Difficulty, Balance Of Power Vs Skill, Powercreep And More

[Ruzu]

I see. Well thanks for opinion from the other side.

 

I think we have different points of views here. Numerical difficulty makes sense with progression rate, but as i said, its shoud not be the only thing in the game and i feel that progression curves of our gear and enemies is not the same. Also there will be (or already is) a problem, when we get better gear, enemies will scale up, so there will be no difference at all. We will be more powerfull, but enemies aswell. At that point, whats the point? Our better stuff will be noticable only if we stuck on some point of enemy level. In my eyes this curve goes up too soon and with much more numbers then it shoud. Trying to embrace something from RPG gerne, or MMORPG, where many developers release content that is way powerfull then previous one, making the old content absolete is not a good way to go and iam afraid. We already can see it with older Warframes, being outperformed by new ones (on another hand old warframes are under rework, kinda). I've been playing World of Warcraft for 4 years, since its release until 2nd expansion, Wrath of the Lich King and this thing killed the game for me and many of people i know.

 

The bosses are already in a rework plan (disclaimer - feedback on dev's to do list), although it would be nice to see something like mini-bosses in the maps (harder then heavy units) that would require teamwork or deeper understanding of game mechanics to beat them. Dark Souls comparison was, not perfect for Warframe, as Warframe does not have open(-ish) world. There we're bosses you could avoid, but you could killed all of them if you we're good enough and getting best gear, was possible only if you we're able to kill them. But the point i wanted to show was, if mods would not go with %. What if they would got with flat increase with dependance on each weapon. For instance serration would give +2 damage to Braton and +5 damage to Snipetron. You could even eliminate levels of enemies entirely if those increases would not go from 200 base damage to 8k crit (Lanka) and increase difficulty by other ways, more enemy types, abilities or create new factions, that would be hard to beat, yet exist only in end-gae instances. But this might be a my personal wish.

 

AI is truely not easy to script and you are right, that when you learn its behavior, it becomes much easier, but that we can say about everything... everything is easier when you understand it. Although some AI types like Fear, Crysis did offer challenging AI types aswell as fun to play against. But what i safely can say (again), is that its way more fun then increasing enemy stats by 50-100% over the system, to use enemies as test dummies for our overgrowing weapons.

 

As we touched on powercreep with warframes, weapons are close to it aswell. I mean, we have many types of weapons (nothing wrong with that), which in many cases do the same thing and we can easily find "the best" weapon (which as a result leads to ignoring those "lesser" ones), oposed to have weapons at ~same awesome level, serving as side-grades to our playstyle and cosmetic customization. I my eyes, we need different stuff. Not another sword, not another pistol, not double barrel shotgun, that has 15 rounds and is pretty much a Latron. Something mechanicaly different. Paris and glaive we're awesome introduction into this unique weapon types and i guess you've got the idea by now. I know that its a lot more work to create such unique weapons, but the playerbase will like it more, then another "samie" weapon.

 

Currently Warframe has only progression treadmill of getting better gear, to kill higher level enemies. And i do not want to see level expansion to rank 40 or 50, with level increase of enemies in system to 100, with T4 and T5 voids with enemies 100-150 and 150-200 or all mods getting +2/+5 more ranks, because it would be dead boring and might lead to rapid quitting of players. It's not a way to go. It's surely easy to do, but it's lazy and not fun. It's a gate with checklist for you gear numbers, that can increase forever. Progression in multiplayer games makes sense as for games longevity. But you shoud not build entire game around it.

 

Yes, you would be more powerful. Enemies as well. The point in a progression based MMO is, what if a new player came along, and with Dark Souls mentality, was able to easily kill a boss, while the veteran had to go farm for hours to get gear capable of allowing him to survive long enough to beat the boss? Where's the fairness in that? If the veteran was a casual, he would quit after seeing that, because future bosses could be even harder than this one, and he just had to spend many hours just to farm gear that still wouldn't even guarantee his survival because there was more skill involved then what he was willing to invest for the amount of fun he received. After all, games are supposed to be fun, not feel like chores. Everyone supposedly plays games as an outlet for stress.

 

The point of powering up in a progression based MMO is so that, even if a highly skilled beginner picked up the game, he would still have to grow his character up to be able to take on the tougher challenges. What this does for casual players is show them that it's perfectly possible to beat the entire game by playing casually. You need all these numerical numbers so that the casual player who only plays for fun is not stopped by some insurmountable skill wall. There needs to be numerical progression to bridge in that gap created by skill. The hardcore would still feel satisfied because they are still able to have that feeling of progression, and still be able to take down a boss more quickly due to their natural skills.

 

-Here- is where the major issue lies. Hardcore end-game content designed for the hardcore will naturally attract casual players who think that this latest addition might give them an extra edge. The problem is when they attempt this hardcore content and complain about it being too hard. They then start claiming that the casuals are being ignored now and that all the bias is being favored towards the hardcore.

 

What would solve this problem is to create hardcore content that does not give any edge in battle, but rather, enhance the game experience even further, without creating a numerical gap.

 

When you create new content however, I feel as though there is this biased path to make the latest content shinier and better to attract everyone to it. As long as the new content is continuously balanced against existing content, there shouldn't be a problem in my opinion.

[eStecko]

Yes, you would be more powerful. Enemies as well. The point in a progression based MMO is, what if a new player came along, and with Dark Souls mentality, was able to easily kill a boss, while the veteran had to go farm for hours to get gear capable of allowing him to survive long enough to beat the boss? Where's the fairness in that? If the veteran was a casual, he would quit after seeing that, because future bosses could be even harder than this one, and he just had to spend many hours just to farm gear that still wouldn't even guarantee his survival because there was more skill involved then what he was willing to invest for the amount of fun he received. After all, games are supposed to be fun, not feel like chores. Everyone supposedly plays games as an outlet for stress.

 

The point of powering up in a progression based MMO is so that, even if a highly skilled beginner picked up the game, he would still have to grow his character up to be able to take on the tougher challenges. What this does for casual players is show them that it's perfectly possible to beat the entire game by playing casually. You need all these numerical numbers so that the casual player who only plays for fun is not stopped by some insurmountable skill wall. There needs to be numerical progression to bridge in that gap created by skill. The hardcore would still feel satisfied because they are still able to have that feeling of progression, and still be able to take down a boss more quickly due to their natural skills.

 

-Here- is where the major issue lies. Hardcore end-game content designed for the hardcore will naturally attract casual players who think that this latest addition might give them an extra edge. The problem is when they attempt this hardcore content and complain about it being too hard. They then start claiming that the casuals are being ignored now and that all the bias is being favored towards the hardcore.

 

What would solve this problem is to create hardcore content that does not give any edge in battle, but rather, enhance the game experience even further, without creating a numerical gap.

 

When you create new content however, I feel as though there is this biased path to make the latest content shinier and better to attract everyone to it. As long as the new content is continuously balanced against existing content, there shouldn't be a problem in my opinion.

 

If put that way, it makes sense.

 

What i wanted to put forward, is that those skilled players shoud have an option inside of game mechanics to overcome the numerical gap. But they cannot due to enemy shields being too high, having no recharge time, grineer's armor that goes beyond heaven and hell at high levels... bulletsponges pretty much.

[Ruzu]

If put that way, it makes sense.

 

What i wanted to put forward, is that those skilled players shoud have an option inside of game mechanics to overcome the numerical gap. But they cannot due to enemy shields being too high, having no recharge time, grineer's armor that goes beyond heaven and hell at high levels... bulletsponges pretty much.

 

I do agree that the degree of bulletsponge in this game needs to be toned down a bit. Or better yet, make it so that higher level mentality doesn't come into the equation as quickly.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Ruzu

[Revel72]

True this all just one thing: Please try to write on nutshell and don't mean the joke way.

[theangelbelow88]

I completely agree, I think this game would greatly benefit from a much more sophisticated AI, and much more reasonable enemy stat increases.

 

The mentality of "lets just increase enemy unit's stats to ridicules proportions, and send 50 of them at the players" makes the game feel plain and its more frustrating then challenging.

 

I started playing this game way back in close beta, and the way I saw the game going, the enemy AI would't be so numerous, as more so tactical, and it seemed like DE believed this as well, there was no random enemies spawning from the dead end rooms you just cleared, there wasn't 50 grineer lancers trying to kill you, there was a few, keep in mind I had a low ranked frame and weapons, so I would take cover, and fire, all wile watching the enemy's movements so I would not get flanked, and it was fun, I didn't have to worry about getting jumped by an army, or from areas that I know I had cleared, or even having to fight an enemy with ridicules stats, tough enemies required attention but not overwhelming firepower to take down, in a simple sum up, the gameplay felt fast paced but tactical, I even praised the game for it.

 

I know a better AI is much harder to do, then just increasing the number of enemies and their stats, but with a more sophisticated AI, the game would be so much more enjoyable and satisfying then it is now.

[theangelbelow88]

I remembered posting up question(s) for a livestream prior to the U8 release. Unlucky me, my question did not get picked.

One of my question was touching about the use of Forma. I foresee balance issues when forma was introduced.

 

For discussion sake, lets put it that there are 2 types of gamers: casuals and hardcores.

Now let me ask you, as a casual gamer, would forma be a high priorty for you? or you just wanna play the game, have fun with your friends?

Now as a hardcore gamer, would forma be a high priority for you? cause you've unlocked all the maps, got all frames, got all weapons and is just bored with the game?

 

Well guess what? hardcore being true to their nature formaed their frames, melee weapons, side arms and primary weapons. not once but multiple times. So whats next for them? somewhere along the way, we heard cries in the forum saying that this game was "too easy" and "we need harder bossese" and "we need more content".

 

Not long after that..Tada! DE introduce U9 with all sort of features and one update that caught my attention: "aggresive AI" mode.

Aggresive? All i see is higher level mobs, that comes in hordes, deals more damage and spawns around you. Aggresive?

Bosses now become a huge bullet Sponge..aggresive you say?

 

Then you have people with mix feedback saying yeah the game is challenging now and we like it ....wait. what about the new gamers and the casuals? Have you seen what they gone through?

Ok. i cant speak for them but i have a friend who came into warframe midway of U8 and then into U9. no forma no cataylts no nothing. all the begineers mods and early weapons. He said 1 word to me about U9: tough.

 

How can U9 be tough when people in the forum are saying cool! Yeah! nice! Challenging! Somewhere wasnt right. where did it all go wrong....somewhere. but where? Perhaps DE did not take into consideration of the game balancing issues when they first introduce FORMA ?And then, to satisfy the cries of "game is too easy" they take the easy way out. buff everything ? and now, as what OP has pointed out, Warframe is heading in that direction? Maybe?

 

Snip:

 

 

Do people still use braton? Cause most of the games that i play, what i see is forma'd orgis, forma arcid, forma hek, forma dread, forma prime weapons, forma frames, everything forma-ed! Uh..That just sounded so wrong..

I agree with everything you said here, I can kinda over look the froma issue, as some weapons are good even without forma(all throwing sidearms), but I do think DE forgot about new players and more casual players, when they implanted new "harder" content. 

[Ruzu]

I agree with everything you said here, I can kinda over look the froma issue, as some weapons are good even without forma(all throwing sidearms), but I do think DE forgot about new players and more casual players, when they implanted new "harder" content. 

 

New players shouldn't be attempting the hardest content right away. They should be working their way up to it, becoming more powerful so by the time they do get to the harder content, it's easier to do.

[theangelbelow88]

New players shouldn't be attempting the hardest content right away. They should be working their way up to it, becoming more powerful so by the time they do get to the harder content, it's easier to do.

Enemies scale pretty quick in this game now, as opposed to a post U8 and U9, that means players will be thrown into tougher content earlier on then they should be, and on top of that it also affects casual gamers, not just new comers.

[Ruzu]

Enemies scale pretty quick in this game now, as opposed to a post U8 and U9, that means players will be thrown into tougher content earlier on then they should be, and on top of that it also affects casual gamers, not just new comers.

 

Not exactly true. Using a freshly built nova along with some unranked, unformaed weapons, I was still capable of soloing mercury. After I leveled up high enough to install some mods on, taking on higher level planets was possible. U9 forces you to play smarter, by increasing enemy levels and agressiveness, but it hasn't made the game overly impossible. If you expect to rush in guns ablazing, you -will- die post U9.

[W4RM4CHIN3]

Nice post.

[Bakercompany86]

Enemies scale pretty quick in this game now, as opposed to a post U8 and U9, that means players will be thrown into tougher content earlier on then they should be, and on top of that it also affects casual gamers, not just new comers.

 

This is true.  The difficulty does ramp up pretty quickly, but two things happen from level 0-20.

 

Solo becomes damn near impossible, while groups of 4 end up blowing through most content.  Really, only the Mobile Defense is a real challenge, and if you stick around past wave 10 as a noob it gets pretty tough.

 

Warframe could use a bit of difficulty scaling, especially one that's dependent on # of players.  Sounds like *most* people (not all) are unhappy with Nightmare mode.  It does look like DE is already creating new game modes and have been creating new content.  This is perhaps a beta bandaid for now.

[Inez]

Two of the videos the OP has in his post refer spefically to PvP games and in no way apply to Warframe, a PvE game. I didn't bother watching the other two because the OP seems to be unclear on what type of game Warframe is.

To be very clear, Warframe is a PvE coop game. Linking a video about balancing PvP games or power creep in PvP games isn't exactly relevant.

[Bakercompany86]

Two of the videos the OP has in his post refer spefically to PvP games and in no way apply to Warframe, a PvE game. I didn't bother watching the other two because the OP seems to be unclear on what type of game Warframe is.

To be very clear, Warframe is a PvE coop game. Linking a video about balancing PvP games or power creep in PvP games isn't exactly relevant.

 

WoW is only partially a PVP game, and overwhelmingly PvE.

 

The reference remains the same however.  In both games, your "end game" and progression towards such is simply becoming more powerful.  Not more robust equipment coupled with better skill.  Just more raw damage output.

 

So basically, DE can change that and change the way the endgame is currently.

 

Or, they can continue forward as is where their only option is to keep increasing stats...which bores everyone.

[11.11.11]

Good thread...pity it's not getting a lot of attention. 

[11.11.11]

Two of the videos the OP has in his post refer spefically to PvP games and in no way apply to Warframe, a PvE game. I didn't bother watching the other two because the OP seems to be unclear on what type of game Warframe is.

 

Not even going to bring up that there is explicit mention of Warframe in this vid: 

 

 

Difficult Does Not Mean Punishing

 

 

 

 

Check for yourself. Go on. Right there around 5:43

[theangelbelow88]

Not exactly true. Using a freshly built nova along with some unranked, unformaed weapons, I was still capable of soloing mercury. After I leveled up high enough to install some mods on, taking on higher level planets was possible. U9 forces you to play smarter, by increasing enemy levels and agressiveness, but it hasn't made the game overly impossible. If you expect to rush in guns ablazing, you -will- die post U9.

I never said the game was impossible, I'm saying its harder for new players to make good progress, even more so when your new and don't know much about the game, I can probably reset my account and make way better progress then any new player could, why? Because I have knowledge of mods, weapons, enemies, resources etc., so I can adapt to the game's level scaling much quicker, and as for casual gamers, they don't have/cant invest the time into the game to get "superior" mods and equipment, so why is DE going to leave both of theses groups out in the cold.

 

Also side note, I don't think the AI's "aggressiveness" has been increased, they're just at higher level and are more numerous.

Edited August 1, 2013 by theangelbelow88

[Loswaith]

Not exactly true. Using a freshly built nova along with some unranked, unformaed weapons, I was still capable of soloing mercury. After I leveled up high enough to install some mods on, taking on higher level planets was possible. U9 forces you to play smarter, by increasing enemy levels and agressiveness, but it hasn't made the game overly impossible. If you expect to rush in guns ablazing, you -will- die post U9.

 

Part of the issue here is you likely have the mods to equip when you rank up.  What if the new player doesnt?

A new player hitting venus can only rely on mods that they got from mercury.  That said I'd figure aside form maybe Vor (or defence missions) the first time around a new player can likely make it to earth.  After that they may have issues because of the mods and resources they wont have gotten to proceed futher (and earth having allot of defence missions), relying at that point solely on their own innate skill to get better gear.

 

Power Creep isn't quite as black and white either, you can have progression within a game and still not have power creep if a consistent difficulity curve is kept.  Meaning that skill can actually allow you to go further with the same gear, but only to a point.  Likewise a less skilled player may need more gear to progress.  It's about setting a baseline of inherant power (ie. gear and/or levels) and skill being able to break that mold.  Provided the baseline of gear enables you to take content with an average level of skill, then its fine.  If the gear or enemies are hugely better than the bace difficulity, there in lies the power creep.

 

For example a certain level of skill can be assumed by anyone hitting earth.  They have played the game, are likely familur with most of the styles and functions within the game.  However they wont have the expected learned skill at this point to hit and do well in pluto.  However someone with very good innate game skill could do say Europa with the same learned skill level as an average player does earth (the average player would need better gear to do europa).  Neither may be able to do pluto without better gear however.

 

All in all its hard to balance because you have to take in some major factors.  Inherant gear/ level strength, player learned skill (what the player has learnt from playing the game) and innate player skill (the individuals tactical ability and hand-eye coordination).

Edited August 1, 2013 by Loswaith

[eStecko]

I think my posts after the original got little bit subjective in a way of "i wish game was like...". Although i've got some points there and will add few more things into original topic later today, in more of a constructive manner.

 

Nice post.

 

Thanks.

 

Good thread...pity it's not getting a lot of attention. 

 

It does now. Actualy i had to bump it twice, but glad to see some healthy discussions going on here.

 

Two of the videos the OP has in his post refer spefically to PvP games and in no way apply to Warframe, a PvE game. I didn't bother watching the other two because the OP seems to be unclear on what type of game Warframe is.

To be very clear, Warframe is a PvE coop game. Linking a video about balancing PvP games or power creep in PvP games isn't exactly relevant.

 

World of Warcraft is largely PvE game, which pretty much already fallen to powercreep and it's PvP/Arena side does not attract many people, neither is mentioned. Older Street Fighter had PvE as its main component, with dueling on the side, have not played the new ones tho. Dark Souls is PvE game aswell... League of Legends, in matter of kills, player will kill ~200-300 AI controlled enemies per game, yet its still PvP game, but that does mean, that we cannot switch the context of that example into PvE content as "giving AI an ability... how much fun is it for us being used on?". Only because its not speaking only about Warframe, does not mean that other games have or had problems Warframe has or might have and reflect upon it.

[litlit]

[snip]

Powercreep:

Sadly, I have to slightly disagree with powercreep being a bad thing. I realize that the video says a little powercreep is good, but to be brutally honest, powercreep if done right, in tiny(or -maybe- larger amounts), works.

Regarding your example of Dark Souls, honestly, the way you're describing how the game works, I wouldn't want to touch it. Main issue being, if all you need is the starting gear and a lot of skill to beat any boss, any casuals you hoped would pick up the game will get scared away. The -reason- why more and more powerful gear is -essential- is because as you're progressing through a game, the bosses should get harder, and the gear should power-up in some way to stay on par with the increase in boss difficulty, to not only reflect how much you've grown, but also to show just how far you've progressed on your journey. The you in the beginning was a weak fragile little scrap of metal. Now he's a mature, sophisticated adult who has more experience in the world. He can take on tougher threats, and the things that used to beat him up silly? Their not an issue anymore, which should reflect properly.

If I can beat the last boss of a game without having to get stronger, or acquire new more powerful/useful abilities and gear, then what was the point of spending x hours of grinding through the game to get better gear if I don't have to use it? What was the point of all the hard work it took me to get that gear in the first place? I'd rather watch a movie-version of the game because I don't have to do anything, I can just enjoy the ride from the protagonist's view, watch his struggles and how he over comes them, because at least he's gaining something new throughout the journey. Or better yet, just write out a story and I'll read that.

The main issue in scaling is that developers are placing more emphasis on power rather than ability and skill, which gives 'powercreep', as the video defines it, a bad name. The cause of this emphasis is as the video states, time. Unfortunately, time is money.

Gear should enhance you, but it can only do that by powering you up in some way. You should be required to grow up before you take on the final boss encounter, because what's the point of having such a grand boss if some shrimp was capable of taking it down? If that shrimp was capable of taking such a powerful boss down, that means it was hiding its true power. When it unleashes it real power, you need gear of equivalent strength and durability to take it on.

 

[snip]

 

I agree, and from my interpretation of the Extra Credits video, I think they agree with all of this too.

 

In Dark Souls, a player can beat all the bosses on NG++ with 0 deaths and only basic starting gear. However, doing so is both incredibly difficult and completely unnecessary -- the process is much simpler if the player chooses to use the tools (the items and equipment) that the developers grant to them. This is why Dark Souls is so frequently used as the shining example of a nearly-perfect implementation of high difficulty: player skill is always rewarded at all levels of the game without exception, while still offering other tools that, while not purely relying on player skill, facilitate a player's chosen playstyle (i.e. there is equipment that offers better stats than starting gear and also facilitates a certain playstyle, such as light armor or heavy weapons).

 

Okay, that's Dark Souls, but this is Warframe, a completely different kind of game. My point here is not to say that DE should incorporate elements of Dark Souls into Warframe -- like I just said, they're completely different games. What I'm interested in is examining exactly how power creep works in a game; how it can be helpful and how it can be harmful.

 

When I first started Warframe, running around on Mercury, I was very engaged in mastering the basic combat mechanics. I played with 3 of my friends, all of us new to the game. One of us learned that you could sprint and slide even after starting a charge attack with the Skana, so we spent pretty much all of Mercury mastering the tactic of using sprint+slide as a gap closer to use melee charge attacks as a group. That was fun, engaging, and rewarding -- it made me feel pretty awesome to be part of a team of space ninjas that took out dudes in huge armor with precision sword attacks. Even today, if I'm playing in an area low-level enough for melee to be feasible, you can see me running amok with my Fragor, killing Heavy Gunners with a charge attack + slide timed perfectly so my hit lands before they can even try to use their AoE knockdown ability -- that is a good feeling, because it's something that shows I've mastered the melee charge attack mechanic and the effort it took me to practice enough to be able to do it is rewarded.

 

Now, after I have a bunch of maxed out equipment, I breeze through low-level content that used to be very difficult with ease. In a sense, I like it: it took a lot of time and effort to make my Supra, so I like how powerful it feels when I go to Mars and I can clear a whole room with a single clip. The problem is that mastery of the game's core mechanics is something that simply doesn't matter for higher level content.

 

Everyone should have noticed the red flag 2 paragraphs up: "if I'm playing in an area low-level enough for melee to be feasible". To do the content that I want to do right now -- parts and materials for the weapons I want -- I have to fight high-level enemies. And as players have been saying over and over for the past 8 months now, that means doing one of two things: 1) standing inside a Vauban's Bastille shooting ancients with an armor-ignoring gun while someone presses 4 to clear the small infested, or 2) standing inside a Frost's Snowglobe shooting Heavies and Techs with an armor-ignoring gun while someone presses 4 to clear the smaller Grinner or Corpus.

 

There is no skill mastery at high level play. You build your weapons into unstoppable bullet hoses of death and you stand still and shoot while someone presses 3 and someone else presses 4. There is no, "hey I'm really good at melee so I'm going to make use of that and go melee some level 130 Grineer" -- no, if you go melee high level Grineer, you're going to get cut to shreds, go down, and bleed out while your team calls you an idiot for leaving the Snowglobe. The same principle applies to guns: you don't take the Vasto to high-level areas because it's fun and you like fast revolvers; you take Acrid or some armor-ignoring weapon because the Vasto does 7 damage on a headshot crit.

 

High level content is about numbers. Just numbers. There is no depth of play, and there isn't any difficulty that doesn't feel forced and artificial -- high level defense is hard because if your Frost gets distracted and the Snowglobe goes down for 5 seconds, a Tech downs half your squad and a Corpus Crewman kills the cryopod in one burst. Nightmare mode isn't hard because it requires you to utilize and maybe even improve your mastery of game mechanics, it's hard because your very ability to make use of the game's mechanics is limited when you have no energy, no minimap, no shields, and when you jump you go flying and immediately get stuck in the geometry above a door. There is no reward for mastery of mechanics, there is no depth of gameplay that allows players to approach problems in different ways.

Edited August 1, 2013 by litlir

[11.11.11]

There is no skill mastery at high level play. You build your weapons into unstoppable bullet hoses of death and you stand still and shoot while someone presses 3 and someone else presses 4. There is no, "hey I'm really good at melee so I'm going to make use of that and go melee some level 130 Grineer" -- no, if you go melee high level Grineer, you're going to get cut to shreds, go down, and bleed out while your team calls you an idiot for leaving the Snowglobe. The same principle applies to guns: you don't take the Vasto to high-level areas because it's fun and you like fast revolvers; you take Acrid or some armor-ignoring weapon because the Vasto does 7 damage on a headshot crit.

 

And no-where else is this more perfectly illustrated than in dueling:

 

If you seriously intend to win, you don't take the Latron you've practiced with so hard, it's practically an extension of your body. You take your Vauban, and your flux rifle because their damage simply outranks whatever your opponent might try and field. 

 

Honestly, I love it when someone I've never met before makes a post, that somehow manages to encapsulate exactly how I feel about something. For a long time I had sunk over 250 hours into the game, and had only reached mastery rank 5. Why? Because I found one or two weapons and frames that I really liked, and preferred to play with only those. If a level 59 mission was chewing up my maxed Burston and Ember - and spitting them back out. I figured it was up to me to, up my game. In a lot of cases I did, and I was successful. But increasingly I found I simply couldn't beat my opponents. Lech Kril's shields regenerated too fast, or T2 Void runs would leave me battered and bruised without teammates with better gear. 

 

Eventually I bit the bullet, crafted a bunch of weapons and frames I didn't really like - and power leveled them all just for the sake of getting a higher mastery level, so I could access the Flux rifle. The one higher tier weapon in the game I was interested in. Along the way I found a dread, but that's a story for another time.

 

My point is, a lot of the games current difficulty is, as Litler puts it - not based around player skill or emergent game-play. Its simply about getting weapons that allow you to spit out enough damage per second, to take on incredibly beefed up enemies. And that, is a serious shame in my eyes. 

Edited August 2, 2013 by 11.11.11

[zezzame]

I posted this on another thread but it has relevance here

Some ideas on how things can be made better:

 

at lvl 30+ shield lancers have larger shields that cover their entire body (take off 100 - 300 HP)

at lvl 40+ make them larger and have even larger shields that friendlies can take cover behind (another 100 - 300 HP not need to be added)

also add the ability to wallrun over the shield so you can get to the guys behind the shield but at the cost of exposing your self to what ever may be on the other side

with this you can make it so the shield lancer will never break aggro with a particular player (unless given reason to change), thus making players think of ways to get around him not just shooting over him or walking around.

 

I feel the scorpion should be introduced at around lvl 20+ and only taze you not pull you

30+ have her pull you and be more agile but weaker (she should want to run away from you if she was smart)

Give her things like invisibility at lvl 50+ so she is harder but still easy to kill provided you can find her

 

heavy gunner should (and in a way does) suppress you, but don't make her a bullet sponge give her a shield on her gun at lvl 30+

At lvl 50+ give her a lot of frontal armor but you can stagger her with a slide slash to the legs and shoot her now exposed and opened up back (by leaning forward all the joints of the armor in her back open up)

 

All these things would reduce the need for health and would then encourage tactics

(I haven,t even covered corpus or infested or the other classes the the greneer has)

[eStecko]

I agree, and from my interpretation of the Extra Credits video, I think they agree with all of this too.

 

In Dark Souls, a player can beat all the bosses on NG++ with 0 deaths and only basic starting gear. However, doing so is both incredibly difficult and completely unnecessary -- the process is much simpler if the player chooses to use the tools (the items and equipment) that the developers grant to them. This is why Dark Souls is so frequently used as the shining example of a nearly-perfect implementation of high difficulty: player skill is always rewarded at all levels of the game without exception, while still offering other tools that, while not purely relying on player skill, facilitate a player's chosen playstyle (i.e. there is equipment that offers better stats than starting gear and also facilitates a certain playstyle, such as light armor or heavy weapons).

 

Okay, that's Dark Souls, but this is Warframe, a completely different kind of game. My point here is not to say that DE should incorporate elements of Dark Souls into Warframe -- like I just said, they're completely different games. What I'm interested in is examining exactly how power creep works in a game; how it can be helpful and how it can be harmful.

 

When I first started Warframe, running around on Mercury, I was very engaged in mastering the basic combat mechanics. I played with 3 of my friends, all of us new to the game. One of us learned that you could sprint and slide even after starting a charge attack with the Skana, so we spent pretty much all of Mercury mastering the tactic of using sprint+slide as a gap closer to use melee charge attacks as a group. That was fun, engaging, and rewarding -- it made me feel pretty awesome to be part of a team of space ninjas that took out dudes in huge armor with precision sword attacks. Even today, if I'm playing in an area low-level enough for melee to be feasible, you can see me running amok with my Fragor, killing Heavy Gunners with a charge attack + slide timed perfectly so my hit lands before they can even try to use their AoE knockdown ability -- that is a good feeling, because it's something that shows I've mastered the melee charge attack mechanic and the effort it took me to practice enough to be able to do it is rewarded.

 

Now, after I have a bunch of maxed out equipment, I breeze through low-level content that used to be very difficult with ease. In a sense, I like it: it took a lot of time and effort to make my Supra, so I like how powerful it feels when I go to Mars and I can clear a whole room with a single clip. The problem is that mastery of the game's core mechanics is something that simply doesn't matter for higher level content.

 

Everyone should have noticed the red flag 2 paragraphs up: "if I'm playing in an area low-level enough for melee to be feasible". To do the content that I want to do right now -- parts and materials for the weapons I want -- I have to fight high-level enemies. And as players have been saying over and over for the past 8 months now, that means doing one of two things: 1) standing inside a Vauban's Bastille shooting ancients with an armor-ignoring gun while someone presses 4 to clear the small infested, or 2) standing inside a Frost's Snowglobe shooting Heavies and Techs with an armor-ignoring gun while someone presses 4 to clear the smaller Grinner or Corpus.

 

There is no skill mastery at high level play. You build your weapons into unstoppable bullet hoses of death and you stand still and shoot while someone presses 3 and someone else presses 4. There is no, "hey I'm really good at melee so I'm going to make use of that and go melee some level 130 Grineer" -- no, if you go melee high level Grineer, you're going to get cut to shreds, go down, and bleed out while your team calls you an idiot for leaving the Snowglobe. The same principle applies to guns: you don't take the Vasto to high-level areas because it's fun and you like fast revolvers; you take Acrid or some armor-ignoring weapon because the Vasto does 7 damage on a headshot crit.

 

High level content is about numbers. Just numbers. There is no depth of play, and there isn't any difficulty that doesn't feel forced and artificial -- high level defense is hard because if your Frost gets distracted and the Snowglobe goes down for 5 seconds, a Tech downs half your squad and a Corpus Crewman kills the cryopod in one burst. Nightmare mode isn't hard because it requires you to utilize and maybe even improve your mastery of game mechanics, it's hard because your very ability to make use of the game's mechanics is limited when you have no energy, no minimap, no shields, and when you jump you go flying and immediately get stuck in the geometry above a door. There is no reward for mastery of mechanics, there is no depth of gameplay that allows players to approach problems in different ways.

 

 

And no-where else is this more perfectly illustrated than in dueling:

 

If you seriously intend to win, you don't take the Latron you've practiced with so hard, it's practically an extension of your body. You take your Vauban, and your flux rifle because their damage simply outranks whatever your opponent might try and field. 

 

Honestly, I love it when someone I've never met before makes a post, that somehow manages to encapsulate exactly how I feel about something. For a long time I had sunk over 250 hours into the game, and had only reached mastery rank 5. Why? Because I found one or two weapons and frames that I really liked, and preferred to play with only those. If a levl 59 mission was chewing up my maxed Burston and Ember - and spitting them back out. I figured it was up to me to up my game. In a lot of cases I did, and I was successful. But increasingly I found I simply couldn't beat my oponents. Lech Kril's shields regenerated too fast, or T2 Void runs would leave me battered and bruised without teammates with better gear. 

 

Eventually I bit the bullet, crafted a bunch of weapons and frames I didn't really like - and power leveled the all just for the sake of getting a higher mastery level, so I could access the Flux rifle. The one higher tier weapon in the game I was interested in. Along the way I found a dread, but that's a story for another time.

 

My point is, a lot of the games current difficulty is, as Litler puts it - not based around player skill or emergent game-play. Its simply about getting weapons that allow you to spit out enough damage per second, to take on incredibly beefed up enemies. And that, is a serious shame in my eyes.

 

I have added both of your replies (links, unless you would allow me to post your entire post there in quotes) into the main topic, as i think they are well written and in a very constructive manner... guess i dont have to extend the original post myself, when this is already said. :)

[Bakercompany86]

 

Not even going to bring up that there is explicit mention of Warframe in this vid: 

 

 

 

 

Check for yourself. Go on. Right there around 5:43

 

 

This video and the Power Creep video greatly apply to this game.  Hopefully enough great ideas will flow from this community to DE that we end up with a great, dynamic product.  Something that can be molded by each player to create a fun experience.

 

Eliminating power creep and artificial difficulty is definitely the first, and probably biggest step.  As one of the last posters mentioned, this game is currently about building a better bullet hose.  Not only does that put us in the power creep situation, but there is a cap to that eventually and the game will run dry.  At some point people get tired of just upgrading to progress through the same types of stuff.

 

Unfortunately I think fixing the power creep would require a massive overhaul of the game, from enemies to mods to weapons.  Everything would have to be changed.

[JamesSergon]

Let's bump a bit that thread.  So many threads aren't constructive.  This one is.  It merits enhanced visibility and acknowledgement.

Edited August 2, 2013 by JamesSergon

[11.11.11]

Bumps away!