The Problem With Primed/charged Chamber

[Keetsune]

Not necessarily. Use my numbers.

 

Primed vs Wildfire

Using Vulkar(4 shots)

1122% first shot and 561% for each follow up on Primed

660% per shot with wildfire

2805%(primed) vs 2640%(wildfire)

 

Keep in mind that wildfire will do more against infected, primed will do more against grineer/corpus, while wildfire adds less against corpus.

 

Now that's just one case. It has a place.

Your calculation have a lack of info about other 7 mods that you use. Okay lets do it by myself in case of Lanka:

 

1.       Serration(10) -> 250*2,65 = 662,5

2.       Multishoot(5) -> 662,5*1.9 = 1258,75

3 + 4. Cirt damage(5) + Crit chance(5) -> 1258,75*4,3*0,5 = 2706,3125

5.       Reserved for Speed Trigger which have no effect for Primed Chamber, but must have in lanka.

6.       Electric/Fire(5) -> 2706,3125+2706,3125*0,9 = 5141,99375

7.       AP mod(5) -> 5141,99375 + 2706,3125*0.6 = 6765,78125

 

Ok now lest put Primed Chamber  in last slot:

 

6765,78125*11= 74423,59375 damage from full clip.

 

Ok now lets put Freeze  in last slot:

 

(6765,78125+2706,3125*0,9)*10= 92014,625 damage from full clip.

 

 

Snipertron Vandal:

 

1.       Serration(10) -> 125*2,65 = 331,25

2.       Multishoot(5) ->  331,25*1.9 = 629,375

3 + 4. Cirt damage(5) + Crit chance(5) -> 629,375*4,3*0,5 = 1353,15625

5.       Freeze Mod(5) -> 1353,15625 + 1353,15625*0.9 = 2570,996875

6.       Electric/Fire(5) -> 2570,996875 + 1353,15625*0.9  = 3788,8375

7.       AP mod(5) -> 3788,8375 + 1353,15625*0.6 = 4600,73125  

 

Ok now lest put Primed Chamber in last slot

 

4600,73125*7= 32205,11875 damage from full clip.

 

Ok now lets put Wild Fire in last slot:

 

(4600,73125+1353,15625*0,6)*7 = 37888,375 damage from full clip.

 

Ok now lets put Fire/Electirc in last slot:

 

(4600,73125+1353,15625*0,9)*6 = 34911,43125 damage from full clip.

 

Let's suggest that Primed Chamber work for every shoot:

 

4600,73125*12 = 55208,775 damage from full clip. Nothing overpowered(if take in count rarity of that mod and sniper rifles purpose) compared to Wild Fire variant.

 

Let's suggest that Charged Chamber work for every shoot:

 

4600,73125*8,4 = 38646,1425 damage from full clip. Almost the same as Wild Fire variant. Overpowered? Pfff ...

Edited July 25, 2013 by Keetsune

[Ghobe]

Sigh...I already told you it won't be better for a medium-high clip capacity gun. Way to use 2 of them for examples to try and prove me wrong. Also, btw, way to compare a 100% single shot to a 90% every shot to try and prove me wrong too.

 

The original mods I ran it with

Maxed serration 165%

Maxed Armor Pierce 60%

Maxed Electric 90%

Maxed Hellfire 90%

 

That was it. If you really want to take it to the extreme...

Serration 165%

Pierce 60%

Electric 90%

Fire 90%

Wildfire 60%

Cryo 90%

Splitchamber ~90%

Hrm...I have all the damage mods in...what am I comparing Primed against? I suppose it would be Primed vs.............crit damage? crit rate? fire rate? Bane?

 

Honestly, the argument is kind of moot considering you can have it all >.>

[InsomniacOvrLrd]

 It's more of a novelty for the people who have no interest in min/maxing.

 

You mean the people who know the math, and choose to use ineffective gear regardless? Gotta love that on your team!

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

You mean the people who know the math, and choose to use ineffective gear regardless? Gotta love that on your team!

Yes, damn the people who have fun in different ways than you. Damn them for eternity!

[Keetsune]

Sigh...I already told you it won't be better for a medium-high clip capacity gun. Way to use 2 of them for examples to try and prove me wrong. Also, btw, way to compare a 100% single shot to a 90% every shot to try and prove me wrong too.

 

The original mods I ran it with

Maxed serration 165%

Maxed Armor Pierce 60%

Maxed Electric 90%

Maxed Hellfire 90%

 

That was it. If you really want to take it to the extreme...

Serration 165%

Pierce 60%

Electric 90%

Fire 90%

Wildfire 60%

Cryo 90%

Splitchamber ~90%

Hrm...I have all the damage mods in...what am I comparing Primed against? I suppose it would be Primed vs.............crit damage? crit rate? fire rate? Bane?

 

Honestly, the argument is kind of moot considering you can have it all >.>

First of all: Sniper Rifles have more DPS with crit chance+crit damage mods, so this mods should be always in, unles you like more flat DPS with 30% less DPS total. And even if take in count that:

 

Snipertron Vandal:

 

1.       Serration(10)    ->   125*2,65 = 331,25

2.       Multishoot(5)     ->   331,25*1.9 = 629,375

3.       Faction Mod(5) ->   629,375*1,3 = 818,1875

4        Fire Mod(5)       ->   818,1875 + 818,1875*0.9 = 1554,55625

5.       Electric Mod(5)  ->  1554,55625 + 818,1875*0.9 = 2290,925

6.       Freeze Mod(5)   ->  2290,925 + 818,1875*0.9 = 3027,29375

7.       AP mod(5)         ->  3027,29375 + 818,1875*0.6 = 3518,20625

 

Ok now lest put Primed Chamber in last slot

 

3518,20625*7= 24627,44375 * 1,125(base crit chance + crit damage multiplier) = 27705,87421875 damage from full clip. 16,2% less total damage than with Cirt damage+Crit chance mod's.

 

Ok now lets put Wild Fire in last slot( even without taking in count additional bullet in clip):

 

(3518,20625+818,1875*0,6)*6 = 24054,7125 * 1,125(base crit chance + crit damage multiplier) = 27061,5515625 damage from full clip. 40% less total damage than with Crit damage + Crit chance mod's.

 

Even in that setup Primed Chamber suck balls.

 

 

Second: fk sake stop talking about sh`t like "Medium Full capacity ... blah blah". There is only 4 sniper rifles in game and only one of them is realy usefull and it have clip size of 6.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Keetsune

[Ghobe]

Just because some sniper rifles suck right now, does not mean that a balance change will not come through later. Primed is amazing for weapons with under 4 shot clip capacity.

 

EDIT: Also crit math does not work how you think it works.

 

Damage * Crit Chance * Crit Damage Increase + Damage * Non-Crit Chance = Final Damage Average

Edited July 26, 2013 by Ghobe

[Saenol]

I'd love to see a huge damage, single shot, sniper/anti-materiel rifle, with innate puncture. Maybe a railgun, like what's on the MOA.

 

It also doesn't even make sense; a bolt-action doesn't, repeat, does not need to be reloaded after every single round - you just need to work the bolt to chamber the next round in the weapon.

 

The firearms that needed to be reloaded after every shot went out of style some time ago; they were called muskets.

 

There are plenty of single shot rifles in production today, and some of them (mostly small caliber match rifles) are bolt action, though other actions are more common.

 

So no, not really out of style, and far from limited to muskets.

 

You mean the people who know the math, and choose to use ineffective gear regardless? Gotta love that on your team!

 

Effectiveness is more than just the math you are referring to.

[Keetsune]

Damage * Crit Chance * Crit Damage Increase + Damage * Non-Crit Chance = Final Damage Average

Your formula is wrong, here how it should look like:

 

 

[Damage * Crit Chance * (Crit Damage/100) + Damage * (100-Crit Chance)]/100 = Final Damage Average

 

 

Actual more simple version of this formula is:

 

 

XA = [X * Z * ( Y - 100)] / 10000 + X

 

Where:

 

XA = Average damage

X   = Base damage

Y   = Crit Damage %

Z   = Crit Chance %

Edited July 26, 2013 by Keetsune

[Ghobe]

Your formula is wrong, here how it should look like:

 

 

[Damage * Crit Chance * (Crit Damage/100) + Damage * (100-Crit Chance)]/100 = Final Damage Average

 

 

Actual more simple version of this formula is:

 

 

XA = [X * Z * ( Y - 100)] / 10000 + X

 

Where:

 

XA = Average damage

X   = Base damage

Y   = Crit Damage %

Z   = Crit Chance %

You know with that formula you just listed you said said crits do half damage right? ;p It's not my formula that's wrong there buddy boy. Btw, don't know if you realized it, but you changed the formula within your own post.

 

Using your own numbers...

 

Your first formula

[24627.44375 * 0.2 * (150/100) + 24627.44375 * (100 - 20)] / 100 = 19775.83733

Unless you mean

[24627.44375 * 20 * (150/100) + 24627.44375 * (100 - 20)] / 100 = 27090.18813

 

Your second formula:

224627.44375 * 0.2 * (150 - 100) / 10000 + 24627.44375 = 24652.07119

 

Even your own formulae disagree with each other.

 

HOWEVER, like I said...

Damage * Crit Damage * Crit Chance + Damage * Non Crit Chance = Average Damage

^my formula

24627.44375 * 1.5 * .2 + 24627.44375 * .8 = 27090.18813

 

One of yours might line up with that, and it's a hell of a lot easier to understand with my formula >.> Though that's basically because I'm taking out unnecessary math and using the numbers for what they are and not as whole numbers like you do.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Ghobe

[Keetsune]

with my formula

First of all it's not your formula and you even cant describe it well.

Second: your problem is in lack of important data when you trying to explain somthing. Crit Chance is value from 0 to 100, but not from 0 to 1 ...  you think that everyone should read your mind.

Third: yes i did misscalculation in my last formula when doing avaraged dmg calculation based on crits, cause i took base crit chance of Snipertorn as 25%.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Keetsune

[whitejackale]

0.6 raw damage for every shoot give a lot more DPS than x2 final damage for single shoot, that is it.

 

I think that both of this mods should give bonuses for every shoot. For those who think that this will be OP, IT wont cause sniper rifels have very low DPS. Main objective of sniper rifle is to ONESHOOT things, and those mods is supposed to improve that ability.

No. Sniper rifles are not about high rates of fire with high dps, they are about single high damage shots. That is what the mod gives.

[whitejackale]

First of all it's not your formula and you even cant describe it well.

Second: your problem is in lack of important data when you trying to explain somthing. Crit Chance is value from 0 to 100, but not from 0 to 1 ...  you think that everyone should read your mind.

Third: yes i did misscalculation in my last formula when doing avaraged dmg calculation based on crits, cause i took base crit chance of Snipertorn as 25%.

Crit chance can be though of as a value from 0 to 1 and crit damage should be a value higher than 1(unless critical strikes do less damage for some reason). For example, 50% crit chance=.5, 150% extra crit damage=(base damage)x(1.5)

 

Here is what the crit formula looks like.

 

(X*(1-Y))+(B*(1-Y)(Z))

 

X=Base Damage

Y=Crit Chance

Z=Crit Damage

 

For a weapon with 100 base damage, 50% crit chance, and a 200% crit modifier, this would look like: 

(100*(1-.5))+(100*(1-.5)(2))

(100*.5)+(100*1)

(50+100)

(150)=average damage.

 

To get the dps at this crit rates and crit modifiers, you simply multiply that average damage times rate of fire.

Edited July 26, 2013 by whitejackale

[Keetsune]

Captain obvious on action

Edited July 26, 2013 by Keetsune

[MgnfcntBstrd]

tl;dr

 

I believe what we must all take away from this discussion is the simple fact that the Gram is better.

[Taranis49]

I'd love to see a huge damage, single shot, sniper/anti-materiel rifle, with innate puncture. Maybe a railgun, like what's on the MOA.

 

 

There are plenty of single shot rifles in production today, and some of them (mostly small caliber match rifles) are bolt action, though other actions are more common.

 

So no, not really out of style, and far from limited to muskets.

 

You either didn't read the whole discussion, or evidently don't grasp the difference between chambering a round, and reloading. Visual aid:

 

 

Mosin-Nagant, bolt-action rifle - The bolt's not hard to see. The internal magazine the clip loads into is located in front of the trigger. I could've used something like an M1 Garand, but I chose to use the Mosin as an example since it's over a century old.

 

Assuming it's loaded, firing is just a matter of working the bolt and pulling the trigger which you can do until the magazine's empty, after which you load a new clip. it does not require switching clips to fire each round - that's what I was arguing against.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Taranis49

[MgnfcntBstrd]

You either didn't read the whole discussion, or evidently don't grasp the difference between chambering a round, and reloading. Visual aid:

 

 

Mosin-Nagant, bolt-action rifle - The bolt's not hard to see. The internal magazine the clip loads into is located in front of the trigger. I could've used something like an M1 Garand, but I chose to use the Mosin as an example since it's over a century old.

 

Assuming it's loaded, firing is just a matter of working the bolt and pulling the trigger which you can do until the magazine's empty, after which you load a new clip. it does not require switching clips to fire each round - that's what I was arguing against.

 

I'm afraid I don't understand what an M1 Garand has to do with a discussion about bolt-action rifles.  While it has a bolt, it is not "bolt-action."  The only time you'd have to work the action between rounds is if you were firing blanks at a military funeral, or something similar.

 

I think you must have skimmed what he was talking about.  A single-shot bolt-action rifle doesn't have a magazine, you load a single round, close the bolt, fire, open the bolt and repeat.

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Single+Shot+Bolt-Action+rifle

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-shot

 

A visual aid:

 

[Namacyst]

Event done.. no Primed Chamber as a reward or in any loot table. Charged Chamber still underwhelmingly bad. DE.. time to make a move, this Topic is still not under the Table.

[Saenol]

You either didn't read the whole discussion, or evidently don't grasp the difference between chambering a round, and reloading. Visual aid:

 

 

Mosin-Nagant, bolt-action rifle - The bolt's not hard to see. The internal magazine the clip loads into is located in front of the trigger. I could've used something like an M1 Garand, but I chose to use the Mosin as an example since it's over a century old.

 

Assuming it's loaded, firing is just a matter of working the bolt and pulling the trigger which you can do until the magazine's empty, after which you load a new clip. it does not require switching clips to fire each round - that's what I was arguing against.

 

None of this is new to me nor has anything to do with my post.

 

I'm afraid I don't understand what an M1 Garand has to do with a discussion about bolt-action rifles.  While it has a bolt, it is not "bolt-action."  The only time you'd have to work the action between rounds is if you were firing blanks at a military funeral, or something similar.

 

I think you must have skimmed what he was talking about.  A single-shot bolt-action rifle doesn't have a magazine, you load a single round, close the bolt, fire, open the bolt and repeat.

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Single+Shot+Bolt-Action+rifle

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-shot

 

A visual aid:

 

 

Yes.