Loki Rework

[Bakercompany86]

well i proposed a stun because just imagine the skill from the enemy's point of view

 

A guy in front of you move his hands and suddently your gun, along with all the guns of your friends, simply explode!

I would be shocked! A stun would fit perfectly the reaction :)

 

edit: X seconds must not be a lot... soldiers would recover fast both from the illusion of switch teleport and the explosion of radial disarm... i would propose a Stun effect / Illusion effect of 1-5 seconds based on skill level... like: 1-2-3-5

I was more thinking that a stun combined with invisibility grants you a huge invulnerability window.  Wanted to keep it fair to other frames.  i'd settle for AOE damage too. Or how about a little damage, with a snare? ;)

[Cwierz]

nononono, loki is perfect the way he is. the only thing I would like to see is enemies shooting in his general direction when he is invisible if  they were alerted to his presence. same thing with shade.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Cwierz

[Paprika]

I like the Stun/Snare on the Disarm and the idea concerning the Ulti going through walls.

Radial Disarm's range is not very good either, so I suggested that if Radial Disarm is cast when a Decoy is present, the Decoy casts the Disarm, and Loki casts Radial Blind, instead.

 

The Invisibility not affecting Sentinels needs to be fixed, no question about it.

 

I'm a bit iffy about your suggestiong on Switch Teleport, though.

 

EDIT: The above refers to Pheonix's suggestions.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2013 by Paprika

[Paprika]

nononono, loki is perfect the way he is. the only thing I would like to see is enemies shooting in his general direction when he is invisible if  they were alerted to his presence. same thing with shade.

 

I don't know. A lot of people are gonna feel he's fine the way it is, but I personally feel he needs a rework. Each to his own, eh?

 

Actually, having enemy AI be improved to the point that they may be able to infer where Loki is if they take damage is not a bad Idea.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Paprika

[Grulos]

You said it yourself - why change something that is perfectly fine?

 

The suggestions you made are... crap, sorry.

 

Loki works as intended and is super awesome.

[Paprika]

You said it yourself - why change something that is perfectly fine?

 

The suggestions you made are... crap, sorry.

 

Loki works as intended and is super awesome.

 

Well, ok. My suggestions are quite possibly bad, but there are a few people that think that Loki isn't perfect and that he does need changes. Read through the thread. You'll find a lot of things that are irrefutably a problem. I mean, you can't honestly say he's perfect if he doesn't do jack to the Infested.

[Troublechutor]

You said it yourself - why change something that is perfectly fine?

 

The suggestions you made are... crap, sorry.

 

Loki works as intended and is super awesome.

In build 8, I totally agree... I'd be against this thread (and you can see my comments in other "rework" threads). 

 

I only offer my suggestions on the basis that if build 9+ is the new paradigm, and we're not going back, then Loki is a dead frame for solo play.  Or I should say, I'll just forma my power slots to defense slots and keep invisibility.  Then I'll just upload gameplay of me running around invisible to youtube as an testament to the stupidity of taking the so-called "advanced" frame and dumbing it down to a one trick pony.

 

If you think Loki is "just fine" I presume you can solo defense missions past stephano?  Because I can't, and I was doing it just fine before build 9.

[ArktinenSieni]

I'd just change the following:

 

- Invisibility: now cloaks the sentinel too

- Radial Disarm: goes through walls, covers, etc... add a stun effect X seconds

- Switch Teleport: after switching the enemy it will have your same aspect and the enemies will shoot him thinking it's you!! (for X seconds)

 

the last one would perfectly suite the Loki theme imho

 

Agreed. The changes on Radial Disarm and Switch Teleport Phoenix suggested does fit in to Loki's "trickster" role. 

In my opinion making Invisibility affect your sentinel should be also balanced so that sentinel can't attack during Invisibility. 

[Phoenix86]

Agreed. The changes on Radial Disarm and Switch Teleport Phoenix suggested does fit in to Loki's "trickster" role. 

In my opinion making Invisibility affect your sentinel should be also balanced so that sentinel can't attack during Invisibility. 

 

thx for supporting :)

 

@paprika: radial disarm's range is one of the biggest! 20m! it's problem that let you think is not good is exactly because it doesnt go through walls/covers

[Troublechutor]

One thing that I've harped on and need to keep saying is this

 

If invisibility affects the sentinel, then decoy has to be incredibly tough.  The reason being is that if you drop aggro with invisibility, the hostage/pod gets insta killed.

 

Alternatively, if Invisibility is usable on the hostage/pod, then you have (for 100 energy) a few seconds to get your &#! out of trouble.

 

The sentinel not going invisible allows you to hold aggro as you move and hopefully keep the hostage/pod alive while you invis.

[Troublechutor]

thx for supporting :)

 

@paprika: radial disarm's range is one of the biggest! 20m! it's problem that let you think is not good is exactly because it doesnt go through walls/covers

Yes it does.  Go to a galleon level, run around invis and get some baddies to spawn, go to the other side of a wall and cast... I actually recorded video of this working.

 

What I think people are seeing is when some mob spawns and runs into an area you just disarmed, and you're thinking they were there the whole time.

 

I have NEVER had a disarm not go through cover, floors, ceilings, walls, elevators, other mobs, players or anything else, ever.

[Paprika]

thx for supporting :)

 

@paprika: radial disarm's range is one of the biggest! 20m! it's problem that let you think is not good is exactly because it doesnt go through walls/covers

Well, then. Perhaps I'm not the most qualified person to be making suggestions. :O

[Phoenix86]

Yes it does.  Go to a galleon level, run around invis and get some baddies to spawn, go to the other side of a wall and cast... I actually recorded video of this working.

 

What I think people are seeing is when some mob spawns and runs into an area you just disarmed, and you're thinking they were there the whole time.

 

I have NEVER had a disarm not go through cover, floors, ceilings, walls, elevators, other mobs, players or anything else, ever.

 

i dont know man... i've never used it post-U9 but i'm pretty sure it doesnt go through stuff pre-U9... it was a 'problem' subject of many topics in the past

[Troublechutor]

Well, ok. My suggestions are quite possibly bad, but there are a few people that think that Loki isn't perfect and that he does need changes. Read through the thread. You'll find a lot of things that are irrefutably a problem. I mean, you can't honestly say he's perfect if he doesn't do jack to the Infested.

For the record, I consider infested missions incredibly easy for Loki... you don't need disarm, you can decoy and power-swing melee all day long and nothing will touch you.

 

 

 

i dont know man... i've never used it post-U9 but i'm pretty sure it doesnt go through stuff pre-U9... it was a 'problem' subject of many topics in the past

As I said, I've tested (and used to my advantage) disarm through literally everything in the game.  I've never seen one mob unaffected by it due to any kind of cover.

 

I'm pretty sure the players that complained about it before are/were mistaken... last time I had this debate I went and captured video just to prove I wasn't crazy... it works fine until someone shows me it NOT working.

 

Just to provide a definitive example :

The last stage of mobile defense missions, the artifact rolls out... at the end of the tracks are a stack of boxes.  When this mode was first released, you could stand on those boxes and greneer would not come into the room.  The pathing/ai bugged out and the congregated on the level ABOVE you in one big clump.  Just a single mass of idiot-AI standing around and bumping into each other.  Just to break the boredom, I would radial disarm and ALL of them would suddenly path into the room normally with batons out.  I did this before I heard others claiming this would not ever work, and yet...

 

So from my personal experience, this is how it works.  Anyone show me a video of it not working like this and I'll be quiet :D

Edited July 24, 2013 by Troublechutor

[Paprika]

Actually, how many of you think that it's Update 9 that's the problem with Loki's usefulness and not the moveset? If it's totally update 9, then this thread has no purpose, and we should be pinpointing how Update 9 is affecting frames.

[ArktinenSieni]

One thing that I've harped on and need to keep saying is this

 

If invisibility affects the sentinel, then decoy has to be incredibly tough.  The reason being is that if you drop aggro with invisibility, the hostage/pod gets insta killed.

 

Alternatively, if Invisibility is usable on the hostage/pod, then you have (for 100 energy) a few seconds to get your &#! out of trouble.

 

The sentinel not going invisible allows you to hold aggro as you move and hopefully keep the hostage/pod alive while you invis.

 

Good point. (Even I usually end up killing my sentinel >.< )

[Phoenix86]

-snip-

 

Shall u share the link of ur vid please?

[KaoKill123]

err pre-U9.

Decoy manage to last a few lasts of heavy fire and that's it. recasting it will be ignored by enemies.

Invisibility fails to clock sentinel, making it the hot-spot

Switch-teleport, dont use it much since it's useless except for Orgis raid in defense wave

the ulti is crap, mine is at level 1. make enemies go into melee mode, but damage seems to be equally that of grineer's melee unit.

 

in U9.

Decoy cant last a few shots from level 50+ mobs

Invisibility remains the same.

Switch is also the same in pre-U9

the ulti only make some enemies go into melee mode, or maybe that's just me...

[Troublechutor]

Actually, how many of you think that it's Update 9 that's the problem with Loki's usefulness and not the moveset? If it's totally update 9, then this thread has no purpose, and we should be pinpointing how Update 9 is affecting frames.

For me, update 9 broke loki... all invis or die is the solo experience anyway, and you can't invis through a defense.

 

There are a lot of factors that play into this... not going into a threadnaught about everything thats wrong with update 9, you can search the update 8 loki threads for most of these same suggestions and me complaining that Loki was fine and should not be touched.

 

Assuming that update 9 is the new paradigm, then you simply can not solo loki though the content provided thus far.  Too many thinks OHK you past Uranus, and even saturn level defense is more or less unbeatable with him.

Update 8 was too easy, but they went the wrong path for upping difficulty in Update 9.

[E.R.I.C]

And here I am.

To say.

No.

 

-I'd suggest Blinding the infested with radial disarm similar to excal's radial blind along with it's current effect.

 

-Right now, my health is 213. My life depends on Invisibility and I use it only when I'm forced too (I'm taking health damage or about to) and that doesn't always save me.

 

-Decoy could explode into a flash of light, Also blinding enemies. But not harming them. 

 

Not much more needs to be done.

 

Loki is a trickster, his moves need more "trick"

 

it'd be more of a "trickster" this way

so i'd say the 4th skill should be make the decoy alive and do the same amount of damage as the caster and can move freely.

[Troublechutor]

Shall u share the link of ur vid please?

I never uploaded it, I recorded a bunch of it, realized I was trying to prove a point that was easy to prove, and demanded that someone show me proof of it NOT working.  The reason being, I can't prove a negative, so the burden is on them (you?) to prove your point.

 

However, I just gave you the scenerio you need to test it yourself... it works, prove me wrong.... I can upload lots of video of it working fine if you like, but it won't PROVE anything (logic reasons)

[Paprika]

From what I hear, Pre-update 9, Invisibility was optional. After the update, Invisibility is now a must as the damage output is insane. The other abilities aren't used. It's not because Invisibility is better, it's that Invisibility is now a must. 

 

If the enemies remain as they are, regardless of whether or not AI is changed, Loki will need to be changed so that all his abilities in some way or the other keep damage off of him while still remaining similar to the abilities pre-update 9.

 

Either that, or the enemy armor and damage output should be nerfed, and the AI should be improved.

 

Is this the situation we are looking at now?

 

Edit: Grammar

Edited July 24, 2013 by Paprika

[Troublechutor]

I find that without a realistic chance of just missing, ranged enemies are a serious problem.  One major reason why decoy sucks right now is that nothing ever misses the decoy, even placed up high and behind cover, he still takes stupid volumes of incoming fire.  The damage is just the cherry on top.

 

Not being able to dodge bullets is one thing, but the AI's aim is just too damn good... so wall-running and sliding to cover is just the same as standing still.

 

Knockdown is the second major cause of loki-death.  Even if you are good enough to keep the incoming fire off you, all it takes is one Heavy behind a door to ground-smash you to bits.  Notice how everything that is a OHK vs. loki is so easily avoided by just running around invisible?  Honestly, even if they change the difficulty back to normal levels (normal being build 8 and before I guess) invisibility is just too strong and totally displaces everything else loki does.  The only reason NOT to perma-invis is the sentinel death that it causes... that and rescue/defense missions.

 

I'll point out another irony here... Loki is the fastest frame (short of volt-speed) out there, and this is justified by making him less armored and lower health/shields.  All this feeds into the scaling issue (defensive mods start from a lower base number) which eventually leads to loki being forced to play MUCH slower on end-game content.  You are required to use ample cover, stealth, and occasionally shade-hopping from mob to mob.  You know what that means?  Loki gets slower as the missions get harder... Rhino is a faster rusher than loki is because he can take a hit... Loki is stuck crawling around and invis-whoring to clear rooms.  Add to this the fact that as Loki you get fewer kills in this mode makes loki the slowest grind/farm frame for high level gear.  So what do we actually get for the lower armor, shields and health?  Speed?  Agility?  Sure, if you stay at earth and never advance from there... because after that you have to slow down so much that you rarely notice being especially agile or quick.

 

Not that I mind having to think, but it does get a bit silly the amount of time you spend hiding in a corner hoping nothing with a gun walks though the door while you wait on your energy siphon to feed you enough juice for another 25 seconds of invisibility.

[whitejackale]

Invisibility should end as soon as you hit an enemy. It should give a massive damage bonus for that strike, and it should refund a large amount of the energy cost on a successful hit. I want to see invisibility as a skill that makes loki pop in and out of the shadows.

 

edit: It wouid be interesting to have invisibility give you a set number of charges that are expended each time you strike an enemy. Every time that you strike an enemy, your invisibility should go down for a small amount of time before you automatically restealth..

Edited July 24, 2013 by whitejackale

[Kielix7]

Regarding Invisibility:

 

Right now I feel invis is a terrible game mechanic. Running around for 20+ seconds with invis constantly spamming melee is pretty boring, and it's about the only thing Loki has going for him right now. Same thing with Ash (but that's for another thread),

 

Anyway, I suggest switching invis for a dodge mechanic, where Loki has the aesthetic look of his Decoy, and has a percentage to dodge incoming projectiles. At least it wouldn't be as mind-numbingly boring to play Loki. Plus, it would add to his style of trickery, without introducing such a game-breaking mechanic.