Can Universal Vacuum just happen already?

[JuicyPop]

25 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

Well, that may be a bit of a selective name.

I run a lot of melee heavy stuff. I love my Eternal War Valkyr, and my Toxic Lash plague-spreader Saryn, so I'm always melee striking to get their health back. I also run Hirudo a lot so I can do quick melee and get health back (rather than needing to completely swap, and use Life Strike), so my melee damage keeps their health topped up.

Couple that with the fact that their health, armour and shields are based off yours, and scale higher than yours, and they become incredibly hard to take down. I bust out a War Cry for myself and my Kubrow, and we just annihilate everything. My Sahasa and Sunika's finisher attacks are still taking out heavy units long after my melee damage has begun to plummet, which is why I'm arguing so strongly for them

Vacuum from a Sentinel only lasts until you run out of Sentinel revives, which is capped to 1 for people who don't have the Primed Regen mod yet. I want to play an 80 minute survival to farm X resource for whatever reason. I take my Sentinel, it's dead by wave 35. I take my Kubrow or Kavat, it doesn't even go down once. If my Sentinel dies, I have to loot everything "the hard way" anyway, which is not an issue at all, especially if you use melee. 

To be completely honest and sincere, the ONLY reason I've been running Sentinels lately is the amount of Plains of Eidolon content I've been doing. Because of the huge distance scale, Kubrows and Kavats don't really end up using their abilities, and they don't get as much opportunity to attack since they stick by you. Of course, I'm not bringing Sentinels for damage, just Helios for free scans and Carrier if I'm bringing a poor ammo-economy weapon. 

I've taken my sentinel vacuum off for PoE though. Adding Archwing Launchers to the list of things that can be Vacuumed is a nightmare. I run 6-7 Teralysts per night, and we deploy our archwings before the end of the battle to keep things streamlined, but then we all suffer having them pulled from their spots and activated automatically. That, and because sentinel Vacuum is still buggy, occasionally Carrier would siphon up my Archwing Launcher and not actually give it to me until around 30 seconds had passed and the glitch resolved itself. Thanks to the new hotfix, I can't just put down a second Launcher, so I have to actually wait for this to resolve itself, and that could cost us an entire Teralyst run.

People who are Anti-Pet keep bringing up Kubrows and Kavats getting stuck in doors and dying or becoming useless. This is not a reason to give them vacuum, this is a reason to ask DE to fix this bug so that they can work normally again. It's a poor reason to try to bandaid it with non-fixes, and it's an inappropriate bandaid to try to use. If Sentinels were bugging out, it would be equally unreasonable to ask for them to get buffed.

I really am missing what the point of this anecdote is in the context of the discussion. What are you illustrating here that suggests that uni-vac would be ill-advised? 

6 minutes ago, Altre said:

Patronizing, rather than giving a valid argument is the death of reasonable conversation. Insult isn't "sound reason", it's the end of the use of logic.

Give me valid point that would make me change my view. At least I'm agreeing that I can't convince you, but that's perfectly fine. I'll bow out if you can't provide a convincing argument. Neither of us belong in this arena if we can't convince one another.

I'll ask again, what is your argument against this change that relates to the future health of game? I've given fairly detailed summaries on why I believe it to be a positive move – I'm not going to rehash it for the Nth time so just re-read the thread – and I'm still waiting for a counter that doesn't rely on decrying the player. 

You can easily convince me if there is an actual point to be made. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by JuicyPop

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Altre said:

I'm thinking we also need a constant 3x speed boost to all frames. I mean, having to live with the tedium of running through a map just ruins the flow of the game. I also hate getting killed. Ruins the flow of the game. [-snip-]

You're missing one very important fact. Vacuum is already in the game and isn't going anywhere. Vacuum now is an integral part of the looting system. The looting system changed. There is no manual looting system in Warframe anymore. Manual pickups are anachronistic at this point and entirely skippable. Really, lack of UV only affects animal companions. Otherwise it changes nothing for the game. The times when manual pickups were fit to a slower-paced "both-feet-on-the-ground" Warframe are gone. It's an outdated mechanic that doesn't fit the modern build of the game.

 

 

There's your valid point.^

8 minutes ago, Altre said:

Patronizing, rather than giving a valid argument is the death of reasonable conversation. Insult isn't "sound reason", it's the end of the use of logic.

Give me valid point that would make me change my view. At least I'm agreeing that I can't convince you, but that's perfectly fine. I'll bow out if you can't provide a convincing argument. Neither of us belong in this arena if we can't convince one another.

Edited November 11, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[JuicyPop]

7 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You're missing one very important fact. Vacuum is already in the game and isn't going anywhere. Vacuum now is an integral part of the looting system. The looting system changed. There is no manual looting system in Warframe anymore. Manual pickups are anachronistic at this point and entirely skippable. Really, lack of UV only affects companions at this point. Otherwise it changes nothing for the game. The times when manual pickups were fit to a slower-paced "both-feet-on-the-ground" Warframe are gone. It's an outdated mechanic that doesn't fit the modern build of the game.

 

 

There's your valid point.^

And the problem is he simply thinks otherwise – that the game needs to feel like a goddamn chore at all times – so he'll just ignore your post. 

It's just about as succinct as you can put it though. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by JuicyPop

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, JuicyPop said:

And the problem is he simply thinks otherwise so he'll just ignore your post. 

I have faith in people I don't know yet.

[Altre]

I never said I was against universal vacuum. I'm against a larger universal vacuum. It still functions at it used to with the added benefit of being able to access items that land in unfortunately odd places. I do accept that. You saying manual pick ups are out-dated doesn't actually make it out-dated. There is still manual pick-up, it got the fix it needed. You have a vacuum for expanded range in the form of a mod. Use the mod.

The devs have already expressed that they have valid input in the game and I see value in what they've expressed. If you lack the ability to understand that there IS NO VALUE in your need for a larger universal vacuum, then I can't continue the debate. The health of the game is fine. They've done very well for themselves so far and don't need to pander to everyone's whims when players don't understand aspects of what makes a game interesting. JuicyPop, your use of emboldening quote text is not helping emphasize any part of your argument because you haven't done anything more than patronize the argument of others after you ran out of what you consider to be logic. You literally haven't made a conclusive point beyond what you've previously said, which ISN'T ENTIRELY CONCLUSIVE. You have made no wholly sound argument and have ignored my points.

It's ok, guys. You have universal vacuum and a mod that achieves your other utilitarian needs. Use the mod. You're not being ignored, that's why I'm still discussing this.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Altre

[SpinnningSideKick]

17 minutes ago, Altre said:

Patronizing, rather than giving a valid argument is the death of reasonable conversation. Insult isn't "sound reason", it's the end of the use of logic.

Give me valid point that would make me change my view. At least I'm agreeing that I can't convince you, but that's perfectly fine. I'll bow out if you can't provide a convincing argument. Neither of us belong in this arena if we can't convince one another.

Im definitely seeing a lot of the same. Vacuum because vacuum and the faux altruism "for the player base", which it isnt. 

Folks want the double resources and convenience of a vacuum, but just cant come out and say it. It looks greedy and lazy, so they dont say it. A little honesty would go a long way. 

[Altre]

1 minute ago, SpinnningSideKick said:

Im definitely seeing a lot of the same. Vacuum because vacuum and the faux altruism "for the player base", which it isnt. 

Folks want the double resources and convenience of a vacuum, but just cant come out and say it. It looks greedy and lazy, so they dont say it. A little honesty would go a long way. 

I wouldn't call it lazy, just they they are misunderstanding the fact that they literally already have a vacuum and that what is currently in place is a practical, functioning system that plenty enjoy. I just wish they'd acknowledge that looting is a part of the game, ya know? 😔

[SpinnningSideKick]

1 minute ago, Altre said:

I wouldn't call it lazy, just they they are misunderstanding the fact that they literally already have a vacuum and that what is currently in place is a practical, functioning system that plenty enjoy. I just wish they'd acknowledge that looting is a part of the game, ya know? 😔

Yep. Its always been a loot to win game, thats where pretty much everything( a huge percentage of at the very least) comes from.

[JuicyPop]

10 minutes ago, SpinnningSideKick said:

Im definitely seeing a lot of the same. Vacuum because vacuum and the faux altruism "for the player base", which it isnt. 

Folks want the double resources and convenience of a vacuum, but just cant come out and say it. It looks greedy and lazy, so they dont say it. A little honesty would go a long way. 

No, I just want my fluffy animals to stop being afraid of my Hoover. 

[Altre]

5 minutes ago, SpinnningSideKick said:

Yep. Its always been a loot to win game, thats where pretty much everything( a huge percentage of at the very least) comes from.

I've always viewed the game like gardening or fishing. You take your time and appreciate the scenery and details.

My doggos and kittehs aren't afraid of my Hoover, just don't try to put the Hoover in weird places or on their tails. :D

Edited November 11, 2017 by Altre

[JuicyPop]

1 minute ago, Altre said:

I've always viewed the game like gardening or fishing. You take your time and appreciate the scenery and details.

I did that the first time around. 

[SpinnningSideKick]

2 minutes ago, JuicyPop said:

No, I just want my fluffy animals to stop being afraid of my Hoover. 

For what, specific reason though?

Variety? You already have that. There are already choices to make, trade offs to accept. You already accept trade offs in every aspect of your load out. 

[Top_Kekkonen]

4 minutes ago, Altre said:

I've always viewed the game like gardening or fishing. You take your time and appreciate the scenery and details.

Everyone does that at first, but the scenery gets boring after a while.

[JuicyPop]

5 minutes ago, SpinnningSideKick said:

For what, specific reason though?

Variety? You already have that. There are already choices to make, trade offs to accept. You already accept trade offs in every aspect of your load out. 

Because the game is evolving beyond a simple hallway shooter and the looting mechanics that were developed for an era where coptering was an unintentional quirk of the physics engine are ill-equipped for this new reality. 

Vacuum is a band-aid for an issue that should have been addressed with the launch of parkour 2.0. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by JuicyPop

[Top_Kekkonen]

1 minute ago, SpinnningSideKick said:

For what, specific reason though?

Variety? You already have that. There are already choices to make, trade offs to accept. You already accept trade offs in every aspect of your load out. 

Sentinels are better than kavats and kubrows even without vacuum, we are talking about very minor trade offs here.

[SpinnningSideKick]

 

1 minute ago, JuicyPop said:

Because the game is evolving beyond a simply hallway shooter and the looting mechanics that were developed for an era where coptering was an unintentional quirk of the physics engine are ill-equipped to pair alongside it. 

Vacuum is a band-aid for an issue that should have been addressed with the launch of parkour 2.0. 

I submit that parkour 2.0 solved pretty much every looting problem. You can get to everything, quickly and easily. Pushing a button twice to alter your course isnt really effecting your game play. Or are suggesting that you count every key stroke in the name of efficiency?

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 minutes ago, JuicyPop said:

Vacuum is a band-aid for an issue that should have been addressed with the launch of parkour 2.0. 

Actually, it's not just a band-aid. For certain games vacuum is a legit looting mechanic that simply makes looting process more intuitive. I could name two games that I know of: "Nier: Automata" and "Ratchet and Clank". 

 Nier in particular is incredibly similar to Warframe in ways more than one.

[SpinnningSideKick]

2 minutes ago, Top_Kekkonen said:

Sentinels are better than kavats and kubrows even without vacuum, we are talking about very minor trade offs here.

I disagree. I find companions to be objectively better except in some aspects of utility. Its a trade off, plain and simple. More resources and crits versus shield buffs and looting. Heck, two breeds of kubrow even add to looting. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 minutes ago, SpinnningSideKick said:

I submit that parkour 2.0 solved pretty much every looting problem. You can get to everything, quickly and easily. Pushing a button twice to alter your course isnt really effecting your game play. Or are suggesting that you count every key stroke in the name of efficiency?

Except instead of going in the direction of enemies that are shooting at you, you're climbing in some crank to pick up 94 polymers.

[JuicyPop]

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Actually, it's not just a band-aid. For certain games vacuum is a legit looting mechanic that simply makes looting process more intuitive. I could name two games that I know of: "Nier: Automata" and "Ratchet and Clank". 

 Nier in particular is incredibly similar to Warframe in ways more than one.

I didn't mean the mechanic itself, but the mod specifically. DE just has an issue with implementing half-measures. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by JuicyPop

[SpinnningSideKick]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Except instead of going in the direction of enemies that are shooting at you, you're climbing in some crank to pick up 94 polymers.

I dont have a crystal ball, so I cant agree with you there. No way of knowing every single time you will be jumping away from bads, its every bit as likely you would be jumping towards them, as they will drop loot when they die anyway. Your stated destination is towards the newest bad, so it follows that if they drop something, you are already on the way there. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, JuicyPop said:

I didn't mean the mechanic itself, but the mod specifically. DE just has an issue with implementing half-measures. 

Oh, it was probably just an honest attempt to make something unique. Oh, boy, when I think about it. I imagine the guy who came up with vacuum initially (probably Scott) after 3 years thinking "Why the F@ck did I put this sh@t in the game? I thought it would just be another sentinel and nothing more than that. Who would've thought that these guys wouldn't stop using it for so long, no matter what we add to the game to replace it!"

[JuicyPop]

9 minutes ago, SpinnningSideKick said:

 

I submit that parkour 2.0 solved pretty much every looting problem. You can get to everything, quickly and easily. Pushing a button twice to alter your course isnt really effecting your game play. Or are suggesting that you count every key stroke in the name of efficiency?

I'm simply saying that the "cat is already out of the bag" and the vacuum mod is too powerful to be an exclusive feature for one set of companions. I'd go so far to say that I'd prefer to see the mod deleted if there is no conceivable way to get DE to settle on transitioning to uni-vac. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by JuicyPop

[AperoBeltaTwo]

3 minutes ago, SpinnningSideKick said:

I dont have a crystal ball, so I cant agree with you there. No way of knowing every single time you will be jumping away from bads, its every bit as likely you would be jumping towards them, as they will drop loot when they die anyway. Your stated destination is towards the newest bad, so it follows that if they drop something, you are already on the way there. 

Statistically you would be jumping towards the nearest crate away from enemies far more often. Simply because the concentration of crates per m² is greater than the number of enemies. At least until the endless spawning kicks in full gear. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Altre]

17 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You're just fiddling with words at this point. @JuicyPop was right. Here's a transcription of what you actually said per paragraph:

1) I never said I'm against universal vacuum, but I am against universal vacuum, because reasons.

2) I'll ignore your argument, because Devs, and I can't continue the debate, s-so D-Devs. Everything is fine the way it is, because I like it the way it is and the health of the game is fine, because Devs. JuicyPop, is a d@ck and I am rubber you are glue! I'm not listening!

3) It's ok guys. Everything is fine. You're not being ignored, promise. I just can't counter a single point you make, so I won't.

 

That^ was patronizing. If you're not willing to converse, really, nothing could be done. I understand it's really hard to oppose an objective fact so people naturally ignore the facts they can't accept. It's ok. Not everybody is capable of changing their mind based on evidence and logic alone. 

I guess this^ was also patronizing.

Pulling from what I've stated, "I never said I was against universal vacuum. I'm against a larger universal vacuum. It still functions at it used to with the added benefit of being able to access items that land in unfortunately odd places. I do accept that. You saying manual pick ups are out-dated doesn't actually make it out-dated. You have a vacuum. Use the mod."

Juicy was being patronizing and yeah, the slight stutter added to your interpretation of my words is patronizing, rather than understanding. If "Fiddling with words" is how you describe people talking, I'd say that's what we're all doing. Why even make that statement? I'm literally saying that I agree with the devs because I like the system they have. I haven't said that they are the end-all-be-all of reason, just that I agree with their system. Saying that I've ignored your argument because I don't agree with it isn't going to change the fact that I'm literally stating that your argument hasn't brought up any pertinent points against what I've said. Let's stop pointing fingers. Quote my actual argument and make a convincing opposing point or acknowledge that it's simply not pertinent.