Loki Rework

[Troublechutor]

Here is some footage of my playing loki without using any abilities in a random pluto mission. The weapon used was a braton that has never been formad, it only had a 40% multi shot mod. The kunai were formad twice and are my best weapon. If you want I can upload a screenshot of my terrible mods and non formad loki with terrible mods. I also did this with a death cube with no mods on its weapon, which is probably the worst choice for going out to solo on a loki without using abilities.

 

Anyone with decent mods would have a much easier time soloing on loki without using abilities, especially with more powerful weapons. I hope that this is enough for you and that you do not ask me to play another mission at 30 fps.

 

 

First off, I want to say that NOTHING below is meant to detract from what you did.  I said put up or shut up, and you put up.  Respect.

 

Now, real fast why this fails to impress.

1.  Its Hydra... I've literally been speedrunning this map since I was about rank 15 for credits.

2.  Its build 9.3, so its completely out of context.

3.  Were this build 9.2 or before, the toxic ancient hit at 1:37 would have killed you.  GG!

 

So, props for putting up a video, but you missed your chance to address the balance issues we were discussing, and you chose a map that you don't even need guns for. 

 

Edited July 27, 2013 by Troublechutor

[whitejackale]

First off, I want to say that NOTHING below is meant to detract from what you did.  I said put up or shut up, and you put up.  Respect.

 

Now, real fast why this fails to impress.

1.  Its Hydra... I've literally been speedrunning this map since I was about rank 15 for credits.

2.  Its build 9.3, so its completely out of context.

3.  Were this build 9.2 or before, the toxic ancient hit at 1:37 would have killed you.  GG!

 

So, props for putting up a video, but you missed your chance to address the balance issues we were discussing, and you chose a map that you don't even need guns for. 

 

1. You never specified any maps.

2. Whatever the build, I will continue to do most content without using loki's invisibility because I get no enjoyment out of an ability that allows me to remain invisible while killing everything. It is the cheesiest stealth mechanic I have ever seen, plain and simple.

3. It does not matter how hard the ancients hit, if I am running the game at 60+ fps while trying not to get hit, I do not get hit.

4. I was never trying to "impress" anyone. I said that I play loki without using stealth because it is a really lame stealth mechanic.

 

If you want you can choose a specific mission, within reason, for me to "impress" you. Be aware that if you choose one of the most dfficult missions in the game, I will be forced to use my shade, enemy radar, and decoy/switch teleport/radial disarm.

 

So go ahead and challenge me again if you want to see someone play loki without stealth at 30fps while having really weak mods on their warframe and weapons.(the loki in your video has double my loki's shield?)

Edited July 27, 2013 by whitejackale

[RextintorZ]

I would ask for a change on Radial Disarm. Change it to make enemies take damage as if their weapon exploded or something, because if you pay attention, they never get their weapon back. And maybe some attack or movement slowdown on Infesteds.

 

 

 

------

Edited July 27, 2013 by RextintorZ

[Troublechutor]

-snip-

The point is moot.  The difficulty has been ratcheted back in 9.3 to something "fair" so you can choose to use invis or not.  I could challenge you to every map in the game and still it won't settle the issue, because the game changed while we were talking about it. 

 

My point about the Ancient hitting you is that it was a OHK in 9.0, running 60 FPS isn't going to make sure you never get blindsided, or stunlocked and crushed, these things happen, and it was over the top.  My entire participation in this thread was on the predicated on the notion that this was the new paradigm... and if so, then things needed changing because invis. was MANDATORY.  I'm not claiming to like it, its clearly a crutch, but in 9.0 you could not clear more than 70% of the content reliably without relying on it.

 

Your claim you cleared 100% of the game without using it in 9.0 sounds pretty far fetched... my challenge was for you to show me some high level play in 9.0/1/2 when stuff was broken, its better now, I don't see how we have anything more to discuss about it since you literally can't back up your claim now. 

 

Look, if you wanted to prove something, you wouldn't have gone for ez mode anyway... you picked hydra because it was a way to prove your point without actually pushing yourself.  You know it, no reason to defend it.  As you said, I didn't specify a map, you went for the Hydra and, yeah, I'm basically calling that meeting the letter of the challenge rather than the spirit of it.  If it were a "bar-bet" I still wouldn't pay up because you missed the patch window for the discussion and also got hit by that ancient which would have killed you anyway... you get points for actually trying, but you fail on merits of what you put forward (timing and content).

 

I'm not here to validate your Loki play, I'm sure you have great success.  Rather than have me (or anyone) pick missions for you to do, next time put up your best stuff and there won't be any room for someone to criticize it.  (people will always point out the flaws or try to knock it down... just put your best out there and roll with it.)

 

PS: My loki is way more farmed than yours, who cares if I have more shields/health... the point I was making was you picked a map you don't need anything for to prove a point about not needing some things for.  Hence... mods/guns/frames are irrelevant.

[whitejackale]

The point is moot.  The difficulty has been ratcheted back in 9.3 to something "fair" so you can choose to use invis or not.  I could challenge you to every map in the game and still it won't settle the issue, because the game changed while we were talking about it. 

 

My point about the Ancient hitting you is that it was a OHK in 9.0, running 60 FPS isn't going to make sure you never get blindsided, or stunlocked and crushed, these things happen, and it was over the top.  My entire participation in this thread was on the predicated on the notion that this was the new paradigm... and if so, then things needed changing because invis. was MANDATORY.  I'm not claiming to like it, its clearly a crutch, but in 9.0 you could not clear more than 70% of the content reliably without relying on it.

 

Your claim you cleared 100% of the game without using it in 9.0 sounds pretty far fetched... my challenge was for you to show me some high level play in 9.0/1/2 when stuff was broken, its better now, I don't see how we have anything more to discuss about it since you literally can't back up your claim now. 

 

Look, if you wanted to prove something, you wouldn't have gone for ez mode anyway... you picked hydra because it was a way to prove your point without actually pushing yourself.  You know it, no reason to defend it.  As you said, I didn't specify a map, you went for the Hydra and, yeah, I'm basically calling that meeting the letter of the challenge rather than the spirit of it.  If it were a "bar-bet" I still wouldn't pay up because you missed the patch window for the discussion and also got hit by that ancient which would have killed you anyway... you get points for actually trying, but you fail on merits of what you put forward (timing and content).

 

I'm not here to validate your Loki play, I'm sure you have great success.  Rather than have me (or anyone) pick missions for you to do, next time put up your best stuff and there won't be any room for someone to criticize it.  (people will always point out the flaws or try to knock it down... just put your best out there and roll with it.)

 

PS: My loki is way more farmed than yours, who cares if I have more shields/health... the point I was making was you picked a map you don't need anything for to prove a point about not needing some things for.  Hence... mods/guns/frames are irrelevant.

I believe that you are making too many assumptions when you read my posts. Let me summarize what has happened so far.

 

1) I said that I play loki without using invisibility.(Initial Claim)

2) You decided to call me a liar and asked that I provide video proof of me doing a pluto mission without using stealth.(You requested that I provide proof for my claim)

3) Initially I said that I would not waste my time making a video of something so trivial. You decided to continue to pester me.

4) I caved in and decided to waste my time making a video for you.(I provided the proof that supported my original claim)

 

Why do you choose to continue with your irrational argumentation? The only claim that I made was that I choose to play loki without invisibility because I find it lame to be able to attack while remaining in stealth. I have even offered to do a more difficult map without invisibility as additional proof with new parameters, but you choose to continue to make assumptions and excuses.

Edited July 28, 2013 by whitejackale

[Troublechutor]

I believe that you are making too many assumptions when you read my posts. Let me summarize what has happened so far.

 

1) I said that I play loki without using invisibility.(Initial Claim)

2) You decided to call me a liar and asked that I provide video proof of me doing a pluto mission without using stealth.(You requested that I provide proof for my claim)

3) Initially I said that I would not waste my time making a video of something so trivial. You decided to continue to pester me.

4) I caved in and decided to waste my time making a video for you.(I provided the proof that supported my original claim)

 

Why do you choose to continue with your irrational argumentation? The only claim that I made was that I choose to play loki without invisibility because I find it lame to be able to attack while remaining in stealth. I have even offered to do a more difficult map without invisibility as additional proof with new parameters, but you choose to continue to make assumptions and excuses.

We're talking past each other.  You can re-read the thread to see how we got here, I'm comfortable with where it stands.

 

You are completely ignoring a very plain fact... the thread (specifically, my contribution) is discussing UD9-9.2 design.  There is no point in telling you to do something more difficult than you offered at this time, because the game changed.  So what part of that is an assumption or an excuse?  I'm not changing any parameters, THE GAME CHANGED, the context of the claim/counter-claim is lost... its done... what little you had to offer in that video includes I think 5 strikes from heavies that would have killed you pre-patch... (and you even needed a revive in the mission ffs) that only undermines your purpose for putting it up there in the first place. 

 

I suppose you can persist with the "I don't use invis" claim with the caveat that you're also comfortable with failure...

 

To put it another way... what could you possibly have left to prove to me in 9.3?  That you don't use invisibility or that its possible to play loki without it?  In 9.3 I doubt it would be to great a challenge to get away with it... but then you'll have to accept mission failure and copious use of revives, but sure, you can just fuse that invisibility mod away if you like.  Knock yourself out... nobody cares how you play Loki, or what your tolerance for pain is.  Go forth and play anyway you like... have fun.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Troublechutor

[whitejackale]

More stuff

I made a claim and provided proof within the parameters that you set.

You made a claim and have yet to provide anything but empty rhetoric.

I believe that I am done replying to you unless you have something more than empty rhetoric to offer.

Edited July 28, 2013 by whitejackale

[artemis9]

The only thing that needs to be Changed about Loki in my personal opinion is the artwork I just think he is ugle

[Winchester117]

I think Loki's RD should have more range and that Switch Teleport should let you switch with objects and not just enemies, allies and your decoy. Everything else is fine. Hell, if they did not make any changes I would still be perfectly ok with it.

[Valiant]

It doesn't need an overhaul. All he needs is his original Decoy aggro, poss strength increase, and allow disarm to go through objects and do more dmg to infested or something. 

 

I wouldn't mind switch being changed for something else though. Tried to use it but it seems like a waste of space.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Naith

[Troublechutor]

I made a claim and provided proof within the parameters that you set.

If you're looking to leave the conversation with your ego in tact, please just read the bolded parts below.  If you still feel like you can "win" this read the rest... (spoiler... you can't "win" this, there's nothing to "win" in 9.3 as the my point of being in the thread is moot, the patch fixed the OHK-fest, which validates everything I've said, and you video only provides evidence that playing without invis in that environment is suicide.  good day)

 

Wrong patch bro.  How exactly is that staying within the parameters?  Regardless, you can bail anytime you like, the conversation was done in post #101 when I gave you props for actually stepping up (even though it was late) and I pointed out with your video how you reinforced my arguments BASED one UD9.0 parameters.  So yeah, THANK YOU for helping me make my point about OHK-Heavies being over the top and forcing lame invis. play on Loki players. 

 

I get that you won't touch invis.  That makes you stubborn, and well acquainted with the revive button... I'm not sure that's what you were going for with your original foray into the thread, but that's what I'm left with.  You don't mind mission failures and revives, so be it.. just don't offer that kind of fail rate to the community as some sort of badge of honor.  If you like playing that way, by all means, be bad at Loki.  Again, nobody cares how you like to play.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Troublechutor

[Winchester117]

If you're looking to leave the conversation with your ego in tact, please just read the bolded parts below.  If you still feel like you can "win" this read the rest... (spoiler... you can't "win" this, there's nothing to "win" in 9.3 as the my point of being in the thread is moot, the patch fixed the OHK-fest, which validates everything I've said, and you video only provides evidence that playing without invis in that environment is suicide.  good day)

 

Wrong patch bro.  How exactly is that staying within the parameters?  Regardless, you can bail anytime you like, the conversation was done in post #101 when I gave you props for actually stepping up (even though it was late) and I pointed out with your video how you reinforced my arguments BASED one UD9.0 parameters.  So yeah, THANK YOU for helping me make my point about OHK-Heavies being over the top and forcing lame invis. play on Loki players. 

 

I get that you won't touch invis.  That makes you stubborn, and well acquainted with the revive button... I'm not sure that's what you were going for with your original foray into the thread, but that's what I'm left with.  You don't mind mission failures and revives, so be it.. just don't offer that kind of fail rate to the community as some sort of badge of honor.  If you like playing that way, by all means, be bad at Loki.  Again, nobody cares how you like to play.

 

Invis is good and all but thats not all loki has to be useful. You are making it seem as though Invis is all you can do to survive high levels and i disagree. I do just find without going invis all the time and there are plenty of other ways to help the team. I think you underestimate loki or just don't know how to use his other skills well enough.

[Kielix7]

-wounded pride-

 

Honestly, the only person who should be looking to save face is yourself.

You challenged him to play Loki without using Invisibility, he did it, but now he did it, it doesn't count?

 

You failed to specify ANY parameters in this challenge, including weapons, mods used, game build, etc.

You don't get to sit there and tell him his video doesn't count because "You've been running Hydra since rank 15", which your logic is garbage, because:

1) People speedrun Dark Souls, and it's a legitimately hard game. If someone beats the game but doesn't speedrun it, does the completion of that game not count because they didn't do it as fast as someone else?

2) Hydra is an infested mission, it's not exactly hard to fly over every single Infested enemy and never have to use your weapon.

 

As much as I agree with your points about Invis being shoved onto Loki players to have a decent time finishing any difficult mission, you deserve to be brought down a notch for getting in his face like that.

[Troublechutor]

@Winchester117

--- Post #13 ---

 

Paprika, on 22 Jul 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

All the Loki users are gonna pop into this thread just to beat me to a pulp.

 

 

Normally, yes... I'd go at this with hammer and tongs.  However, if they don't fix solo-loki play so that its possible (The basic rule here is, if Loki can't solo a reactor defense, then Loki is out of balance.) then most certainly something needs fixing.

 

 

@kielix7

 

Post #101

First off, I want to say that NOTHING below is meant to detract from what you did.  I said put up or shut up, and you put up.  Respect.

 

----

 

RTFT.

 

Feel free to take sides if you like, its not exactly high drama though.  I said "Show me your pluto game" and I got a hamfisted attempt at Hydra (lol) in the wrong patch... so I critiqued it and put up evidence that anyone can play hydra without invis in 9.3... and everything else for that matter.  Hence, what am I supposed to do here?  If it were 9.2, his video would have ended with a mission failed after using all his revives... I'm pretty sure... I mean I could be wrong, but ... I'm pretty sure that is evidence I wasn't talking out may rear end on this.  Everyone is free to read the thread and see where and when things were said and what the context of it all is.  If you think I'm being a jerk, I'm ok with that... its just your opinion, and everyone is entitled to one.  However, I made my case, DE patched the game back to sanity, so I feel pretty good with where it stands.

 

The challenge was specifically made during 9.2 when the game was out of balance, waiting until its fixed to make a point doesn't actually make the point. 

 

Whatever dude, the 9.3 patch toned down some of the difficulty, so solo is back on the menu anyway.

 

Simple logic. 

Edited July 28, 2013 by Troublechutor

[whitejackale]

Honestly, the only person who should be looking to save face is yourself.

You challenged him to play Loki without using Invisibility, he did it, but now he did it, it doesn't count?

 

You failed to specify ANY parameters in this challenge, including weapons, mods used, game build, etc.

You don't get to sit there and tell him his video doesn't count because "You've been running Hydra since rank 15", which your logic is garbage, because:

1) People speedrun Dark Souls, and it's a legitimately hard game. If someone beats the game but doesn't speedrun it, does the completion of that game not count because they didn't do it as fast as someone else?

2) Hydra is an infested mission, it's not exactly hard to fly over every single Infested enemy and never have to use your weapon.

 

As much as I agree with your points about Invis being shoved onto Loki players to have a decent time finishing any difficult mission, you deserve to be brought down a notch for getting in his face like that.

 

I put forth reasonable arguments and support for my claims, while he/she has put forth nothing but empty rhetoric filled with assumptions and excuses. I almost feel sad for him/her because he/she lacks the critical thinking and reading comprehension skills necessary to understand the premise and conclusion of what I wrote. The premise being that using loki's invisibility is boring and that I do not like to be bored, and the conclusion being that I choose to not use his invisibility because it is boring. If my decisions are based on what I feel will be the most fun, or least boring, then it is reasonable to conclude that I would use loki's invisibility if I absolutely have to.(That is almost never the case if I am fully modded out and using shade+enemy radar)

 

The main problem with his/her reasoning, or lack thereof, is that he/she based everything on the assumption that I was claiming to never use loki's invisibility. Anyone with basic reading comprehension skills can see that I never made such a claim.

 

So, back to the main topic of the thread. Don't you think that loki's invisibility would be a lot more interesting if he had to come out of it for one quarter to three quarters of a second every time that he attacked? It would also be interesting for him to get a slight damage buff in exchange for the temporary visibility.