[[Suggestion(S)]]: Adding Melee Combat Depth || Forma Incentives

[Xorpheus]

I love this game and these devs are the best I've encountered after years of MMO/Online gaming but, if there is one thing I hate, its when developers give you tools that you can't use. In this game those tools are block and dodge, they both are existent but both do next to nothing. I'm just a gamer and I have no idea if its hard to change the properties of already established moves but Its kind of like this... your hired to paint a house and your boss hands you a knife and paint and says get too it, the paint is there but the tool for the job is useless. That is how I feel every time I'm fighting high level Infested. I understand this is beta, and I've seen these devs are willing to do anything to make the game great and more exciting. So I'll be talking about adding special properties to already existing animations and moves as well as adding a few new mahcanics .

I have just hit about 250 Hours of playing warframe, I recently reset last week so I'm only back to rank 7. I just wanted to present some ideas, and after seeing what the devs are doing with just the Ash Blade Storm animation, you could probably spend that same effort on the following suggestions and really add a lot of depth and detail to combat. Ill try to keep each idea short and simple. I don't have time to read every previous suggestion so if these have been presented I'm sorry, honestly haven't looked in many suggestion topics.

 

#1. Stamina

Adding actual numbers to the stamina bar so these following moves can be used like energy is for class abilities.
 

#2. Kicking Animations.

It sounds so simple but this would add a new layer to actually being skilled. Adding another melee button with 3-4 kicking animations would mean combos, having to remember them, and special combinations have certain endders or properties ...

I.E. 1-2-1-1.

For example 3 basic combos free, and one special 4th combination per weapon grip type at the cost of stamina. Kicking animations should stagger every 2 hits.... In this situation I would say devs would need to change the flying kick to just sprint jump kick animation, and replace the running slash melee attack with the wall run melee slash animation which makes more sense... Because I rarely get to kill an enemy off the wall...lol.

#3 Block Counter Grabs/Attacks

Block Gripes:

Blocking does jack in this game and I really want to make it useful. I've noticed that I can block 10000 corpus lazers, but cant block an ancient, or any melee attacks which makes 0 sense. I'm not saying these following abilities should come at no cost they should cost heavy amounts of stamina. First things first though, enemies who run there hands and bodies into melee weapons (while blocking) should take minor dot damage. Lets call that bleed.

Blocking Idea:

You should introduce something like a perfect block timing mechanic where if you press kick or slash just after blocking you would do a grab move, similar to how moves look when you play stealth. These don't have to be finishers it would just be nice if they could do minor damage with some immobilize or knock down to get you out of corners. The ability to add this as a variant in between melee attacks, slash or kick would be awsome.

#4 Dodge Counter Attacks

 

Dodge Gripes:

Similar to blocking, I've tried dodging ancient disruputers, and if I do it early enough from far enough away it creates space getting me out of range, but doesn't actually dodge anything even if I feel like I time it correctly. Please Make dodge actually break homing abilities like ancients knock down, and disrupters hits, the accuracy and speed of those abilities are insane. Again this doesn't have to be for free, make it cost stamina just make it actually function as a dodge.

Dodge Idea:
 

The looking down sights back flip dodge should stagger and do slight damage to enemies that were infront within range, right and left dodges should have a window of time at the end of the dodge where you do a bounce back slashing animation with either slash or kick button. The ability to add this as a variant in between melee attacks, slash or kick would be awsome.

 

#5 Weapon Attachments

 

Ok, this is kinda odd I think I heard them speak of it in the last live steam. I dont think you should just be able to add attachments like COD style. I think you should combine this idea with a forma incentive type deal and make people earn it, because forma-ing a weapon just gives polarities but its a lot of work for no mastery points. So my idea is 2-4-6 star items should receive pools of passive traits they can add to make the weapon better which comes from being experienced with that weapon, so things like steady hands which would reduce recoil currently there's no way to do that. Things like silencers for stealth should be very weapon specific.

If you were to add kicking animations, a boot knife would be sick, or a spiked knee pad. As an attachment ability for your melee (btw not replacing the weapon but adding something extra to it.

#6 Weapon Fusion
 

Adding onto my Forma incentive thing, I think it would be cool to be able to fuse weapons together.

Say you have two 6 star items, these are super mastered, correct? And Now that you've spent probably 2-3 good weeks making these weapons amazing...you find your self bored using them. Well weapon fusion would go like this; say you have a Lex and a Dark Dagger, fusing them would mean they could only be used together so if you were to equip one the other would auto equip. Doing this fusion would allow for a new animation set, where you can use the dagger and pistol in hand together and there would be special combos for the movements. Also weapon fusion would add a 5 Skill button press which is specific to adding these weapon grips together which would kind of be like a weapons ultimate. Doing a 360 attack with the dagger and gun...something cool that would take 100 stamina. But insta kill surroundings. I feel like anyone who double 6 stars two weapons should be awarded things like this, on top of passive traits past 2 stars.

#7 Pvp.

These previous ideas would make melee only pvp amazing as well.

I just want to say the fun of this game is earning the right to be OP, keep the PVE, and PVP values of weapons different so you dont nerf things for reasons pve players dont understand. This happened in a lot of games where pvp was an after thought and they killed it. Like COH/COV, pvp came later and it was horrible because they changed skills so that they effected both pve and pvp the same. Its just bad news, pvp areas should just automatically change the way skills react. LEAVE PVE ALONE!!! lol.


#8 Did I go too far?

Weapon fusion is out there and I understand that it is, but the forma incentive isn't really there besides polarities and I feel like if you spend that much time on a weapons set there should be huge rewards for that level of mastery. My first few ideas are the ones that matter the basic changes to melee and functionality of Block and dodge.

Well, I hope it wasn't too boring. I'm probably the 5000^th person to recommend a few of these changes but whatever. Nail me to the cross if I'm annoying. 

P.S. Oh yeah, if you have a Logitech G13, go check out my Pinned post in Players Helping Players Section... I've already created a kick button...so be jealous..=P

Edited June 27, 2013 by Xorpheus

[Xorpheus]

Edit: Its now actually readable. WITH COLORS! Boom. 

[Airwolff]

Awesome ideas!

[Thunder-IV]

Best ideas, I've heard in a long time.  I agree with about everything above.  I also think it would be neat to add some sort of counter or sweep for massive mobs with a perfectly timed dodge.  Something along with or similar to the grappling mechanic.  That way we could have a little more depth to the melee because it's definitely lacking. Everything feels really sloppy, chaotic and delayed.  There's no sense of skill or reward for close combat.  It all feels like a desperate hack and slash moment, where you just hope you can click the button fast enough to kill everything before an ancient comes in and bends you over. Don't even bother with PvP, that's for scumbags and e-peen measuring.  Focus on the PvE weapon mechanics and values, that's what makes this game what it is.

[Twiggle_Sticks]

Really solid ideas in here and if I have noticed anything about this game it is that these sorts of things get taken serious and hopefully will end up being added.

[Aishi]

All this work would take a long time from the Devs. Kicking animations for every weapon type?

They'd rather differentiate the weapon types before actually deviating from the normal attacks + charge attack formula. 

Are they great ideas? Yes. Is it going to be a burden on the devteam to implement? Yes. Will we see them one day? Yes.

[F43AK]

I personally think some type of PvP will be needed eventually to bridge the gap of content releases, and all these idea's are great, but the weapon fusions a little too out there, too much work to be honest, it would triple their workload when adding frames and weapons, causing lack of content.

[Xorpheus]

All this work would take a long time from the Devs. Kicking animations for every weapon type?

They'd rather differentiate the weapon types before actually deviating from the normal attacks + charge attack formula. 

Are they great ideas? Yes. Is it going to be a burden on the devteam to implement? Yes. Will we see them one day? Yes.

The kick animations would only need 2 or 3 animations the 4th animation would take maybe some specifics but i don't feel like its that serious when you take into account they are doing animations per weapon type with the ash blade storm as mentioned.

 

 

Here are some examples for simple Kicking animations that could be done with little effort and any weapon in hand so... that we don't worry this guy here.

Front Kick (stagger)

Round House kick

Reverse Round house kick

Charge Kick = Tornado kick (Fast charge || high damage) 

Falling Kick stationary falling kick (like melee slam) = Crescent kick (knock down)

Running kick & Dodge counter kick = Flying kick (already in)

Grab counter kick = grab animation ending in Small AOE Sweep kick!

from here we would have to add the ability to mix existing melee weapon swings in between kicking + Special attributes for perfect combos (like a quicker fully charge melee or stagger resistant combo swing the last S on this combo  K-S-S-K-S)

It wouldn't be weapon specific it would just include what they already have and then create variants.

 

Edited July 4, 2013 by Xorpheus

[Asanogawa]

Really great ideas and suggestions. Imyself am an avid melee fan, most of the time I melee more than shoot simply because I want to RP and feel like a ninja. I have one suggestion myself although I'm not sure many people would agree since I haven't found a similar suggestion so far.

 

I was thinking about the DEV's adding more special melee animations (such as the stealth/assassination animations) some eye candy if you will. Whether it's implimented through some kind of combo mechanic or simply an extra long charge attack. If any of you have played Ninja Gaiden think about the awesome animations when ryu used his charge attack )either when he used orbs to supplement or just when you held it alll the way) I think there was 3 diffent levels of it? Anyway with each level of the charged attack the animation got more and more outrageous, very awesome mechanic in my opinion. If they dod add this it would have to be a mechanic that you couldn't activate unintentionally otherwise it could cost you your life by getting swarmed as you are in the middle of an animation (unless the animation was aoe that would solve that issue). But make sure it's some thing that takes effort not a spammable rediculous ability.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Asanogawa

[OcelotVampire]

How about combos that involve the melee button only and more timing. Example atk, atk, hold atk, knocks target up in the air. While atk, atk, atk, hold atk, adds power swing at end of combo. Different weapons = different variants of the combos. Also would be nice if stam was only used while actually blocking an atk. Not just for holding it.

[Thaumatos]

Fused weapons should be recreated in a re-work of simple loadouts:

* Remove Primary, Secondary, Melee slots

* Add 2 loadout choices

* Each loadout consists of a right and left hand

* Each hand has 4 mod slots

* Mods are able to be slotted based on the weapon type chosen for the hand

* Mods chosen only effect the weapon in the hand

** Depending on the effectiveness, some pistol mods may need an increase

* Two-handed guns/melee will have both hand's mods applied to the weapon

* All weapons fall into general categories

** 1h or 2h

** Melee, Small Caliber, Large Caliber, Shotgun, Non-Magazine Rounds (Fuel, Arrows, Rockets, etc)

This would fix round pickups, as well as add new player-created combinations of melee/firearm loadouts that could expand gameplay and content. Making this distinction would also allow players to better utilize the 'block' function.

Individual Weapons:

1h (left) - Left mouse button shoot/swing/charge

1h (right) - Right mouse button shoot/swing/charge

1h (only) - Left mouse button shoot/swing/charge, right zoom/block

2h - Left mouse button shoot/swing/charge, right zoom/block

Weapon Combos:

Melee/Gun - Each is operated by the mouse button of the chosen hand

* No zoom, No block

* Can shoot while charging melee

* Can swing while reloading gun

Gun/Gun - Each is operated by the mouse button of the chosen hand

* Weapons are reloaded individually by 'R' from lowest round count first

* One weapon can fire while other is reloading

* Double-tapping 'R' reloads both weapons simultaneously

Melee/Melee - Both swing/charge from left mouse, right blocks

Special Note: When the player choses only guns in both loadouts, the first loadout may be used as a melee tool when out of rounds

[lautalocos]

i love these ideas, good thinking!

 

but i think that blocking shouldnt constantly drain your stamina, you should lose stamina when you are hit

[Xorpheus]

i really like the ideas that others are coming up with as well, lets keep it up and maybe the devs will read it...lol

[Aspari]

We should bind kick to Mouse 3 so that way it's easier to use.

[alocrius]

+1 Love the ideas presented here.  It would be nice if dodge and block were more useful and I think you've found the solution.  I posted something on the topic of improving combat with more melee/martial arts centric combat and real world ninja equivalency.  See if you like it. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/68907-tenno-foundation-for-martial-excellence/#entry732001

Edited June 27, 2013 by alocrius

[Xorpheus]

i love these ideas, good thinking!

 

but i think that blocking shouldnt constantly drain your stamina, you should lose stamina when you are hit

 

I agree that's why I want set stamina amounts per class. I want to see the numbers and then they drain on hit/use of counters not just constant drain, I never added that note but good thing you reminded me.

 

 

We should bind kick to Mouse 3 so that way it's easier to use.

 

I'm pretty sure Mouse 3 is the current default block button, I have created a kick button that I macro'ed but I wouldn't say its amazing.

--

As another note I'd prefer a second melee button and not mouse clicks as that really nails down your play style, when you take over the controls for another weapon, your stuck just in melee, I don't want that either. I want what everyone really wants which is options...the option to show skill with timing a reflexes without sacrificing any current controls....lets keep in mind they are probably currently overhauling the UI, and Controls anyways for PS4. A button is better then left and right mouse clicks for adding a second melee button. I think the simpler the idea is and the less mucking up of the system already in play the more likely they are to listen.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Xorpheus

[General-Griffin]

great ideas. I'd love these in game :) +1

[Xorpheus]

I like how i brought this up and then today's... reinforcements....kicking S#&$.

 

[Rooder]

It'd be nice if they had ability mods for them. I.E ability to increase melee moveset with a mod. I want to be able to do izuna drops please.

[Xorpheus]

After watching today's live stream pretty sure I posted this in the wrong place.... lol oh well.