Quality Of Life Changes For Gamepad Players

[Narroo]

This post address some issues that are of a bit different nature than the other gamepad post, and will be a bit long, so I've made a separate topic that isn't too redundant.  Of course, with the PS4 launch coming up, these problems are already being addressed, I bet.  I just feel like writing this up anyways, and hope that the PS4 controls will be implemented- if not flat out tested, on the PC version.

 

The topics are:

 

Alternate Melee Controls

Multiple Wall Running Controls

Multifunction Button Mapping

 

Also, since it's important, I'll give you the set-up I've been using for warframe.  The default one I find to be atrocious. 

 

I am using:

 

PS3 Dual Shock via Motioninjoy

 

                    L2-Aim                                                                             R2-Shoot

                    L1- (Hold to) Crouch                                                     R1-Run

 

             Up-Switch Weapons                                                            Triangle-Melee

Left-Ability Select         Right-Ability Select                  Square-Reload       Circle-Ability Use

                    Down-Use                                                                            X-Jump

 

                                    Select-Items                       Start-Pause

 

                                    L3-Block                              R3-Waypoint

 

And there we go.  Why is this set up this way?  Well, to put everyone who reads this on the same page, I'll explain how the pad is laid out:

 

The game pad's buttons can be divided up into four sections; eight if you separate left and right.  These sections are:

 

The Sticks: The left stick is usually used for character movement and the right for camera movement.  The sticks are operated by the thumbs; while in use the thumbs are unavailable for immediate use in another section.  The sticks also contain a single button each, L3 and R3.  The buttons are poor and awkward to use so you want to avoid mapping functions to them.  If you do, you want to put buttons that are not used much, and are not being used while the stick is in motion.  Putting Run on L3 was a nonsensical move because you have to use it so much, and use it while moving.  It was uncomfortable, to say the least.

 

The Main Face Buttons:  These are the d-pad buttons and shape buttons.  They're operated by the thumb.  The thumb is a very dextrous digit and dance upon the it's set of four face buttons like a ballet dancer.  You place your often used action buttons there, if possible.  But, as a drawback, the face buttons can not be used at the same time as the corresponding stick; You cannot properly move and use the d-pad at the same time; you cannot aim and use properly use the shape buttons at the same time.

 

Start/Select/Home:  These are the three center buttons.  Their positioning makes it somewhat awkward to move from the face buttons or sticks to them.  You use them usually for menus and what not.  Things that don't need to be done quickly or often, but yet you don't want them on L3 or R3. 

 

The Shoulder Buttons:  The L1, L2, R1, and R2 buttons.  These are usually used with the index finger, or if in a pinch, somewhat awkwardly with the index and middle fingers.  These have the special distinction of not using the thumb.  As such, they can always be used simultaneously with the other three sets.  This is important for third person shooters.

 

What this means for Warframe:

For a third person shooter, you are constantly moving laterally with the Left Stick and Aiming the camera with the Right Stick.  This makes the Face and middle buttons unavailable for immediate use.  As such, any actions which are used simultaneously with the camera and movement MUST be mapped to the shoulder buttons.

 

For warframe, there are exactly four buttons, which without a doubt, require shoulder button mapping.  These are: Aim, Fire, Run, and Crouch.  We do not consider L3 and R3 because they're terrible buttons, especially when you're tilting the stick.

                        

The Problem With Melee Attacks

Here's the problem.  While only 4 actions need to be mapped to the 4 shoulder buttons, there is a fifth action which needlessly requires a position on the shoulder to use properly: Melee.  Melee attacks require the use of the camera button to aim, which is unnecessary.

 

When you melee attack, the character turns and attacks where the camera is point, thus you have to maneuver both the right and left sticks in order to land an attack.  Putting Melee on a face button makes this awkward, but it cannot be well avoided because you can't move properly in warframe without having the shoulder buttons mapped as they are.  This makes using Melee attacks cumbersome..

 

Most melee attacks take place in the 2-D plane your character walks in.  The left Stick controls movement and orientation in 2D quite well, much more so than WASD.  You can point your character in whichever direction you choose without use of the right-stick or mouse. 

Most contemporary 3rd person games, like Devil May Cry or Bayonetta which use Melee attacks take advantage of this by having your character swing in the direction he is facing- to aim a melee attack you press the left stick in the direction you want and hit triangle.  They're even mapped the same way I have it and it works amazingly.  The melee attacks in those games, in a mechanical sense, function the same way as they do in warframe.

 

Putting in an option for gamepad players to make melee attacks aim the way your frame is facing, and not the camera, would remove unnecessary difficulties in using them and help pad players a lot, I suspect.  A ninja gaiden style soft-lock on might help too, though I doubt it would be necessary. 

 

The Problem with Wall Running

 

Running on multiple surfaces with a pad is a bit of a pain?  Why?  Well, first:

 

One of the great advantages of a pad is that you can control your movement and the  camera completely separately.  (The camera can affect movement, but the left stick can be moved in opposition to this to count it, reguardless of direction.  WASD only moves you in 4 directions, so it's a bit more limited.)

 

One of the disadvantages of the gamepad is that you can't really jump and move the camera at the same time; this is problematic with wall running, especially multiple wall runs.

 

When you do a wall run, you have to be facing the wall a bit.  This is natural with a keyboard, but not with a gamepad.  With a gamepad, you have to fangle with hitting the jump button-assuming your not using "hold to wallrun" and moving the right stick.  Worse, once again, this isn't necessary.  You can indicate which direction you want to move with the left stick- the right stick should not be necessary to tell the game you want to wall run.  It would be very helpful if we could have a option for gamepads where wall-running was controlled by just the left stick and not the camera.  This is a similar issue as the melee attack issue.

 

Also, in general, I find "Tap to wall run" to be a bit glitchy- it doesn't like activating.  But that's another story.

 

Button Mapping

Now, I know this has been said before and doesn't really fit with the other two issues, but...

Button mapping:  We need be able to map multiple functions to a single button.  In particular, I'm thinking mapping reload and use to the same button.  Most console shoots do this and it works fine.  Doing so would free up a much needed button on the face of the controller!  For instance, I could map reload/use to down, and move block to square!  Wouldn't that be nice? 

-----

 

Wow, what a long winded post to get to a few simple points.  Oh well, perhaps people will find this interesting.  Anyways, I believe these functions will come with the PS4 version of Warframe;  I can only hope that the PC version will see these additions soon.

 

In fact, if I may ask, how hard would it be to implement a "Swing in the direction the character is facing/left stick is pressed?"

 

Other than that- I'm tired and I bet you're all tired of reading this, so see ya!

 

Maybe I'll edit in a bit more latter about fixes for gamepads if I feel like it- this post is already so long!

 

[LeoAtKnight]

Well.. I guess you don't play Claw..

I played a lot of Armored Core in my time, so I'm used to this style, but I understand most people arn't willing to adopt it.

But I agree with all your points about the controls and mapping. I personally hate gamepads myself, but I would hate even more if my teammates suffered because of poor control optimization.

But for some reason I feel I have to correct you on something, WASD can move eight directions, not four. We still have diagonals.

In any case, +1

Not much else to add when I'm this tired at night.

[Cauldrath]

I definitely agree on the melee and wallrunning controls. Wallrunning in this game seems to just require too many buttons in general, for both mouse/keyboard and controllers. It should probably just require holding run instead of both run and jump. Then you could hold a direction with the left stick and press jump and you would jump off the wall that way.

The buttons on the sticks themselves have the same advantage as the triggers in that you can press them while using the sticks, if you are willing to put up with the discomfort, so that gives you access to more button flexibility. I also use toggle for crouch, so I can hit the crouch button and do whatever I need to do while crouching/sliding, which frees up another button. You could swap crouch with block in my setup if you want access to it at all times, though. You'd probably want to swap use power and weapon switch, too, but since most powers make you stop moving and need to be aimed, I prefer having access to the right stick when using powers over the left stick.

My current setup is:

L2 Aim

L1 Jump

R2 Shoot

R1 Melee

L3 Hold to Run

R3 Block

Triangle Weapon Switch

Square Reload

X Use

Circle Toggle Crouch

Up Use Power

Left/Right Cycle Power

Down Items

Select Waypoint

Start Pause

[Narroo]

Well.. I guess you don't play Claw..

I played a lot of Armored Core in my time, so I'm used to this style, but I understand most people arn't willing to adopt it.

But I agree with all your points about the controls and mapping. I personally hate gamepads myself, but I would hate even more if my teammates suffered because of poor control optimization.

But for some reason I feel I have to correct you on something, WASD can move eight directions, not four. We still have diagonals.

In any case, +1

Not much else to add when I'm this tired at night.

Ah, the claw.  And can and will do the claw in a pinch.  But it's not comfortable and isn't really necessary.  It would only need a few minor and common alterations to make the standard controller scheme work.  As for WASD, I was thinking you have 4 main directions and the diagonals are just combinations of the buttons.  Depends on how you view it.

 

I definitely agree on the melee and wallrunning controls. Wallrunning in this game seems to just require too many buttons in general, for both mouse/keyboard and controllers. It should probably just require holding run instead of both run and jump. Then you could hold a direction with the left stick and press jump and you would jump off the wall that way.

The buttons on the sticks themselves have the same advantage as the triggers in that you can press them while using the sticks, if you are willing to put up with the discomfort, so that gives you access to more button flexibility. I also use toggle for crouch, so I can hit the crouch button and do whatever I need to do while crouching/sliding, which frees up another button. You could swap crouch with block in my setup if you want access to it at all times, though. You'd probably want to swap use power and weapon switch, too, but since most powers make you stop moving and need to be aimed, I prefer having access to the right stick when using powers over the left stick.

My current setup is:

L2 Aim

L1 Jump

R2 Shoot

R1 Melee

L3 Hold to Run

R3 Block

Triangle Weapon Switch

Square Reload

X Use

Circle Toggle Crouch

Up Use Power

Left/Right Cycle Power

Down Items

Select Waypoint

Start Pause

I did mention the stick buttons in my post.  And while they technically work, I think they're terrible to actually use.  Plus, that discomfort isn't really needed at all; if they fixed melee attacks you can move melee to triangle and run to R1, which I bet you'd find more comfortable. 

 

Also, you do know there is a menu option to disable "hold jump to wall run"?  It's exactly what you described.  Actually, I don't think you even need to hold run while wallrunning to keep running if you use that.

 

I recommend you try my control scheme and disable "Hold to wallrun." You will probably find Running, sliding, and the associated combo moves much easier, and they're pretty vital to the game.

 

[Cauldrath]

From my testing when it first came out, turning off hold to wallrun just makes it so you press jump to start a wallrun, but you have to press it when you are considered colliding with a wall. Because the hit detection is so finicky that means you have to match the arbitrary timing of when that happens with your button press, so it's easier to just leave it on hold.

[Narroo]

From my testing when it first came out, turning off hold to wallrun just makes it so you press jump to start a wallrun, but you have to press it when you are considered colliding with a wall. Because the hit detection is so finicky that means you have to match the arbitrary timing of when that happens with your button press, so it's easier to just leave it on hold.

It is finicky and needs to be fixed.  But it's still there and helps if you're on a gamepad. 

[Narroo]

Wow!  Just check the new patch notes!  Melee camera help away! Great timing!

[Superdoo]

I never really had a problem with the controls until they took the toggle sprint option off the gamepad configuration.  Not having to hold the button to run makes it a lot easier for me to wall run.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Superdoo

[Gigatron-Prime]

Just got done with some playtesting the controls on a gamepad. I think the movement controls need a lot of work as well as the aiming and tracking for the gamepad. It's very hard to do acrobatic manuevers or advanced manuever melee attacks with the current setup.

[Misgenesis]

Whats wrong with M&KB?

[Hadera]

Having the camera not control melee direction would be nice, sucks that option isn't functioning.