This is an utterly terrible idea and I'm flabbergasted as to how you think it could be anything else.

That picture had me laughing for days!

[Psychocrazy]

my only real concern with the ogris is using melee while its charged causes it to fire.

 

i use melee on reflex when something gets close sometimes and then we both die lol.