Herp a Derp

[Iccotak]

1 minute ago, JSharpie said:

Not if it means Warframe becomes like every other F2P game. Firefall, Fallen Earth, Tera, etc. These all have publishers with kinds of memberships, expansion packs, even more rigorous and vital RNG rolls while having levels of grind that outlast Warframe. Imagine if TWW was a 20 dollar expansion title you had to buy. That's what Publishers do. They give a developer money, and then tell them what to do with that money to make sure they make a huge profit.

Also, AAA titles have been consistently poor lately, money has very little to do with quality.

We have already ruled out Publishers. Please read through the forum. 
"Imagine if TWW was a 20 dollar expansion title you had to buy." War Within should not be treated like an expansion. Warframe's campaign is a work in progress, the War Within is simply the part of the story.
I am saying that Warframe should not be a F2P, because those games have problems like the ones you mentioned as well as not exactly being a complete game.  

The Overall end goal of Digital Extremes, should be to create a COMPLETE Product. 

[artemisfortune]

Just now, Iccotak said:

We have already ruled out Publishers. Please read through the forum. 
"Imagine if TWW was a 20 dollar expansion title you had to buy." War Within should not be treated like an expansion. Warframe's campaign is a work in progress, the War Within is simply the part of the story.
I am saying that Warframe should not be a F2P, because those games have problems like the ones you mentioned as well as not exactly being a complete game.  

The Overall end goal of Digital Extremes, should be to create a COMPLETE Product. 

So what, you're saying Warframe should cost 60 dollars, and then Platinum is just thrown out the window? They wouldn't make money on sales at all, and they would lose tons of players and business. Being F2P means a steady influx of cash and the ability to gain new players and potential customers daily with no effort from the customer other than clicking "install".

I wasn't saying TWW should be an expansion, I'm saying if you got your way it would have to have been so they can make any semblance of money post release.

Warframe will never be complete, ever. Even when it does get that 1.0 release, what do you think will change?

and finally, I'm allowed to throw in my thoughts to any part of the post regardless of if you've seen it's a bad idea or disagree with it now.

[Iccotak]

7 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

Double posting because I'm lazy.

 

No video game will ever hold someone's attention for the rest of their life. We have very small attention spans as humans alone. Things will get boring, nothing will change that. If you've played for 3-4 years like a lot of us have, and are still kicking, eventually you won't be. It's a fact of life with anything.

Let me put it like this. https://steamdb.info/calculator/76561198048503054/?cc=us is my steam account. Look at the games I've never played, or barely played. I have a small attention span, I get bored easily. I get bored with Warframe too. I have games on Origin, my GMG account, my GOG account, etc that I've rarely or never played. It happens. I don't think the games are failures because of it.

You are missing the point. It is not hardly being played, or getting bored with, or forgetting about the game that would make Warframe a "failure". 

What would make Warframe a failure is not becoming a finished product. You library almost entirely consists of complete products. Not ones that are in constant evolution as Warframe is. They set out a goal for their game and they accomplished that, they were successful with their product. 
Digital Extremes has not finished making Warframe. If everyone were to stop playing right now and DE never got to make the whole game they set out to, then that game would be a failure. That is not opinion, that is fact. 

Look at Elder Scrolls Online, they had a rocky start and many would say an incomplete game. Zenimax understood this and proceeded to work their butts off to give the players a complete experience. They focused on fixing and completing the game. Not on simply giving the players more stuff to buy. 

However ESO was a B2P game so they automatically were able to do more. 

Those players are getting bored with Warframe because it is an incomplete game. Not because of their attention spans

[artemisfortune]

1 minute ago, Iccotak said:

Those players are getting bored with Warframe because it is an incomplete game. Not because of their attention spans

I disagree with you entirely. I've seen most people say they're just bored. You see Warframe being completed as this kind of super simplistic milestone when it's not. They are pushing for that goal. It takes time. Making video games is hard.

What you're asking is for satisfying and time consuming content, but A). That doesn't come overnight and takes quite a bit of development and B). Wouldn't satisfy everyone. You'll always have people leave. Plenty of old players like me are still around and new players are seen everywhere.

Also, ESO is still a failure and it's still a bad game in my opinion. Nothing they've added has made me want to play it more, and I'd much rather play Warframe than that garbage. You see, everyone has different tastes, and trying to retain every player is silly, it's impossible, it won't happen.

"Completing" Warframe or people leaving because it's "Incomplete" is just conjecture at best. You're guessing. Sure some players say they're leaving because it's "incomplete" but they don't say how they would complete it. I just don't think you understand how this game's development cycle works, and want it to conform to these huge level companies who can crank out games very quickly because they have the manpower for it.

[Iccotak]

10 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

So what, you're saying Warframe should cost 60 dollars, and then Platinum is just thrown out the window? They wouldn't make money on sales at all, and they would lose tons of players and business. Being F2P means a steady influx of cash and the ability to gain new players and potential customers daily with no effort from the customer other than clicking "install".

I wasn't saying TWW should be an expansion, I'm saying if you got your way it would have to have been so they can make any semblance of money post release.

Warframe will never be complete, ever. Even when it does get that 1.0 release, what do you think will change?

and finally, I'm allowed to throw in my thoughts to any part of the post regardless of if you've seen it's a bad idea or disagree with it now.

I am saying that Digital Extremes should work towards creating a finished product. Not to suddenly make it a B2P game but to make that their end goal. A B2P game should be a finished Product. 

Everyone has been assuming that I am saying this should happen now. That is wrong. I am saying make that the end goal, whether that is in 2 or 4 years from now.

If Digital Extremes does not intend to create a finished product as they did originally then Warframe is just another incomplete F2P cash cow like so many others.
 

You are free to say what you want, but understand that certain points are redundant to make because they have already been made and I agreed with them. The point about the dangers of publishers has been made several times now.

[artemisfortune]

Just now, Iccotak said:

-snip-

I didn't even mention a publisher in the last post.

The goal is 1.0 release. Did you ever play back in update 8? 9? 10? It's improved greatly in a short time. WoW has been around for years, is subscription based, and the game looks the same as it did as well as having the gameplay become worse.

Warframe shouldn't be buy2play and their free2play model works very well. You aren't considering all the pain and suffering that making a buy2play online game comes with. Including losing players, losing income, a breakdown of the in-game economy and a level of stress that comes with maintaining that. DE is not a big company, certainly not the Titan that Bethesda is (and they consistently have put out terribly buggy and horrendous things lately), so making it B2P is pretty much off the table and serves no purpose but to bottleneck the playerbase. They are always working towards a complete experience in Lore and it's gameplay systems, and making it a free2play game was the best way that they could make money to provide active development for their game.

[Iccotak]

5 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

What you're asking is for satisfying and time consuming content, but A). That doesn't come overnight and takes quite a bit of development

That is what I have been saying. So many people complained about how long TWW took to make when they did not consider the resources it took to make that.

I have repeatedly said that they have had slow development because of the lack of manpower they have due to a lack of funding.

I enjoy ESO and it is much better now than before but I am not going to argue taste.
ESO still has hundreds of hours of story content, ESO has hundreds of hours a player can put into exploring the game, hours that can be put into crafting ESO has a complete set of game mechanics,  etc. Like Warframe ESO is very different game than when it started out. Zenimax finished what they set out to do and now they plan to do more with it. However they have larger staff and more funding.

Warframe has some story that you can play but is still in the works, Warframe still has planet campaigns and tile sets in development, Warframe is now working on a dialogue system for players, Warframe is still working on expanding and adding game mechanics, Warframe's beginner system is still in progress, End game content is still in the works, they are working on intractable NPCs, They are working on creating explorable areas with integrated lore, They are still working on graphics, etc.

From an objective point of view Warframe is not complete. I love it to death but I recognize the flaws. I point them out now because I am worried about the future. 

Word is that Bungie not only plans to fix every problem (especially the lack of content) there was with Destiny but they also plan to release it on PC. Warframe was often called Destiny but better. If Destiny fixes all of its problems, will Warframe remain better? 
With Bungie's staff and resources I suspect not for long.
 

[artemisfortune]

7 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

That is what I have been saying. So many people complained about how long TWW took to make when they did not consider the resources it took to make that.

I have repeatedly said that they have had slow development because of the lack of manpower they have due to a lack of funding.

I enjoy ESO and it is much better now than before but I am not going to argue taste.
ESO still has hundreds of hours of story content, ESO has hundreds of hours a player can put into exploring the game, hours that can be put into crafting ESO has a complete set of game mechanics,  etc. Like Warframe ESO is very different game than when it started out. Zenimax finished what they set out to do and now they plan to do more with it. However they have larger staff and more funding.

Warframe has some story that you can play but is still in the works, Warframe still has planet campaigns and tile sets in development, Warframe is now working on a dialogue system for players, Warframe is still working on expanding and adding game mechanics, Warframe's beginner system is still in progress, End game content is still in the works, they are working on intractable NPCs, They are working on creating explorable areas with integrated lore, They are still working on graphics, etc.

From an objective point of view Warframe is not complete. I love it to death but I recognize the flaws. I point them out now because I am worried about the future. 

Word is that Bungie not only plans to fix every problem (especially the lack of content) there was with Destiny but they also plan to release it on PC. Warframe was often called Destiny but better. If Destiny fixes all of its problems, will Warframe remain better? 
With Bungie's staff and resources I suspect not for long.
 

The core of Destiny and Warframe are similar, the game is not the same at all. Having played both, I greatly prefer Warframe's action than Destiny's first person gameplay.

[Iccotak]

18 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

I didn't even mention a publisher in the last post.

I was referencing this. 
"Not if it means Warframe becomes like every other F2P game. Firefall, Fallen Earth, Tera, etc. These all have publishers with kinds of memberships, expansion packs, even more rigorous and vital RNG rolls while having levels of grind that outlast Warframe."

"Did you ever play back in update 8? 9? 10?" - Yes I did. I was there. And I agree it has improved immensely, still not a complete product though.

21 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

WoW has been around for years, is subscription based, and the game looks the same as it did as well as having the gameplay become worse.

Wow was a complete game when it came out though, sure they added fixes and DLCs but its vanilla content is still a complete game. 

ESO and Destiny are B2P games. 
Taste aside, both of those have a large player base.
ESO fixed its problems and gained a larger audience for doing so.
Destiny intends to fix all of their problems in the sequel, meaning that they could also increase their player base.

If a game has bugs that does not make it incomplete. All of the elder scrolls games had bugs but they are still finished products. 
Wow has bugs in vanilla and all of their add-on content, still a complete game.

[Iccotak]

5 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

The core of Destiny and Warframe are similar, the game is not the same at all. Having played both, I greatly prefer Warframe's action than Destiny's first person gameplay.

You are right they are not really the same. But players moved from Destiny to Warframe not only because of the gameplay but because there was simply more content. 

[Iccotak]

46 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

people leaving because it's "Incomplete" is just conjecture at best.

This is not conjecture or an opinion I decided was truth.

I actually looked thorough multiple Warframe youtube channels, I have talked with a youtube content creator, I have multiple friends who play that game, and I read reviews of the game through multiple sources such as; Steam, Metacritic, IGN, and Youtube. And the complaint I hear the most is that the game is incomplete and makes up for that with grinding.

[JefPlays]

I see nothing but fearmongering here.

Move along, folks

[Iccotak]

 

DE is working some of the problems that are mentioned here.
Basically He is saying to work on older content rather than constantly adding in new stuff. 
Which DE has mentioned working on