Thoughts On 2 New Warframes - Hel And Lir

[PrivateAli]

So, as you could've probably guessed, both are names of gods of long dead cultures. One being the nordic culture (to be specific the germanic), Hel is goddess of the hell (obviously) and the underworld. Hel is obviously female, daughter of Loki (whose in-game name actually origins from this nordic-god Loki).

 

To get more into the game-specific issues, and less into the nordic culture:

 

Souleater

25 Energy

Hel attacks a single target destroying his soul.

Deals 100 / 200 / 400 / 700 damage to an single enemy. Upon death, he will emit a medium-sized black cloud and perform the disappear-animation similar to the capture target just with black particles flying around. Killing an enemy with Souleater will ALWAYS make them play a deep pitched voice-over saying "uuuuuuuurrrggghh". - Range is 20m for all mod levels.

 

Undead Bonds

50 Energy

Skeleton arms rise from the ground in front of Hel and grab enemies limbs, preventing all enemies from walking or firing.

Deals 25 / 25 / 50 / 75 damage to all enemies within 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 meters (radius of 22.5° to each side, so 45° overall), stuns them and keeps them useless for 10 seconds.

 

Lost Souls

75 Energy

Hel infiltrates all enemy souls in range unleashing all mourns of the lost souls in hell upon them.

Deals 400 / 400 / 600 / 800 damage within 5 / 5 / 10 / 15 meters also staggering all enemies in range for 5 seconds (as long as the animation casts), damage dealt is the same on all ranges within the radius.

On a random note: this behaves similar to phorid's battle cry except for the range difference, it is not avoidable within the radius in any way tho.

 

Death Wave

100 Energy

Hel creates a radial attack dealing extremely high damage.

Deals 800 / 1000 / 1100 / 1200 damage within 5 / 10 / 12 / 15 meters, cannot be avoided by enemies, is unaffected by armor, elemental resistance or shields, will directly attack HP.

Animation should be similar to Loki's Radial Disarm, with the exception of causing a slow black wave cloud to move 360° around you.

 

 

Base Health: 75.0 (225 on Level30)

Base Power: 125.0 (200 on Level30)

Armor: 10.0

Base Shield: 100 (300 on Level30)

Sprint Speed: 1.00

 

 

4x Power (Warframe Abilities)

1x Defensive (Shield, HP, Armor, Shield Reg.)

1x Tactical (Misc., e.g. Flow, Streamline, Stretch)

 

Only 50% effectiveness for all skills to Corpus MOAs since MOAs already have no soul, only circuits. and i don't think circuits are impressed by mourns of lost souls.

 

 

 

Coming to Warframe No.2, Lir. Irish God of the Water, he makes warmer use of water than frost.

 

Fountain

25 Energy

Lir causes a fountain under the targeted enemy catapulting him into the air.

 

Deals very little damage (similar to Frosts Freeze) upon impact, however once the enemy is thrown into the air by the fountain, he will be smashed against the ceiling causing instant-death. It is however affected by the weight of the enemy, therefore, light units (corpus crewmen, prod crewmen, standard-moas, grineer flameblade, sawmen, powerfist, scorpion, infested runners, leapers, all crawlers) will catapult approx. 30m into the air,

medium sized units (corpus sniper, railgun moa, shockwave moa, grineer lancer, trooper, shield lancer, scorch, scorch, seeker ballista, infested chargers) about 15m and

heavy units (Corpus Technician, Fusion MOA, Heavy Gunner, Napalm, Bombard, Commander) 10m and finally,

super-heavy units (All Infested Ancients) only 5m into the air.

 

If there is no ceiling but open space, enemies catapulted above 15m will result in instant-death upon impact with the ground (again, due to having every single bone broken), all other enemies (heavy and super-heavy units) will receive 50 damage per meter fallen.

(maybe you lurked an infested healer onto an elevator and used fountain? just let the elevator move down again and it's a guaranteed dead infested healer.)

 

 

Slippery Affair

50 Energy

Lir causes all enemies within a certain radius to slip on the wet ground.

 

Deals again very little damage but will knockback all enemies within range (5 / 10 / 10 / 15) by X meters and cause them to start their getting-up animation.

 

 

Tsunami

75 Energy

Lir causes a giant water wave around him mowing down everything in it's path.

 

Deals 500 / 500 / 750 / 1000 damage to all targets affected by the tsunami. this is causing a 360° AoE in a 5 / 8 / 11 / 15 meter radius.

 

Thirst

125 Energy

Lir takes all enemies within range most of their body water away, resulting in them to die instantly or at least highly damaged. Will emit a 360° AoE out of water-consisting homing spears dealing medium damage and knocking enemies back.

 

All enemies within range take 1000 damage on all levels affected by water resistance, range is 10 / 13 / 13 / 15 meters.

water-consisting homing spears will deal another 200 damage upon hit, there will be 2 / 2 / 3 / 4 spears casted. Multiple Spears may hit the same target.

will think of something less deathmachine-like.

 

Base HP: 75.0 (225.0 at Lvl30)

Base Power: 150.0 (250 at Lvl30)

Base Armour: 10.0

Base Shield: 75.0 (225.0 at Lvl30)

Sprint Speed: 1.15

 

Water Damage will deal 200% damage to Corpus MOAs, as circuits, control modules and everything just slightly electric will be destroyed once water gets into it.

 

4x Power (Warframe Abilities)

1x Defensive (Shield, HP, Armor, Shield Reg.)

1x Tactical (Misc., e.g. Flow, Streamline, Stretch)

 

These are just suggested values, those might be too much (they surely are), feel free to write constructive critism and tweaks for those 2 new warframes (i might add I just invented them out of my mind due to boredom).

 

I am aware of the fact that both warframes overlap with certain frames such as frost or nyx but either way, all 4, frost, nyx, hel and lir feature a completely unique playstyle. While Nyx is more about passive damage (chaos, anyone?) and mind control, Lir is more about raising hell, so to say.

While Frost has actual defense capabilities (Freeze, Snow Globe), Lir ONLY has offensive abilities (Slippery Affair being the most defensive one).

 

Also, if some more warm-water warframe will eventually get added far far in the future, we definitely need a trident as melee weapon.

Edited July 2, 2013 by PrivateAli

[Grulos]

"

Undead Bonds

50 Energy

Skeleton arms rise from the ground in front of Hel and grab enemies limbs, preventing all enemies from walking or firing.

Deals 25 / 25 / 50 / 75 damage to all enemies within 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 meters (radius of 22.5° to each side, so 45° overall), stuns them and keeps them useless for 10 seconds."

 

Stopped reading here.

 

So you basically want a DEATHMACHINE which obliterates all and everything in a huge radius.

 

The other abilities are even worse.

1200 damage which is unaffected by enemy armor.

 

1.2.0.0. frigging armor ignoring damage? in a 15m radius?

 

LOL.

 

Nice idea of a frame, but way, WAY to strong compared to other ones. Frost's Freeze is the single target version of your "Undead Bonds".

 

No OP.

No.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Grulos

[Scudman_Alpha]

"

Undead Bonds

50 Energy

Skeleton arms rise from the ground in front of Hel and grab enemies limbs, preventing all enemies from walking or firing.

Deals 25 / 25 / 50 / 75 damage to all enemies within 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 meters (radius of 22.5° to each side, so 45° overall), stuns them and keeps them useless for 10 seconds."

 

Stopped reading here.

 

So you basically want a DEATHMACHINE which obliterates all and everything in a huge radius.

 

The other abilities are even worse.

1200 damage which is unaffected by enemy armor.

 

1.2.0.0. frigging armor ignoring damage? in a 15m radius?

 

LOL.

 

Nice idea of a frame, but way, WAY to strong compared to other ones. Frost's Freeze is the single target version of your "Undead Bonds".

 

No OP.

No.

 

Excalibur's ulti is a 10-20m 1500 damage ignoring armor and multible blades can hit the same enemy dealing a capable ammount of 1500x3 dealing 4500 to a  single enemy

can also literally kill bosses with the press of that button if a MAG uses "bullet attractor" (or i think thats the name) on the boss

and there isn't a cap at how many enemies are hit by it nor his 1# hotkey which can literally kill an entire corridor for a measly cost of 25 energy 

 

 

suggestion for Hel's ult

make it have a cap of about 10/11/11/12 enemies caught in the blast, keep the damage at 1000 and make it only hit them once

 

 

 

suggeston for her 1# hotkey skill

 

it would make more sense if the instead of "destroying" the enemie's soul she would just drain some of the enemie's soul

skill which you basically grab a single enemie's soul and sucks some life from it, dealing 200/225/275/300 damage to that enemy, giving back 50% of the damage that ability did to the enemy, doesn't work on most corpus units.Tales 2 seconds to realise the draining leaving her vulnerable to fire or stun from infested

 

would keep her alive due to her lack of health, only having 75 health but having something to get it back would be useful, wouldn't make her invincible if too many enemies are around

 

 

 

now the suggestion for the "undead bond" skill:

 

can work as the same but with a range of 10m and making the enemies stunned for 4 seconds instead of 10, doesn't work on bosses nor very heavy units, can hit up to 7/7/8/9 enemies in the radius

 

Replacement: Undead's curse

can also replace the skill with a debuff on enemie's and a buff for herself

she pretty much gathers energy to release a shockwave which inflict a debuff on enemies making them take 40% more damage  from her and her teamates and she gains a buff giving her damage reduction of 40% percent less damage to health AND shields

 

she doesn't have much of either so its fair

Edited July 1, 2013 by Scudman_Alpha

[PrivateAli]

Read above. I already said they are surely way too strong.

 

That's why I'm asking YOU, yes you, and all the other people reading this, to help me get this to a decent level so it's neither OP nor useless.

 

Currently Saryn's MIASMA does 4x212 poison damage (afaik that equals unaffected by armour and such, furthermore poison should also ignore shields). which equals about 850 dmg.

 

Currently, Frosts Avalanche does 1000 damage at all levels to health and double to shields, not to mention most enemies are somewhere in the 66%-200% Ice Resistance Section for the body. 660-2,000 damage. A single Ambulas (which is nothing else than a strong MOA with some gimmicks) will potentially, depending on how much the shield withstands (considering 4-5 Latron Bullets are enough to take it down .. about 600-800 i'd say.)

I am unsure wether Ambulas has the same weaknesses as normal MOAs, but due to the fact of basically being a bi-pedal MG with camera mounting i would say yes.

in that case, 

IF he has 800 shields .. he'll still take 1,200 damage to his HP, due to the fact that for his shield 400 of 1k damage of the avalanche are used, and MOAs take 200% Freeze Damage to the midsection .. well yeah.

 

Another example, even worse:

Volt using Overload on Ambulas. Does basic 1k damage. due to MOA weaknesses, Ambulas, in theory (if counted as MOA sharing the same weakpoints) would receive 4k damage in just 1 animation. imagine 2 Volts doing that and bye bye Ambulas.

 

 

Also, Hel was in my head thought to be finally something usefull against Lvl70+ Infested other than Embers. Lvl60 Ancients take more than 1 mag from my Latron (20 shots) into their right boot dealing about 150 damage each (at least thats the numbers displayed). So they have more than 3k HP.

A single charge hit from my Scindo (+100% Charge Attack Damage, +50% Freeze, etc. etc.) against Phorid does about 1,800 damage. now, as Phorid takes x3 damage from slashing, that equals 600 damage upon every charge hit. that goes for infested ancients. I take down a Lvl30 ancient interrupter in nearly 1 charge attack (leaves him with about 5% HP).

 

All in all, you might be right.

 

But what do you suggest to change it? To make it less OP? 

 

Undead Bonds - only effective in a 45° angle. anything outside of that will remain unaffected. 10 seconds lock-time .. that equals rhino stomp, with the difference of not being 360° effective. also, frosts freeze does cost half the amount of energy, frost is able to take actual hits, which Hel would not as it has basically the same low amount of shields and hp loki has, without being able to cloak itself or put decoys all over the place.

 

Frost Freeze < Undead Bonds < Rhino Stomp in terms of effectiveness aswell as energy cost.

 

Furthermore, to make the Death Wave more reasonable. Since its black magic, that would add another vulnerability factor to it, would it? Why not change the vulnerability for all stuff except for Infested Ancients to 60-70%, nerfing the max dmg output to HP to 1000. Infested Ancients receive 100% vulnerability to black magic. leaves them with having to deal with 1,000 damage to them.

Also, ANY 4th skill crowd control AoE skill (in case of rhino its 3rd skill) will one-hit anything Level30 and below. that goes for mags crush, Rhinos Radial Blast, Excals Radial Javelin, Saryn's MIASMA, Volts Overload, Banshee's Sound Quake.

BUT in case of this "reworked" Death Wave, Hel would be the first to stop one-hitting enemies with that skill. On the other hand, it would have the least trouble in dealing with infested ancients.

 

Downside is .. you are squishy. You got 10.0 Armour, Base Shield of 100, Base Health of 75. - On Lvl30 u have 10.0 armour, 300 Shield and 225 HP. not exactly much is it? sure, you can get some mods. But the amount of shield and HP is nearly as bad as Lokis, but Loki has 50.0 Armour in exchange and is extremely fast.

 

This thing is to be a Black Mage, relying on her energy and her black magic. Its not a tank, its not a formidable stealth fighter - this thing is pure, pure destruction. Once it has no energy, its an easy prey for anyone. Too Slow to effectively run away from Infested Ancients charging at you, no shields and armour to defend yourself with .. Bad Day for you.

 

------

 

Of course it was meant to be OP in the current status. If you make it OP, you can adjust it lower and lower until it fits. If you make it totally UP its hard to find the balance right away. This way you'll have an easier time reaching this "border" to balance between UP and OP.

 

But by simply saying "OP OP!" .. thats not gonna change a lot. If you think it's OP, how about you come up with an solution to fix that issue?

Edited July 1, 2013 by PrivateAli

[Qynchou]

How is it a suit? Is it going to be the devil that raises undead in a random warframe?

[PrivateAli]

How is it a suit? Is it going to be the devil that raises undead in a random warframe?

 

Hel has been displayed in a quite a few paintings, even from more modern times:

This one's from 1909 i believe:

 

 

You can see her as very skinny, old woman much to how old witches are displayed in tales.

 

another picture, showing her with a snake around her right arm and her foot standing on a skull

 

 

DE might have to come up with something, I guess some dark colours would pretty much fit what she is. Devil inside, unleashing Hell to increase the numbers in her undead grineer army.

 

Lir on the other hand would fit more brighter blue colours, considering Lir is Old Irish and translated as "Sea".

 

He is generally displayed as noble man, often with a crown and body armour similar to the image of the Templars in white clothing with helmet and chain armour.

 

Edited July 1, 2013 by PrivateAli

[KyuubiFrame]

Just pointing out to people who say that the abilities are too strong -
for a start I agree that they are op due to high damage but if you continue reading, both of the character ideas have less than average health, shields and armor but with a high energy and damage rating.
sorry if my views seem ignorant or nooby but truthfully would these characters really be very op considering that they have no survivabilty but have a high (OP) damage?
also considering since the base shields and health are low, health and shield booster mods will actually be a must in order to survive.
as said, someone please respond and let me know if my views are wrong or correct and in what ways