Observations And Proposals For Improvements [Warning: Long Post}

[Aizeol]

Disclaimer:

Before I get into the list I'd like to state that these are my opinions on things that I'd like to see in Warframe. Some of them are radical changes, some are mild tweaks, and others are just straight additions. I do not claim to be the master of everything, but I do believe that all of my changes serve the purpose of making this game as great as possible. As I am trying to work in concepts, I won't be working with concrete numbers; I will leave that to those more qualified to handle that.

If disagreements occur, or the material doesn't look to be improving the game, please feel free to tell me. I am looking for discussion. We may have differing points, but I will always entertain any alternate opinions.

Finally, if there is something I've listed that doesn't make sense or seems to be incorrectly phrased, please feel free to PM me or let me know and I will go into more detail.

TL;DR? : Don't be a $&*^ and I won't be. I'm looking for feedback and discussion, not flaming.

With that out of the way, begin the list!!

Shield Hardening Mod

-A.) Shields now resist damage just like armor(for players) does for health

--i. Cannot be equipped with Fast Deflection or possibly causes the shields to regen

slower.

--ii. Is not as effective at resisting damage as armor is (stat wise) (because shields

recharge.)

-B.) Purpose is to have a "shield tank" build that relies on resisting damage, but having a limited pool to do so and having less heatlh.

--i. It can't be too effective to negate armor

--ii. It can't be too over powered to become the "most effective" or "only useful" build

--iii. The goal is to have it be an option that some 'frames can use, but not all.

Void Tower missions aren't actually towers

-A.) Small gripe/request (nothing extremely serious)

-B.) Void environment looks awesome, but it's more of a hallway with not a lot of vertical movement.

Blank/Prototype Frame

-A.) No real powers or has generic powers (a blast, small boots, radial effect, radial damage)

--i. Could be used in the tutorial instead of Excalibur (which makes Excalibur more significant of a choice)

--ii. Would only be allowed to use a limited selection of weapons (probably Tenno+Non-prime)

--iii. Would be moderately fast, but not durable

-B.) Players might be able to keep it after the tutorial (would occupy its own slot)

Melee weapons effecting movement, stats, etc.

-A.) Give melee weapon selection meaning (beyond which slab of metal being used to pound skulls in)

--i. Give running speed buffs/debuffs based on the class of the weapon (noticeable, but not huge)

--ii. Make players put a little thought into HOW they want to play the mission

-B.) Blocking: Make is useful

--i. Size of weapon effect the damage it can block

-----a. Bigger weapons can block more damage

-----b. Smaller weapons block less damage

--ii. Size of weapon influences secondary effects

-----a. bigger weapons resist knockdown/back and stun

-----b. Smaller weapons are able to parry: For a split second (a few frames) the weapon is able to block 100% damage (at the cost of significant stamina). Some weapons might be able to redirect the damage or projectile back, and other might have a radial stun or mini-stun effect.

Why is stamina necessary? (what is it being used for?)

-A.) Specifically for Sprinting

--i. "Rushers" will always find a way to move faster than everyone, so limiting sprinting just hurts the players that don't know the exploits

--ii. Blocking while sprinting makes sense. There is not need to be a ninja when you can be a running tank instead.

-B.) It makes sense in other games

--i. In Skyrim, and Demon's/Dark Souls, it is a resource that must be managed.

-----a. You need it to attack and sprint in combat that doesn't move extremely quickly, but needs quick movements sometimes

-----b. If you run out of stamina, it can mean defeat if you are in a bad spot.

--ii. In Warframe, it's just there to stop people from sprinting around the map

-----a. Melee consumes stamina, but you can't attack fast enough to every run out

-----b. Jumping also uses stamina, but again you can't jump enough to run out because it recharges too quickly.

--iii. Personally, I'd like to either see that stamina goes away, or becomes more significant

-----a. You can sprint faster is you have stamina

-----b. You can jump higher/farther if you have stamina

-----c. Melee attacks do significantly more damage or have armor penetration if you have stamina

Why is recoil so off?

-A.) Full auto guns have essentially no recoil

--i. Bullet spread is not recoil

--ii. Why can I stay on target with a gun that can empty a 50+ round magazine in less than 4 seconds?

-B.) Burst fire weapons don't work like they should

--i. Burst firing is used to keep a target centered while maintaining a higher fire rate

--ii. Burst weapons in warframe must be firing tank or artillery shells while they are being held by children

-----a. They don't stay on target through a full burst

-----b. They go even more off target when the last bullet is fired.

C.) WHY?!?!

Armor(on enemies)

-A.) Armor on enemies doesn't work like any armor I'd wear

--i. When I shoot an enemy with armor, why doesn't the armor actually help?

-----a. Yes it resists damage, but that isn't really enough

-----b. Shouldn't heavy armor negate all damage done by bullets?

----------Bolt weapons should have a slight nerf in damage (maybe), but be allowed to deal at least half of their damage or 3/4 damage when hitting an armored part of an enemy

----------Arrows should always deal 100% damage

----------Many Warframe abilities should deal 100% damage, as well as most Melee weapons

-----All of this would give armor significance, and give enemies a way to become more challenging without relying on more health

--ii. As enemies get higher leveled, they need to get more armor if that is what the faction relies on

-----a. This mainly concerns Grineer

----------In the beginning levels (1-5), Lancers would be a more serious threat if they are immune to damage done by bullet weapons (the only weapons that beginners will have) except for certain areas, the head, lower back, joints, etc.

----------To balance this, there would be more melee focused Grineer that have no armor so the New Players aren't overwhelmed and can work on the skills needed to take out enemies that can shrug off bullets.

----------Enemies in later levels would also have stronger armor that is more resistant to puncture and armor piercing mods.

Puncture and Armor Piercing

A.) Puncture

--i. There has been a lot of controversy over what puncture should do, so this is my view. It's a buff with a slight debuff.

-----a. Puncture is no longer measured in meters, but in what strength of armor it can pass through.

----------Basically, it will always go through 1 or 2 enemies, and will travel until it hits something

----------The strongest the puncture mod could get is always one level below what ever the strongest armor level is. (The armor used on endgame bosses or enemies)

----------Any enemy hit after the puncture will take 50% less damage (since the bullet will be traveling much slower than before)

----------This would only work for bullets not bolts, and would be the only way for a bullet to get through armor and deal 100% of its damage

B.) Armor Piercing

--i.Armor Piercing isn't a straight +% to damage, but instead measures how much damage gets through armor that would normally block it.

--ii. The maximum amount of damage allowed to go through with bullets would be 60ish percent (arbitrary number is arbitrary)

C.) How the two work together

--i. Puncture would allow 100% of the damage of a bullet (not bolt or arrow) to go through an enemies armor (actual armor, not damage resistance)

--ii. Armor Piercing allows a percentage of damage to go through, and works with both bullets and bolt/arrows

--iii. If used together, the bullet hits the first target and does 100%, and when the second target is struck it will then calculate how much of the 50% damage gets through

--iv. Yes, it's complicated. No, I'm not sorry that someone has to do math so it's not overpowered.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Aizeol

[Aizeol]

[Post Reserved]

[TheMcDuncan]

I've read over this post a few times, And honestly, I cannot think of a single thing to add.
I seriously love all of these ideas.

[Aizeol]

I've read over this post a few times, And honestly, I cannot think of a single thing to add.

I seriously love all of these ideas.

Thank you, kind sir. :)

[Aizeol]

[bump for views]

[Aizeol]

[One last bump before bed]

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

I'm not too into any of these suggestions except for the one with the blank frame.

 

For some reason having a completely blank frame with very minimal appearance and no special powers appeals to me.

I'm thinking something in the lines of this:

 

http://beyouonlybetter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/istockphoto_5597539-wooden-drawing-doll.jpg

 

This could be called "null" and be perfect for the tutorial mission and would have completely standard stats. No advantages, no drawbacks, just a completely average frame. I also seriously like the template power idea as it leads to my next suggestion:

 

A tutorial system of one mission with a specific level tailored to give the player training in everything they need.

Before the mission, you would have access to the mod system and you'd slot in the power mods into the frame (which would start at max level) and the system would explain polarities and such in the meantime.

 

Then the mission would start, you'd be led through shooting, dodging, hacking, parkour elements and picking up an objective at the end.

[bkralp24]

Shield Hardening Mod

 

The Shield Hardening Mod is a good idea I think. The mod that increases shield recharge time really is pretty useless which I see as their sort of attempt at being like Steel Fiber. I like the restrictions you have on this idea also.

 

Void Tower missions aren't actually towers

 

I can see your point of view on the void tower mission. Maybe there can be a cool void tower mission where you are killing through mobs on each floor and constantly taking elevators up. At the top their should be a boss to make it more challenging. I can see this as a future void mission though, not really any improvement on the current levels. I really don't have a problem with the current set up though.

 

Blank/Prototype Frame

 

I guess this is a good idea only since the beginning warframes you can make in the game later on. Perhaps instead of a blank warframe, they keep the current setup and make it so the other starter warframes are from the earlier, easier bosses (why is Excalibur on Pluto?). If the other starter warframes you do not pick are on the beginning easier planets then the starter players can try the other starter warframes easier. However, with this idea comes the whole problem with inventory space. Since they only give you 1 extra spot before you have to purchase more slots i guess that might not be as good. So will change my idea right now to agree with you lol. After typing all this out and thinking about it I see exactly what you are going for especially letting you keep it with it's own slot. Give the new players more than 1 spot when there are so many interesting warframes to try!

 

Melee weapons effecting movement, stats, etc.

 

I like this idea of melee weapons changing movement speed. If you are using a giant axe then it should be heavier and cause you to move slower I suppose. That would definitely get the Rhino and Frost people to not use heavy weapons though. Those warframes are already slow enough. As for the blocking idea, I still don't think it would be used. Nobody wants to have to block attacks I think and there are already things you can do to not have to block (stagger enemy with attacks / slow them with ice damage). However, I do like your second part for the block function of resisting knockback/stun and for light weapons to parry. What would the weapons in the middle do? Like a Scindo would help you to not get staggered as easily and Dual Zoren can parry, but what would a Skana do? I think there is a middle area of weapons that are somewhat lost in the idea.

 

Why is stamina necessary? (what is it being used for?)

 

I like your idea about Stamina too. There really isn't much that Stamina does except cause a small annoying when you run out. If you run out of stamina in a bad place in this game it regenerates so fast that you could just jump slide to safety or something. Most of the bad places that you encounter anyways is when there are tons of enemies shooting at you and you have to hide. This bad situation doesn't really have to do with stamina. On a side note, you can attack fast enough with melee weapons to run out of stamina (Dual Zoren with attack speed mod :P) but it just constantly regenerates while attacking so it doesn't even matter because when you stop attacking it is still just regenerating. I like your idea of taking away stamina or giving you benefits for having it. Why should be really be limited to how much we can run? The sprint boost and jump boost sound kinda interesting. I think that the melee attacks doing more damage with stamina is a little too much though. 

 

Why is recoil so off?

 

A lot of games have this recoil problem. In so many shooter games the automatic weapons have almost no recoil. I don't really complain about this though because I don't really care about it to be honest. Recoil doesn't effect my game play too much it would just be a small adaptation in my mouse movements. Also, I haven't used their burst rifle yet so I don't have an opinion on that at this point. I understand where you are coming from on this idea but it really isn't something I am too worried about myself.

 

Armor(on enemies)

 

The armor idea you have is probably your only point that I pretty much disagree with. I see that you want to make it more realistic in a way where the armor they are wearing actually does something. I just see that idea as more wasted bullets and more of an annoyance for people. Even though I disagree with you I see where you are coming from once again. I would not really want to have to be specifically aiming at parts of enemies to even do any damage. I think their way of standard damage and increased damage for weak spots is just fine. This is just my opinion though just like your idea was your opinion.

 

Puncture and Armor Piercing

 

I like your puncture idea that it should pass through certain amount of enemies or based on armor rating of enemies. I just can't really see what the puncture mod would say on it though. Would is go from something like "Can pass through enemies with light armor and deal 50% damage to enemies behind it." up until says heavy armor? Maybe this idea has to be a little more clear and definitive. Would it go through 1 or 2 enemies or until it hits something? Maybe I am just not fully understand it. Also, why do you want this to only work on bullets? I can't see them being ammo specific on this type of thing. It would just be like a rifle mode or something. You armor piercing damage idea really just goes with your previous idea regarding giving enemies thicker armor. It sounds like a good idea if the before mentioned idea is put into effect.

 

Conclusion:

 

For the most part I like your ideas and some would be cool if they are implemented in the game. It is always good to have someone brainstorming ideas like this for DE to give them ideas of what types of things they want to put in their game. All of the things I said were my opinions on your ideas as I was reading them and really shouldn't be taken too seriously. Overall I say good work!

[xenapan]

My issue with these kinds of posts are

a) what is broken and WHY does it need fixing?

b) how much time and effort will it take and how much better will the gameplay be because of it?

c) how will it affect DE's bottom line?

as far as I can tell, DE uses a agile development cycle. They choose a bunch of features from their ideas (and some of ours) to add/improve on for each cycle after asking the above kinda questions, then they pick ones that will impact the players or them the most, then develop them. entire mechanic reworks like changing the way penetration works, armor piercing works, thats a whole lot of effort, for 0 real effective change for players and them. it doesnt help their bottom line and it doesnt improve gameplay. Those are the kinds of suggestions that will never get put into the game because they do no one any good. its "cool" but really doesn't impact gameplay in a meaningful way.

 

For instance the way shields work: whats the point of the shield tank? How would that improve player "options"? How is it different from putting on more shields? From my point of view I see no point in the change because there seems to be no real benefit to changing the mechanic. It doesn't improve gameplay. It allows a shield tank.. but so what? what does that bring to the table? You can make a "shield tank" with more shields the way it is. all you need to do is release another dual mod that increases shields. or two more. or three more. it doesnt benefit gameplay, it doesn't benefit DE. On the other hand, it would be reworking the whole damage system, you would have to tweak existing stats entirely, go through every single enemy and change their shield values. then go through all the frames and balance the base and gains. All for what? absolutely no benefit. So some cool concepts.. maybe. but nothing useful.

 

I'm sure DE has better things to do than to probably break something that isnt broken.

[Aizeol]

I'm not too into any of these suggestions except for the one with the blank frame.

 

For some reason having a completely blank frame with very minimal appearance and no special powers appeals to me.

 

I'm thinking something in the lines of this:

 

http://beyouonlybetter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/istockphoto_5597539-wooden-drawing-doll.jpg

 

This could be called "null" and be perfect for the tutorial mission and would have completely standard stats. No advantages, no drawbacks, just a completely average frame. I also seriously like the template power idea as it leads to my next suggestion:

 

A tutorial system of one mission with a specific level tailored to give the player training in everything they need.

Before the mission, you would have access to the mod system and you'd slot in the power mods into the frame (which would start at max level) and the system would explain polarities and such in the meantime.

 

Then the mission would start, you'd be led through shooting, dodging, hacking, parkour elements and picking up an objective at the end.

I do like this very much. I'd really like them to really rework the whole tutorial, and I mean actually rework it. They need to teach wallrunning, and sliding, and several other maneuvers in the game. The "new" tutorial doesn't actually do anything different than the old one, but it does look cooler.

Thank you for fleshing out the "Null" frame. Good stuff man. :)

 

 

Conclusion:

 

For the most part I like your ideas and some would be cool if they are implemented in the game. It is always good to have someone brainstorming ideas like this for DE to give them ideas of what types of things they want to put in their game. All of the things I said were my opinions on your ideas as I was reading them and really shouldn't be taken too seriously. Overall I say good work!

Thank you sir. You had several good points, sadly I'm too tired right now to reply to any of them individually. I will reply to the two that you asked more about though.

My goal with armor(on enemies) is to put a bigger emphasis on skill in the game. Right now, players shoot anything they want, with any gun they way, and do damage. My hope is that if you put invulnerable sections on an enemy, then a player will have to stop for just a second and aim. Now, I didn't want that to be too difficult, so having a larger section on the enemy's back to allow for team play (one taking fire the other flanking behind) and having bolt weapons ignore armor someone (so solo play isn't impossible for those that have trouble consistently aiming, I'm guilty of that).

As for puncture, I didn't get into armor as much as I wanted. My point was that armor should have "classes" or "levels". Enemies start with level 1 armor, and eventually go to level 5 or something. Puncture works in levels as well. It starts with 1, but goes up to whatever the second highest is. If the armor on enemies goes up to 5, puncture only goes up to 4. This makes enemies in the later game much more significant threats. These enemies require skill AND equipment to beat.

I'll make a separate post about this, but I want this game to actually reward skill. Armor on enemies making them invulnerable on certain parts of their body will be one step. The other thing I think I didn't write as clearly is that enemies won't start off like lancers already.

They would start of with smaller pieces of armor, to give players a slight advantage, and not require them to only get head shots. As the enemies get higher and higher leveled though, the armor gets more and more complete. Hell, this way, the devs could make an enemy for missions that aren't defense or exterminate that is immune to all bullets. This enemy is meant to be avoided. That is a different discussion all together though.

[Aizeol]

My issue with these kinds of posts are

a) what is broken and WHY does it need fixing?

Nothing is particularly broken, but that doesn't mean it's working the best way it can. There are always ways to improve something, and since we are in beta, now is the time to do that. If the devs wait, they will have a product that will get stale quickly, or isn't as engaging as it could be.

 

b) how much time and effort will it take and how much better will the gameplay be because of it?

To me, I don't find this argument to be enough of a deterant. It is better to spend the time and energy now, to make a better game later. It may take a long time, but it will be worth it. My goal is to make this game wholly unique and interesting and the best game it can be. To have the game reward the skills and choices of the players beyond just giving the players bigger numbers to throw at enemies would be a start. Having enemies be easier to kill depending on how you fight them, going for critical hits on the parts of their body that are weaker, using different weapons for different factions, or actually just planning for an encounter even if it's just a...

"Hey should I take the bow into the next map"

"Nah dude, we are going up against Infested. There'll be lots of little dudes. Bring the Braton"

"K"

... If the game actually had people talking like that all of the time, then I feel the game has achieved the ability to not be just a grind fest.

 

c) how will it affect DE's bottom line?

Well, simply put a better game will have more people willing to play which will have more people that might want to make a purchase. Sure, a majority won't, but if there are more people in game at all, then the amount of people that pay will also go up.

Honestly, I don't expect the changes, if any occur, to happen quickly. The changes I've proposed have always been changes that take time, because the system isn't broken, but it needs retooling.

 

I'm sure DE has better things to do than to probably break something that isnt broken.

But it is in their best interests to make the game as amazing as they can. If that means seriously looking at it and saying, "That isn't good enough. It works, but we can make it better." now is the time to do that. Not a year down the line when they can't avoid it anymore.

[Aizeol]

Bump

[Aizeol]

Anyone have anymore comments?