The reason why people should pay more than 15k credits for a research

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

On 4/21/2017 at 4:34 AM, NecromancerX69 said:

Congratulations, you are one of the many reasons now the market prices are all messed up, hope you are proud of yourself.

After all, everyone deserves stuff for free right? Next thing you will be asking for Rare Prime Parts to be sold for 1 platinum or full warframe prime sets for 10 platinum.

[I won't answer you back, but just to be clear, the only scumbag in this community is people like you]

I don't think you understand how a market works.

Items haven't an intrinsic price. Prices are created by the market, when the seller and the buyer agree on it. In the case of the ignis wraith bp, there are sellers who are willing to sell it at a price of 0, buyers who agree on this price, so the right price for the iwbp is 0. The end. The market works perfectly; you may whine as much as you want, it won't change the price.

Now we can try to understand why the iwbp is so cheap. Generally, the price is an equilibrium between the rarity of the offer, and the need of the buyer. If there's no need for the good, no one buys it and the price drops to 0; if there's no rarity, people find it everywhere and the price drops to 0. An iwbp cost 15k credit, that's nothing in the context of Warframe, hence there's no rarity at all; and need isn't that big (the weapon is kinda cool but far from meta, and everyone can get a slightly downgraded version). Selling an iwbp is like selling a pebble from your backyard: if you're trying to get money from it, people who need a pebble will go away and ask someone else, eventually they'll get their pebble for 0.

Prime parts isn't comparable in any way. Prime parts are rare, there isn't enough prime part for every player. Your comparison is nonsensical. The market agrees with me: the market price of an iwbp is 0, the market price of a prime part isn't 0.

Instead of insulting people who are following the incentives created by the system, maybe you should insult the system creating those incentives. This requires you to use your brain thingy to understand the system.

 

[NecromancerX69]

15 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

 I think it's trying to tell me something...

With that out of the way, stop dragging me back to this topic I no longer care. Thanks.

Edited June 7, 2017 by NecromancerX69

[NecromancerX69]

5 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

So long and thanks for all the salt

[Daktaro]

wow some people are greedy :c don't even understand the idea of wanting to be nice for the sake of being nice. 

i only started warframe a few months ago so wasn't here for the event. i got the ignis wraith blueprint for free from a guy. he told me another guy gave him a bp for free too, plus some extras and told him to pass them along to other tenno who don't have it. that was such a nice thing to do from both of these players and results in just good feelings all around. you don't forget this type of kind gesture.

i can say for sure if i had been around during the event and worked for the ignis wraith research, would totally give them out for free as well. would not have a problem with new clan members grabbing the blueprint and giving it for free either. would probably even encourage them to do so. with something that's able to be endlessly replicated i don't see the issue. regardless, like previous poster said - if a price is agreed upon between buyer and seller, the price is right. 

[CoffeePoweredGenocide]

On 2017-6-6 at 10:54 AM, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Spoiler

 

I don't think you understand how a market works.

Items haven't an intrinsic price. Prices are created by the market, when the seller and the buyer agree on it. In the case of the ignis wraith bp, there are sellers who are willing to sell it at a price of 0, buyers who agree on this price, so the right price for the iwbp is 0. The end. The market works perfectly; you may whine as much as you want, it won't change the price.

Now we can try to understand why the iwbp is so cheap. Generally, the price is an equilibrium between the rarity of the offer, and the need of the buyer. If there's no need for the good, no one buys it and the price drops to 0; if there's no rarity, people find it everywhere and the price drops to 0. An iwbp cost 15k credit, that's nothing in the context of Warframe, hence there's no rarity at all; and need isn't that big (the weapon is kinda cool but far from meta, and everyone can get a slightly downgraded version). Selling an iwbp is like selling a pebble from your backyard: if you're trying to get money from it, people who need a pebble will go away and ask someone else, eventually they'll get their pebble for 0.

Prime parts isn't comparable in any way. Prime parts are rare, there isn't enough prime part for every player. Your comparison is nonsensical. The market agrees with me: the market price of an iwbp is 0, the market price of a prime part isn't 0.

Instead of insulting people who are following the incentives created by the system, maybe you should insult the system creating those incentives. This requires you to use your brain thingy to understand the system.

 

Thanks for your nice argumentation, although I disagree in few points, wich I am just going to reply on the basis of the one I do it the most. When you said that prime parts it is something that can not be fairly compared to iwbp because "prime parts are rare". It seems that you are ignoring that there are no sweatshops in a darker corner of the world manufacturing the prime parts, it is something randomly generated in warframe and the total amount of prime parts in existence are always increasing (even with baro), the same way that the total amount of iwbp are always increasing.

Then there is the problem, two items with the same characteristics: Players want it, the number is increasing, is exchange using the market platform. but there is a crucial difference, players can replicate iwbp whenever they want due to the low cost while the prime parts have a higher cost: time expended to obtain them. At this point is were I disagree with the low cost of replicate a print in the clan, no all the clannies participated in the process of acquiring the iwbp but all them can replicate it and mostly the new members, they should not be able to do so, since the iwbp was a titanic effort from all the clannies that actually farmed the event, so for those of you that think is not fair, think of those players that farmed with the illusion of giving their clan an iwbp, they pay the grind plus the 15k while the ones that are giving it away  the print only paid 15k. if there is a clan where all of the members farmed and all the members decided to donate the prints well my apologies Robin Hood clans do exist, but most likely the leaders of most of the clans just decided what everyone was thinking.

24

 

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

10 hours ago, -VV-mago_de_muerte said:

 

New prime part are produced at every instant, you're right about that. This this why the prices drop (until the prime part is vaulted and the production drops).

But this is exactly what the name says: a production. Someone decide to take some time to create a prime part, every ten minutes or so he gets an uncommon part. Then he may sell the uncommon part, this is the same as selling those ten minutes of play. And as I said, there is a rarity: even if you may produce enough prime part so every player has every prime item, you won't do that because it takes too much time, and right now I don't think there enough prime part on the market for everyone.

In the other hand, credits are a byproduct. You do anything, you get credits. You create two prime parts, you get 15k credits (on top of your two prime parts). You do a sortie, you get 100k (on top of the reward from the sortie). etc. Credits are precious when you begin the game and you have 300+ weapon and 39 frame to craft, they are worth nothing when you've crafted the majority of the stuffs: you get more credits than you'll ever need. 15k is the tip you give because you don't bother to count the money.

To continue the pebble analogy: your backyard has some value; you worked hard to have one, you won't let everyone use your backyard at any time (but you may decide to rent it - although most of the people just decide to enjoy their backyard with their family and friends). This is the prime part. The pebbles in your backyard are a worthless byproduct: you wouldn't have any pebble if you didn't have a backyard in the first place, but you don't care and will give those for nothing; even if you care, your neighbor doesn't and will give pebble for free: you won't be able to sell pebble. (the thing that may have some value is selling a large quantity of pebbles, like every pebbles from your backyard; in the analogy this would be the same as several million of credits; but 1 pebble is the same as 15k credit, it's worth nothing)

 

(concerning prime parts there's another thing making it a very good candidate for trade: you spend 10 minutes, you get an uncommon prime part. There's a high probability you don't care about this part because you already have it. But there's someone who need it; and a third person who have the prime part you need. Barter isn't be a possibility because the person who need what you have isn't the same as the person who have what you need. Hence, money etc.

In other words, getting a prime part costed 10 minutes of your time, but getting that prime part will cost several hours to the person who needs it - and getting the prime part you need will also cost you several hours - but the price is more based on the time you need to get a prime time, since that's what people do: they spend 10 minute and sell whatever they got. Hence, if you don't like fissures, it's cheaper for you to sell those ten minutes of your play time, and use the money to buy 10 minutes of someone else

In other words, since there's no specialization - there no job system with specialization in the form of leveling phase - the candidates for trading are the RNG rewards, since it makes you have stuffs you don't need).

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa

[ScribbleClash]

6 hours ago, -VV-mago_de_muerte said:

 

First of: Learn how to use quoting properly. Please do not add your own content inside of a quote.

Yes, prime parts do not need to be generated by someone assembling them. That however falls to the grind for relics and the part itself. The timewall of this is one part that makes primeparts different at their core from the ignis wraith bp. They both share that, once you've built the item, the interest as well as the value drops. However prime parts do not necessarily persist after this, as they may be converted to ducats, getting them out of the equation, or giving them at least a base worth above 0.

And again, all this is supposed to achieve is to force your views on others. If other clans do wish to share their bp as they wish, they shall do so. If new members in your clan go against your clans agenda, kick them out. Just because you were ONE of the many clans in the top 10% does not mean you get to govern over all of their obtained content as well.

Stop trying to sugarcoat this.

[CoffeePoweredGenocide]

On 2017-6-12 at 6:09 AM, ScribbleClash said:

First of: Learn how to use quoting properly. Please do not add your own content inside of a quote.

Yes, prime parts do not need to be generated by someone assembling them. That however falls to the grind for relics and the part itself. The timewall of this is one part that makes primeparts different at their core from the ignis wraith bp. They both share that, once you've built the item, the interest as well as the value drops. However prime parts do not necessarily persist after this, as they may be converted to ducats, getting them out of the equation, or giving them at least a base worth above 0.

And again, all this is supposed to achieve is to force your views on others. If other clans do wish to share their bp as they wish, they shall do so. If new members in your clan go against your clans agenda, kick them out. Just because you were ONE of the many clans in the top 10% does not mean you get to govern over all of their obtained content as well.

Stop trying to sugarcoat this.

why so angry, I'm cannot possible force anythingon anyone, what are you talking about?, how can I do such thing from my house. If I wanted do something is to share my point of view and trying to show the logic after it, if you started to feel convinced of some of my ideas is because I presented them with reasoning.

So are you saying ducats don't have any worth in warframe?

why would you kick people from a clan for such a childish reason that awful man. The idea is to make clans worth something and not just be a nursery of baby tenno, saying that iwbp should be more expensive or at least have something that involves being part of a good clan. I remind you that making clans in warframe is easier than farting, anyone can go a create one, but making a clan active, fun and capable of achieve a 10% that is another history.

sugar is better than salt ;) 

[CoffeePoweredGenocide]

On 2017-6-12 at 3:45 AM, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

New prime part are produced at every instant, you're right about that. This this why the prices drop (until the prime part is vaulted and the production drops).

But this is exactly what the name says: a production. Someone decide to take some time to create a prime part, every ten minutes or so he gets an uncommon part. Then he may sell the uncommon part, this is the same as selling those ten minutes of play. And as I said, there is a rarity: even if you may produce enough prime part so every player has every prime item, you won't do that because it takes too much time, and right now I don't think there enough prime part on the market for everyone.

In the other hand, credits are a byproduct. You do anything, you get credits. You create two prime parts, you get 15k credits (on top of your two prime parts). You do a sortie, you get 100k (on top of the reward from the sortie). etc. Credits are precious when you begin the game and you have 300+ weapon and 39 frame to craft, they are worth nothing when you've crafted the majority of the stuffs: you get more credits than you'll ever need. 15k is the tip you give because you don't bother to count the money.

To continue the pebble analogy: your backyard has some value; you worked hard to have one, you won't let everyone use your backyard at any time (but you may decide to rent it - although most of the people just decide to enjoy their backyard with their family and friends). This is the prime part. The pebbles in your backyard are a worthless byproduct: you wouldn't have any pebble if you didn't have a backyard in the first place, but you don't care and will give those for nothing; even if you care, your neighbor doesn't and will give pebble for free: you won't be able to sell pebble. (the thing that may have some value is selling a large quantity of pebbles, like every pebbles from your backyard; in the analogy this would be the same as several million of credits; but 1 pebble is the same as 15k credit, it's worth nothing)

 

(concerning prime parts there's another thing making it a very good candidate for trade: you spend 10 minutes, you get an uncommon prime part. There's a high probability you don't care about this part because you already have it. But there's someone who need it; and a third person who have the prime part you need. Barter isn't be a possibility because the person who need what you have isn't the same as the person who have what you need. Hence, money etc.

In other words, getting a prime part costed 10 minutes of your time, but getting that prime part will cost several hours to the person who needs it - and getting the prime part you need will also cost you several hours - but the price is more based on the time you need to get a prime time, since that's what people do: they spend 10 minute and sell whatever they got. Hence, if you don't like fissures, it's cheaper for you to sell those ten minutes of your play time, and use the money to buy 10 minutes of someone else

In other words, since there's no specialization - there no job system with specialization in the form of leveling phase - the candidates for trading are the RNG rewards, since it makes you have stuffs you don't need).

 

Awesome explanation and I agree but all this mean by logic than the effort of an entire clan is meaningless, in front all the process you described here than can be done by one single tenno. I think warframe community should move forward with the clans and make them worth something, other than a recipient full of blueprint where u have to spent  60 secs in the recruiting chat to have access to.

[ScribbleClash]

16 hours ago, -VV-mago_de_muerte said:

why so angry, I'm cannot possible force anythingon anyone, what are you talking about?, how can I do such thing from my house. If I wanted do something is to share my point of view and trying to show the logic after it, if you started to feel convinced of some of my ideas is because I presented them with reasoning.

So are you saying ducats don't have any worth in warframe?

why would you kick people from a clan for such a childish reason that awful man. The idea is to make clans worth something and not just be a nursery of baby tenno, saying that iwbp should be more expensive or at least have something that involves being part of a good clan. I remind you that making clans in warframe is easier than farting, anyone can go a create one, but making a clan active, fun and capable of achieve a 10% that is another history.

sugar is better than salt ;) 

The only explanation I have for what you seemingly have read is that you somehow read a thread from an alternate dimension and ansewered to it in this one. That or you simply do not understand anything of what I said.

Let me make this as simple as it is, the facts:

You asked to raise the credit cost of the ignis wraith bp.
Your reasoning for this was that some people sell it for 0 platinum.
The general interpratation of this leads to that you are salty that you can not make a profit of this.
You go on to desperatly(as in, they have no value) make up examples to support your idea. You even go as far as to suggest that opposition means your point of view has merrit. That is not the case.
-> What I am seeing in this is an exceptionally selfish wish.

Now to go on with the response to your answer.
"why so angry" - I am not angry. I haven't used all caps or any other means to indicate an emotion.
"because I presented them with reasoning" - No you didn't. There is nothing reasonable to this.
"you saying ducats don't have any worth" - Where in the world did I say this? I said you can exchange prime parts for ducats, getting them out of the equation. Obviously they have some sort of worth, otherwise why would this be a tool to make prime parts more rare? Simplified for you: I did not say that. If they had no worth, primes would not be exchanged for it. Exchanging a prime raises the value of said prime, as it becomes more rare.
"why would you kick people" -  I wouldn't. I'm saying, if they do not adhere to whatever your clan has as a rule, you may do so. But just because you don't want new players to get something as easy as you did (and don't kid yourself, getting the bp in the event itself was basicly given, your clan worked to the research for future members. None of that work was just for yourself), you shouldn't try to make it bad for every player across all clans.

Sugar makes you fat. One spoon of salt can kill you. I say salt wins.

[Chemoryx]

On 6/12/2017 at 4:15 AM, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

New prime part are produced at every instant, you're right about that. This this why the prices drop (until the prime part is vaulted and the production drops).

But this is exactly what the name says: a production. Someone decide to take some time to create a prime part, every ten minutes or so he gets an uncommon part. Then he may sell the uncommon part, this is the same as selling those ten minutes of play. And as I said, there is a rarity: even if you may produce enough prime part so every player has every prime item, you won't do that because it takes too much time, and right now I don't think there enough prime part on the market for everyone.

In the other hand, credits are a byproduct. You do anything, you get credits. You create two prime parts, you get 15k credits (on top of your two prime parts). You do a sortie, you get 100k (on top of the reward from the sortie). etc. Credits are precious when you begin the game and you have 300+ weapon and 39 frame to craft, they are worth nothing when you've crafted the majority of the stuffs: you get more credits than you'll ever need. 15k is the tip you give because you don't bother to count the money.

To continue the pebble analogy: your backyard has some value; you worked hard to have one, you won't let everyone use your backyard at any time (but you may decide to rent it - although most of the people just decide to enjoy their backyard with their family and friends). This is the prime part. The pebbles in your backyard are a worthless byproduct: you wouldn't have any pebble if you didn't have a backyard in the first place, but you don't care and will give those for nothing; even if you care, your neighbor doesn't and will give pebble for free: you won't be able to sell pebble. (the thing that may have some value is selling a large quantity of pebbles, like every pebbles from your backyard; in the analogy this would be the same as several million of credits; but 1 pebble is the same as 15k credit, it's worth nothing)

 

(concerning prime parts there's another thing making it a very good candidate for trade: you spend 10 minutes, you get an uncommon prime part. There's a high probability you don't care about this part because you already have it. But there's someone who need it; and a third person who have the prime part you need. Barter isn't be a possibility because the person who need what you have isn't the same as the person who have what you need. Hence, money etc.

In other words, getting a prime part costed 10 minutes of your time, but getting that prime part will cost several hours to the person who needs it - and getting the prime part you need will also cost you several hours - but the price is more based on the time you need to get a prime time, since that's what people do: they spend 10 minute and sell whatever they got. Hence, if you don't like fissures, it's cheaper for you to sell those ten minutes of your play time, and use the money to buy 10 minutes of someone else

In other words, since there's no specialization - there no job system with specialization in the form of leveling phase - the candidates for trading are the RNG rewards, since it makes you have stuffs you don't need).

 

This is definitely a very good analogy, but if you don't mind, I'd like to add to it.

There's also the time is money analogy which was briefly implied here as it seems, but was not directly mentioned. 

Prime parts take time to farm. Prime parts rely on praying for rng to come through every time you do a mission, and each mission takes time. People generally don't donate their time unless they are getting something back from it. If compared to the pebble analogy, if someone is in your backyard and asks you for a pebble, it's as easy as bending down, picking up the pebble, and handing it to them. At that point, why would someone pay for a pebble?

To the original poster:

It does not at all take any effort to get Ignis Wraith. It is as simple as going to the dojo, copying it, and giving it away. Hell, I think many of us can agree that Ignis Wraith should've been given to everyone, but that's besides the point. Market prices aren't boring being Ignis Wraith is an expendable item that is both easy to get once a clan has it, and has an unlimited supply with a low demand. When supply goes up and demand goes down, prices drop considerably. The demand for Ignis Wraith is very low due to players only needing ONE blueprint. The supply is unlimited, and that alone drops the price considerably.

There will always be people willing to give away Ignis Wraith. You can raise the cost of replicating, but you are trying to justify making all research more expensive because of one blueprint.