Aura System Discussion 9.1.4 Thread Merger

[Drusus]

Enough mod energy is when you can put every mod you could ever possibly want, at maximum rank, in your frame. That is, Flow, Focus, Streamline, Continuity, Stretch, Redirection, Vitality, Steel Fiber.

Flow - 9 cost, 5 with Forma.

Focus - 11 cost, 6 with Forma.

Streamline - 9 cost, 5 with Forma.

Continuity - 9 cost, 5 with Forma.

Stretch - 9 cost, 5 with Forma.

Redirection - 14 cost, 7 with Forma.

Vitality - 12 cost, 6 with Forma.

Steel Fiber - 14 cost, 7 with Forma.

5 + 6 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 7 + 6 + 7 = 46

With every slot Formed, that's 46 capacity, out of 60. Leaving you a whopping 14 for two abilities of your choice, which is more than enough. Or swap out Steel Fiber (which is of questionable use, I just put it in the equation because of its high cost so anything else will not raise the cost) for a third ability.

So the line had already been crossed long before Auras. Auras have changed nothing about the balance of the game.

It just takes shorter to get there now, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your point of view. If you want to feel "elite" and watch new players struggle and fall as they try to reach your level, it's a bad thing. From my point of view it's a good thing because it means leveling new frames is less of a pain and I can spend less time grinding and more time actually playing the game.

So the optimal balance point, per frame, you advocate is to have it all, unrestricted and never needing to make choices or deal with opportunity costs or equivalent values of mod use?

Customization or tailoring a Warframe to be anything but a maxed out duplicate of the guy next to him has no interest to you?

Good to know, thank you for stating your position so clearly so people know where you stand when seeking to debate you on the subject.

I do not agree with your position in the slightest even if I understand why some people want it that way. In my opinion and analysis, that is the single most destructive path forward the game could choose.

DE may feel differently.

[SirAuron]

It is over a mechanic and what can result from it.

And yet no one in favor of it has answered me the question.

How much mod energy is enough. Where is your line?

Put it in numbers.

This reminds me of the old argument over microtransactions in mainstream games. In the end it shall get out of hand, but if the devs can manage to limit it to an acceptable option and not be overbearing then it won't be so bad.

 

Seems people are just overreacting. Why not try the wait and see approach and see what the devs have planned and not jump to conclusions. Have faith.

 

Some of these arguments seem to be based on what the devs might do and not what the devs have done. This "power creep" is just a future argument happening right now before seeing the the devs have planned.

 

Take a nice deep breath and see what the devs have planned. Currently the auras cap at 7 giving 14 more points, if it stays at 14 points, would there really be a "power creep". You have only had 60 points up until now. ^0 points since closed beta, it's been over a year now. perhaps 14 points would last longer. As the game gets bigger and bigger who knows what might happen. What the devs might do.

 

Until you see their game plan, you don't know if this "power creep" is the future.

 

If the devs feel after reading this and end up thinking that going over 14 points in the future is bad then they might not do it so enjoy the ever lasting 14 points.

 

And as for the other people and their silly forma arguments, get over yourselves.

[lstalri]

Okay, question: Why would you call that imbalanced?

 

The rank of a given Warframe/Weapon represents the amount of experience you have with it- or, the amount of effort you have invested into that Warframe to get it to that point.

 

In order to get your mod capacity high enough to do things like that, you need to have a high-ranked Aura Mod. This Aura Mod represents the exact same thing; that you have invested enough effort into it to get it to that point.

 

The actual rank of the Warframe, well, who gives a stuff if it's 0 or 7 if you've invested enough effort into the build to be able to install those mods?

I come from the MMO world so it seems I come from a different perspective of balancing.  Generally you need higher level stuff to do higher level things whenever you have some sort of a ranking system (ie: DOTA, LoL, WoW, CoD).  So yeah, the idea of being able to do things with absolutely no stats on a character does strike me as a little big OP. 

 

It could work in theory, but as it is now, it definitely needs to be flushed out more.  Mods need to have a higher max capacity, because as it is now, you just throw on energy syphon, a forma or two, and just max out every single mod you have with absolutely no decision making. 

 

 

"do his job just as well as a rank 30" - in Casta? You'd have to be a god among men with your super pro L337 skillze, because good luck surviving past wave 5 with lvl 60 Grineer Lancers annihilating your squishy lvl 0 Vauban, shooting the core from all sides, because you don't have any shield/health mods or Tesla to hold them at bay.

Ok, give me a rank 0 frost and you can do the exact same thing.  You don't even have to change the aura polarity. 

 

So basically a rank 0 vaub and frost can solo any defense mission. 

[koroa]

I do not like the new aura points bonus, I really like that they costs, so you have to sacrifice something on yourself to be enanched by the group, so you can build not just your frame, but also a team with different specific roles. 

 

BUT if the devs will introduce more planets with higher lvl mobs, more challenges for the later levels (like they did with the nightmare thing) I guess 14 or 30 points will not ruin the game, cause you have just that 11 slots to build your frame, I would like to see some alternative to redirection and vitality, 'cause if the devs will balance the game difficulty just making the mobs do more and more damage,it could be very lame. I guess that should be nice an AI upgrade or maybe groups of mobs that have combos. I would like to see maybe a parry mod or a stealth enanchment mod or a dodge mod and so on.

 

I trust you DE and I'll follow you as i did 'till Dark Sector ;)

[Tempera]

It could work in theory, but as it is now, it definitely needs to be flushed out more.  Mods need to have a higher max capacity, because as it is now, you just throw on energy syphon, a forma or two, and just max out every single mod you have with absolutely no decision making. 

I shall direct you back to my earlier post.

 

Yes. This change to the Aura system has allowed me to have Venom, Moult, Contagion, Miasma, Acrobat, Antitoxin, Continuity, Constitution, Diamond Skin, Enemy Sense, Fast Deflection, Flame Repellent, Flow, Focus, Fortitude, Handspring, Insulation, Lightning Rod, Marathon, Master Thief, Quick Rest, Rage, Redirection, Retribution, Rush, Shock Absorbers, Steel Fiber, Streamline, Stretch, Thief's Wit, Vitality, and Warm Coat on every single one of my Warframes.

 

I no longer have to think about anything, because installing an Aura Mod gave me twenty-two extra mod slots, 199 bonus mod capacity, and why not just throw in a free potato.

[Niftylen]

"Yay, now the game is mind-numbingly easy, that's what I wanted!"

 

-_-

[dave021]

Wow, you guys need to remember something, people posting on the forums are hardcore players. A game cant be balanced around us only. Also people are crying about max out mods...cmon seriously? If like me you have 2 frames you enjoy with 4-5 weapons using different setups, then getting all those mods to maximum is some serious work. Also leveling everything to level 30 and getting that mastery up too...

 

There is alot to do in the game, even more with the added difficulty.

If you wanted a real surviving experience then maybe try creating your own challenge and posting them on youtube.

DE is running around trying to please everyone and we all know there is no such thing as pleasing everyone.

 

I like the new change, not because I have more points, but because my friends playing the game have an easier time keeping up with my me. Im sure the game will add even more challenge and extra hard content, dont panic just because we get more points now.

 

Give it time and remember, you re not the only one playing the game.

 

[SirAuron]

"Yay, now the game is mind-numbingly easy, that's what I wanted!"

 

-_-

They still say t's hard. go run nightmare.

[lstalri]

They still say t's hard. go run nightmare.

Nightmare isn't hard, trust me. 

[SirAuron]

Nightmare isn't hard, trust me. 

Thats what very few people say to get a kick out of it. They are also the forma abusers.

[Kyte]

HEY GUYS, REMEMBER WHEN DE MADE THAT WEEKEND EVENT THAT GRANTED GAVE YOU PRE-MAXED AURAS?

 

Oh wait.

That doesn't exist.

 

If you're a new player, you will not have maxed mods or maxed auras. In fact, you will not have mods full stop. (Well technically you'll have four mods)

Think about this carefully.

The only way to get auras to increase your mod capacity is by participating in alerts. This specifies a minimum level of gameplay time.

Then you need cores or auras to level said mods.

 

And of course the mods to use.

 

The only, only, thing this does to Lv. 0 frames is let people who have already invested time into the game bootstrap their Lv.0 frames to an acceptable level in less time.

New players and casuals still need to play the game to get upgrades. They just get a new avenue of expansion.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Kyte

[Winterbraid]

So the optimal balance point, per frame, you advocate is to have it all, unrestricted and never needing to make choices or deal with opportunity costs or equivalent values of mod use?

Customization or tailoring a Warframe to be anything but a maxed out duplicate of the guy next to him has no interest to you?

Good to know, thank you for stating your position so clearly so people know where you stand when seeking to debate you on the subject.

I do not agree with your position in the slightest even if I understand why some people want it that way. In my opinion and analysis, that is the single most destructive path forward the game could choose.

DE may feel differently.

 

I don't really get your point. What I was trying to illustrate is that the current system is better than the previous, solely Forma-based one precisely because it gives people extra wildcard slots that are free of polarity and that they can experiment with. It allows us to achieve what we could already achieve, but with fewer artificial limitations.

 

Previously you had to gradually lock yourself into a single build, or a limited variety of builds, due to the fact the only way to gain extra points was to add more polarities and therefore limit your mod choices. And that meant gradually locking yourself into a tanked caster build, because Warframe is an arms race between your HP and DPS and the enemy's HP and DPS. (That, or a specialized rusher build, which meant ending up with a frame that was useful for nothing except low level boss runs.)

 

A.k.a. you ended up exactly where you don't want to end up: with a frame that was nothing but a maxed out duplicate of the next guy.

 

Build locking only adds false difficulty to the game because it encourages you to maintain several copies of the same class. It contributes nothing to the gameplay.

[Orthusaku]

HEY GUYS, REMEMBER WHEN DE MADE THAT WEEKEND EVENT THAT GRANTED GAVE YOU PRE-MAXED AURAS?

 

Oh wait.

That doesn't exist.

 

If you're a new player, you will not have maxed mods or maxed auras. In fact, you will not have mods full stop. (Well technically you'll have four mods)

Think about this carefully.

The only way to get auras to increase your mod capacity is by participating in alerts. This specifies a minimum level of gameplay time.

Then you need cores or auras to level said mods.

 

And of course the mods to use.

 

The only, only, thing this does to Lv. 0 frames is let people who have already invested time into the game bootstrap their Lv.0 frames to an acceptable level in less time.

New players and casuals still need to play the game to get upgrades. They just get a new avenue of expansion.

 

 bootstrap their Lv.0 frames to an acceptable level in less time? I'm sorry but I don't understand

[Orthusaku]

I don't really get your point. What I was trying to illustrate is that the current system is better than the previous, solely Forma-based one precisely because it gives people extra wildcard slots that are free of polarity and that they can experiment with. It allows us to achieve what we could already achieve, but with fewer artificial limitations.

 

Previously you had to gradually lock yourself into a single build, or a limited variety of builds, due to the fact the only way to gain extra points was to add more polarities and therefore limit your mod choices. And that meant gradually locking yourself into a tanked caster build, because Warframe is an arms race between your HP and DPS and the enemy's HP and DPS. (That, or a specialized rusher build, which meant ending up with a frame that was useful for nothing except low level boss runs.)

 

A.k.a. you ended up exactly where you don't want to end up: with a frame that was nothing but a maxed out duplicate of the next guy.

 

Build locking only adds false difficulty to the game because it encourages you to maintain several copies of the same class. It contributes nothing to the gameplay.

 

Nothing is stopping you from using mods in slots that don't have the same polarization.

[Saenol]

They still say t's hard. go run nightmare.

 

 

Nightmare is still easy.

 

I have yet to fail or even be incapacitated in a nightmare mission in the most recent hotfix.

 

I don't really get your point. What I was trying to illustrate is that the current system is better than the previous, solely Forma-based one precisely because it gives people extra wildcard slots that are free of polarity and that they can experiment with. It allows us to achieve what we could already achieve, but with fewer artificial limitations.

 

Limitations are part of what makes a game challenging and entertaining.

 

Working around those limitations is what makes a game rewarding.

 

This change removes limitations, and thus reduces challenge all-round while turning the investment and effort people used to get around prior limitations into liabilities. Not only is a third or fourth forma wasted on a frame now, it actually makes them worse. A frame with 0-2 repolarizations can slot any combination of anything, but one with more can still run out of points if it deviates too heavily from what it was originally built for.

 

 

 

And that meant gradually locking yourself into a tanked caster build, because Warframe is an arms race between your HP and DPS and the enemy's HP and DPS. (That, or a specialized rusher build, which meant ending up with a frame that was useful for nothing except low level boss runs.)

 

I completely disagree with this assessment of the game.

 

My go to frame has less sheild, less health, and less DPS than many, yet I often still do better. Tactics, skill, and approach are more important than raw DPS and ability to take damage.

 

I don't often use a "tanked caster" build, and I do well.

 

 bootstrap their Lv.0 frames to an acceptable level in less time? I'm sorry but I don't understand

 

My rank 0 frames now have 14 points available, rather than zero. Thus I can dominate more challenging missions, or go the extra 5 or 10 waves, and rake in more affinity faster.

 

The aura change makes the difference between haves and have nots, new players and veterans, much larger. A new player has maybe 2-4 extra points from an aura, I will always have 14 because I can always slot a maxed out mod of the correct polarity.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Saenol

[SirAuron]

"Wait and see" I said it, devs said it and that's that. This system is going no where and you'll just have to deal with it.

[Niftylen]

Thats what very few people say to get a kick out of it. They are also the forma abusers.

Our forma 'abuse' is keeping DE's coffers lined with cash then... Shame we don't have such an incentive to fuel our addiction now... 

[SirAuron]

Our forma 'abuse' is keeping DE's coffers lined with cash then... Shame we don't have such an incentive to fuel our addiction now... 

Then DE is now being generous in sharing the forma points. Now you have more forma to build dojos with and put towards weapons.

[Winterbraid]

Our forma 'abuse' is keeping DE's coffers lined with cash then... Shame we don't have such an incentive to fuel our addiction now... 

 

Truth be said, Forma was overly needed before, and in too large a quantity to explain its equal Platinum cost to potatoes. Forma this, Forma that, oh! but you also need Forma to build clan stuff. Meanwhile you only need one potato per weapon, one potato per frame, and no more.

 

With new weapons coming out at a much faster rate than new frames, and likely with new Dojo stuff to come as well, I heavily doubt reducing the Warframe Forma costs will hurt the sales that much.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Winterbraid

[Niftylen]

Truth be said, Forma was overly needed before, and in too large a quantity to explain its equal Platinum cost to potatoes. Forma this, Forma that, oh! but you also need Forma to build clan stuff. Meanwhile you only need one potato per weapon, one potato per frame, and no more.

 

With new weapons coming out at a much faster rate than new frames, and likely with new Dojo stuff to come as well, I heavily doubt reducing the Warframe Forma costs will hurt the sales that much.

True that, although it is very easy to join fully-built clans, so I don't think the everyman needs tons of forma, and anyways, it isn't going to help forma sell that they aren't necessary for frames now, that's the only point I'm making. I got flamed pretty hard just trying to defend my views.

[LazyKnight]

True that, although it is very easy to join fully-built clans, so I don't think the everyman needs tons of forma, and anyways, it isn't going to help forma sell that they aren't necessary for frames now, that's the only point I'm making. I got flamed pretty hard just trying to defend my views.

So far I have used 3 forma on warframes and 12 on weapons. I think DE is safe that people will still be buying forma.

Edited July 17, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Winterbraid]

True that, although it is very easy to join fully-built clans, so I don't think the everyman needs tons of forma, and anyways, it isn't going to help forma sell that they aren't necessary for frames now, that's the only point I'm making. I got flamed pretty hard just trying to defend my views.

 

Selling less of one thing doesn't mean they will sell less overall. Previously I was reluctant to shell out plat on other stuff due to the sheer amount of Forma necessary even for a clan-less player. I was also hesitant to try out different frames (and thusly no potato money from me) because of the prospect of having to Forma them 3 or 4 times before they'd feel on par with my 5-star Saryn.

 

Now that Forma is no longer mandatory just to make a frame decent, I feel more inclined to branch out and invest more into stuff like helmets; hell, might even buy a frame for plat after I upgrade my founder package.

 

I'm honestly at the point where I care less about the grind and just want to try out new things and generally play the game.

[Orthusaku]

Selling less of one thing doesn't mean they will sell less overall. Previously I was reluctant to shell out plat on other stuff due to the sheer amount of Forma necessary even for a clan-less player. I was also hesitant to try out different frames (and thusly no potato money from me) because of the prospect of having to Forma them 3 or 4 times before they'd feel on par with my 5-star Saryn.

 

Now that Forma is no longer mandatory just to make a frame decent, I feel more inclined to branch out and invest more into stuff like helmets; hell, might even buy a frame for plat after I upgrade my founder package.

 

I'm honestly at the point where I care less about the grind and just want to try out new things and generally play the game.

 

 

forma was never required to make a frame decent.

[LazyKnight]

forma was never required to make a frame decent.

It depends on the frame and what you want out of it. I only used 1 on my frost prime because I got everything useful I wanted at the ranks I wanted. Also, decent is a subjective term and for level 20 content I could use zero warfame mods and long as my weapon were good, for level 70 nightmare It would be suicide not to use every slot I could wisely.

[IcarusNine]

Keeping all four of your skills, the most expensive but reasonable mod config you can have is:

Redirection, Steel Fiber, Vitality, Constitution, Master Thief, and either Rush or Focus.  Polarising every slot, this costs 59 mod points.  Basically, it can be done without an aura module.  Assuming Rush, you'd need to Forma together 3 Defense and 3 Bar polarities.

 

So what's the worst thing you could do to this build with 3 D and 3 B polarities (and keeping all four skills)?  You could swap out Redirection, Steel Fiber, and Vitality for Focus, Continuity and Rage, all Y polarities.

This would total... 74 mod points.  Exactly what you can do with an aura module.

 

That's pretty uncanny.

And would probably be wrecked the moment DE adds more Offense polarity modules (really, only three?) or more modules that cost 11+ energy.