Difficulty, Balance Of Power Vs Skill, Powercreep And More

[eStecko]

Glad you like it. Jumping on the the band wagon with shameless bump. :)

[Bakercompany86]

eStecko this is probably one of the best threads about this topic I've seen to date.  I'd like to keep it alive and as a positive discussion.

 

Devs read the forums, that much I know.  If we get some solid ideas on here, they'll run with it and create us an amazing experience.

[eStecko]

eStecko this is probably one of the best threads about this topic I've seen to date.  I'd like to keep it alive and as a positive discussion.

 

Devs read the forums, that much I know.  If we get some solid ideas on here, they'll run with it and create us an amazing experience.

 

Thanks, i appreciate that.

 

It's also very hard to write something like this, because you can very easily go into your opinion, which most likely is not objective. I actualy have few parts in the main topic where, i wish some things we're like this and that, but would not fit the game ideas. It is so easy to get distracted by that.

 

Also i edited the main topic. Nothing really removed, but i fixed many typos and added a lot of stuff, where i felt, it would need more explanations or stuff that got updated in latest patch (Nightmare Mode).

 

Btw nobody noticed and have not corrected me, that i called Grineer Scorpion as Grineer Stinger? :D

Edited August 2, 2013 by eStecko

[Mietz]

There is no skill mastery at high level play. You build your weapons into unstoppable bullet hoses of death and you stand still and shoot while someone presses 3 and someone else presses 4. There is no, "hey I'm really good at melee so I'm going to make use of that and go melee some level 130 Grineer" -- no, if you go melee high level Grineer, you're going to get cut to shreds, go down, and bleed out while your team calls you an idiot for leaving the Snowglobe. The same principle applies to guns: you don't take the Vasto to high-level areas because it's fun and you like fast revolvers; you take Acrid or some armor-ignoring weapon because the Vasto does 7 damage on a headshot crit.

 

I did a post in the past that could slightly alleviate the problem by pooling mod points here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/38027-warframes-mods-powers-and-weaponry/#entry357920

 

Of course this doesn't fix challenge but it would allow for a larger flexibility and freedom of choice of what weapons/frames to play.

[Ruzu]

I never said the game was impossible, I'm saying its harder for new players to make good progress, even more so when your new and don't know much about the game, I can probably reset my account and make way better progress then any new player could, why? Because I have knowledge of mods, weapons, enemies, resources etc., so I can adapt to the game's level scaling much quicker, and as for casual gamers, they don't have/cant invest the time into the game to get "superior" mods and equipment, so why is DE going to leave both of theses groups out in the cold.

 

Also side note, I don't think the AI's "aggressiveness" has been increased, they're just at higher level and are more numerous.

 

Personally for me, I'm in-between a casual gamer and a hardcore gamer. Irregardless of how hard a game seems to be when I initially pick it up, I tell myself that this is the normal pace of the game. I attempt to adapt to it, because I don't expect the developers to make it easier -just- for me because I'm having a hard time beating a certain level or stage, but I can understand how a person who just wants to have fun might get frustrated a little ways into progression.

 

No, the AI was increased in level, health, quantity, and aggressiveness. Trust me, before, ancients wouldn't aggro on you until you were within a certain distance or started shooting them. Now, they do all that, in addition to attacking you the moment you're in any infested cross-hairs.

 

And no-where else is this more perfectly illustrated than in dueling:

 

If you seriously intend to win, you don't take the Latron you've practiced with so hard, it's practically an extension of your body. You take your Vauban, and your flux rifle because their damage simply outranks whatever your opponent might try and field. 

 

Honestly, I love it when someone I've never met before makes a post, that somehow manages to encapsulate exactly how I feel about something. For a long time I had sunk over 250 hours into the game, and had only reached mastery rank 5. Why? Because I found one or two weapons and frames that I really liked, and preferred to play with only those. If a level 59 mission was chewing up my maxed Burston and Ember - and spitting them back out. I figured it was up to me to, up my game. In a lot of cases I did, and I was successful. But increasingly I found I simply couldn't beat my opponents. Lech Kril's shields regenerated too fast, or T2 Void runs would leave me battered and bruised without teammates with better gear. 

 

Eventually I bit the bullet, crafted a bunch of weapons and frames I didn't really like - and power leveled them all just for the sake of getting a higher mastery level, so I could access the Flux rifle. The one higher tier weapon in the game I was interested in. Along the way I found a dread, but that's a story for another time.

 

My point is, a lot of the games current difficulty is, as Litler puts it - not based around player skill or emergent game-play. Its simply about getting weapons that allow you to spit out enough damage per second, to take on incredibly beefed up enemies. And that, is a serious shame in my eyes. 

 

 

You've got the wrong mentality. The mastery system is there to encourage you to try out every weapon to its fullest and not be biased in any way. Can you imagine how many people have only ever used a certain Assault Rifle, and then claim that that particular Assault Rifle is the -best- weapon in the game when they havn't tried anything else? In warframe, you are encouraged to try out every weapon, to see which one fits you best. If you don't like a certain weapon, max it out to 30, then leave it in your storage locker. No one's forcing you to use it for the rest of your warframe career.

 

I posted this on another thread but it has relevance here

Some ideas on how things can be made better:

 

at lvl 30+ shield lancers have larger shields that cover their entire body (take off 100 - 300 HP)

at lvl 40+ make them larger and have even larger shields that friendlies can take cover behind (another 100 - 300 HP not need to be added)

also add the ability to wallrun over the shield so you can get to the guys behind the shield but at the cost of exposing your self to what ever may be on the other side

with this you can make it so the shield lancer will never break aggro with a particular player (unless given reason to change), thus making players think of ways to get around him not just shooting over him or walking around.

 

I feel the scorpion should be introduced at around lvl 20+ and only taze you not pull you

30+ have her pull you and be more agile but weaker (she should want to run away from you if she was smart)

Give her things like invisibility at lvl 50+ so she is harder but still easy to kill provided you can find her

 

heavy gunner should (and in a way does) suppress you, but don't make her a bullet sponge give her a shield on her gun at lvl 30+

At lvl 50+ give her a lot of frontal armor but you can stagger her with a slide slash to the legs and shoot her now exposed and opened up back (by leaning forward all the joints of the armor in her back open up)

 

All these things would reduce the need for health and would then encourage tactics

(I haven,t even covered corpus or infested or the other classes the the greneer has)

 

 

The heavies, the commandos, the rollers, and the scorpion are all perfect in concept and utility. The issue is in how much damage the enemy can deliver. You get hurt for so much damage that you think these utility enemies are too OP in some way, when they really aren't.

 

@litlir

 

There is skill mastery at high levels. The problem is that warframe wasn't designed for PvP, therefore you have all these outrageous abilities whose intent is too annihilate the enemy. To make up for that, enemies are stronger, more ruthless, more unforgiving. Trying to do any kind of skillful action is like saying, "Look, I'm free. You can hit me all you want!" If warframe was designed for PvP instead of PvE, yes, there would be high level skill mastery in that instance.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Ruzu

[ArtanKatana]

There are some damned good ideas here. +1 from me

[11.11.11]

You've got the wrong mentality. The mastery system is there to encourage you to try out every weapon to its fullest and not be biased in any way. Can you imagine how many people have only ever used a certain Assault Rifle, and then claim that that particular Assault Rifle is the -best- weapon in the game when they havn't tried anything else? In warframe, you are encouraged to try out every weapon, to see which one fits you best. If you don't like a certain weapon, max it out to 30, then leave it in your storage locker. No one's forcing you to use it for the rest of your warframe career.

 

I've heard this argument before. Honestly, I appreciate where you're coming from - bigotry from largely inexperienced players has long been an issue in gaming communities, and I respect what DE is trying to do, to force people to try all the content, so that they have an informed perspective to commentate from.

 

But the fact of the matter is, the game makes me buy (with credits, or if I don't have the time to spare, platinum) - gear, and go through the effort of leveling it up, in order to acheive the rank nessacary to unlock higher tier gear. Arguably necessary to access the end game content.

 

The problem I have, is with being forced to do this. Did I ever intend to call people out for using a Bronco without trying it out for myself before hand? No. But DE isn't willing to have that faith in my integrity, and instead drops a wall in front of my progression through the content.

 

Lets not even start with more casual players who may not have the time to acrew the credits and materials to build a large amount of the gear in the game, necessary to gain a high mastery. Or who don't have access to the platinum to buy them directly. Time spent in-game should be rewarded. Currently, time spent is only rewarded if you spend it in a certain way, which just isn't fun for some people, no matter how much you make the case that it's trying to encourage them to be more varied, seasoned players.

Edited August 3, 2013 by 11.11.11

[Ruzu]

I've heard this argument before. Honestly, I appreciate where you're coming from - bigotry from largely inexperienced players has long been an issue in gaming communities, and I respect what DE is trying to do, to force people to try all the content, so that they have an informed perspective to commentate from.

 

But the fact of the matter is, the game makes me buy (with credits, or if I don't have the time to spare, platinum) - gear, and go through the effort of leveling it up, in order to acheive the rank nessacary to unlock higher tier gear. Arguably necessary to access the end game content.

 

The problem I have, is with being forced to do this. Did I ever intend to call people out for using a Bronco without trying it out for myself before hand? No. But DE isn't willing to have that faith in my integrity, and instead drops a wall in front of my progression through the content.

 

Lets not even start with more casual players who may not have the time to acrew the credits and materials to build a large amount of the gear in the game, necessary to gain a high mastery. Or who don't have access to the platinum to buy them directly. Time spent in-game should be rewarded. Currently, time spent is only rewarded if you spend it in a certain way, which just isn't fun for some people, no matter how much you make the case that it's trying to encourage them to be more varied, seasoned players.

 

I appreciate where you're coming from. Yeah, I agree not everyone has the time to earn all these mats, credits, and mastery exp, but honestly, I think the system DE is utilizing to give everyone a fresh perspective on all the gear in this game is an effective one. Look at it this way, if everything was easily obtainable right from the start, 90% of all players would immediately rush towards the gear with the highest stats, because logic dictates that stuff with the highest stats is naturally the strongest. How on earth would anyone know that this particular pistol, while being 30% weaker then the #1 pistol in terms of damage, has extra side benefits that actually makes it 75% stronger in indirect ways. The average player would be oblivious and ignorant to any meta-data in the system, they'd just concentrate purely on numbers. 

 

What DE has done, by cleverly forcing people to rank up the guns to get mastery exp to unlock higher ranks to unlock more, better guns, are forcing every player in the game to try out every weapon to see just how powerful it actually is in combat. Some weapons that I have are weaker stat-wise then their peers, but deliver far more dps that I would never had seen that had I not been forced to use both weapons. To make everyone gain this non-biased view, DE realized something had to be sacrificed, and to a certain degree, I agree with their realization, but to another degree, I realize it makes it longer for people to earn the better stuff.

 

You run stages, complete then, unlock more stages/planets, gather material in the process, use materials to build more weapons. You earn materials no matter what you do, just as long as you remember to pick up those yellow containers. You get credits that you picked up in game, in addition to an end of missions credit bonus. I'm not sure I understand this particular argument of yours.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Ruzu

[litlit]

@litlir

 

There is skill mastery at high levels. The problem is that warframe wasn't designed for PvP, therefore you have all these outrageous abilities whose intent is too annihilate the enemy. To make up for that, enemies are stronger, more ruthless, more unforgiving. Trying to do any kind of skillful action is like saying, "Look, I'm free. You can hit me all you want!" If warframe was designed for PvP instead of PvE, yes, there would be high level skill mastery in that instance.

 

I disagree.

 

PvP is not a necessary component for skill mastery. Did you even read my post, where I provided an example of skill mastery in Warframe that is present in early game but is completely absent in the late game?

 

I don't have a problem with scaling enemy stats (damage, effective HP, etc). I do, however, have a problem with that being the only method DE uses to increase difficulty.

 

You're right with your second to last sentence -- yes, trying to use skill at parkour, maneuvering, and melee really is tantamount to suicide at high level defense (Tower 3 Defense included). And that is a major problem.

 

It makes sense that tactics that work at lower levels wouldn't necessarily work at high levels, sure. However, here I again have to ask if you read my post. Have you done a Tower 3 Defense? Have you seen recruiting chat when groups are looking for more people for Tower 3 Defense? Groups look for Vauban and Frost, because, guess what, the squad spends the entirety of the mission inside the Snowglobe and Bastille. I have played t3 Defense missions where I literally stood in the exact same spot (on top of the Cryopod) without moving even once, and moving around wouldn't have made me any more effective at completing the mission.

 

Unfortunately, now I have to take time to make something clear: I understand that Frost and Vauban are not literally necessary to do Tower 3 Defense. However, it is quite clear that the vast majority of groups that do Tower 3 Defense missions want that particular combination. This is not because these groups are noob scrubs that don't know how to play. It is because the balance of the game is such that a static, immobile playstyle -- sitting almost completely still in a Snowglobe + Bastille -- is the most effective, most efficient, least risky, and most rewarding style of play.

 

That fact, combined with the armor and resistance scaling on enemies as their level increases, means that not only is sitting still inside a Snowglobe and Bastille shooting heavy units while a squad member presses 4 to clear all the trash in an instant the only playstyle available late game, players have to do it with around 10 or so guns (the Ogris and innately armor piercing/ignoring ones).

 

These are problems that need to be addressed, and since it becomes harder the longer it takes, they need to be addressed quickly.

[Ruzu]

I disagree.

 

PvP is not a necessary component for skill mastery. Did you even read my post, where I provided an example of skill mastery in Warframe that is present in early game but is completely absent in the late game?

 

I don't have a problem with scaling enemy stats (damage, effective HP, etc). I do, however, have a problem with that being the only method DE uses to increase difficulty.

 

You're right with your second to last sentence -- yes, trying to use skill at parkour, maneuvering, and melee really is tantamount to suicide at high level defense (Tower 3 Defense included). And that is a major problem.

 

It makes sense that tactics that work at lower levels wouldn't necessarily work at high levels, sure. However, here I again have to ask if you read my post. Have you done a Tower 3 Defense? Have you seen recruiting chat when groups are looking for more people for Tower 3 Defense? Groups look for Vauban and Frost, because, guess what, the squad spends the entirety of the mission inside the Snowglobe and Bastille. I have played t3 Defense missions where I literally stood in the exact same spot (on top of the Cryopod) without moving even once, and moving around wouldn't have made me any more effective at completing the mission.

 

Unfortunately, now I have to take time to make something clear: I understand that Frost and Vauban are not literally necessary to do Tower 3 Defense. However, it is quite clear that the vast majority of groups that do Tower 3 Defense missions want that particular combination. This is not because these groups are noob scrubs that don't know how to play. It is because the balance of the game is such that a static, immobile playstyle -- sitting almost completely still in a Snowglobe + Bastille -- is the most effective, most efficient, least risky, and most rewarding style of play.

 

That fact, combined with the armor and resistance scaling on enemies as their level increases, means that not only is sitting still inside a Snowglobe and Bastille shooting heavy units while a squad member presses 4 to clear all the trash in an instant the only playstyle available late game, players have to do it with around 10 or so guns (the Ogris and innately armor piercing/ignoring ones).

 

These are problems that need to be addressed, and since it becomes harder the longer it takes, they need to be addressed quickly.

 

I did read your examples. I then tried to imagine doing those exact same things at higher levels. I have actually tried those very things. I found that they didn't work because of all the increased damage I was taking. Thus, it's why I said skill mastery is present at lower levels, but absent in higher levels because the enemy damage is so high, that if you try to do any fancy action, you're presenting yourself as a sitting duck.

 

For example, if you try to do a slide -> 360 sword swing at an enemy on mercury, even if you're being targeted, you're only being hit for like 5 a projectile. You'll make it no problem. Now, try doing that in a T3D. If you try to do a slide -> 360 sword swing at an enemy then, if you're targeted, you're being hit for at least 300 a projectile. For frames with relatively low health/shields, the're never going to make it. Not to mention the fact that it's going to be a totally useless action since the hp is scaled really high.

 

Based off that, I've come to this conclusion. I don't know whether or not you'll agree as well, but, fancy skills are more than enough to take down most enemies at the beginning, but once you get to the higher level, just skill alone is not enough to take down an enemy.

 

     ***You said that you and your friends took the time to master new combination of moves/attacks. That's excellent to hear. Here's the difficult       question you have to answer now. Will you force every other warframe player who can't be bothered to invest the amount of time you and your friends did, or don't think the investment into these more advanced abilities is worth it, to learn and master it just so the game can be toned down in numerical domination and be shifted more towards earned/natural domination? I certainly can't and won't do that. I would be telling others how to play at that point, and I wouldn't want that happening to me personally.***

 

As I mentioned in my other post, numerical progression is necessary to keep the casual players. However, I have agreed that the amount of bullet sponge in this game needs to be decreased to a noticeably acceptable level for casuals, but not so much that is breaks the games difficulty and this no longer even becomes a rewarding game. Where to find that balance is the point of this thread I believe.

 

So yes, to end this train of thought, when making higher level content more skill based, you have to think about what the entire player base is capable of executing, how long it took them, whether they think the investment to learn such advanced abilities was worth the results, and what portion of the player-base has no interest in learning these advanced abilities. 

 

Edit: I should've said I was responding to your non-dark-souls examples. Dark Souls and Warframe are so different from one another in terms to structure that it's impossible for me to compare them. Dark Souls has a mechanic that allows for raw pure skill. Warframe has no such mechanic since it is a progression based MMO. I'm not sure what Dark Souls is, but it doesn't seem progression based. -Just go wherever the hell you want, and as long as you can master every monster's attack patterns, you're gold-. 

Edited August 3, 2013 by Ruzu

[Chimwizlet]

I agree completely with pretty much every point that you've made, the only problem I have is I'm not sure how feasible it is for DE to fix it at this point.

 

To keep with the Dark Souls example alot of people have used already, the difficulty progression in that game was achieved by constantly introducing new enemies, environments and bosses, that require you to learn how to deal with them, while simultaneously making progression with your equipment and level.

 

Warframe on the other hand has shown you everything it can throw at you by the time you hit the mid-game, leaving you with nothing left to learn apart from the occasional boss and the void missions (which don't take long to figure out). Even with vast improvements to the AI, it wouldn't take people long to figure out how best to beat it when they are going up against the same enemies over and over and over again.

 

The only way I can see DE making the difficulty feel challenging and rewarding, is to firstly introduce significantly more enemy variety, with stronger, faster and more aggressive enemies being introduced as you get further and further into the game (for this to work they'd need to overhaul the AI as well as make things like speed, dodging and blocking much more integral to the gameplay).

 

Secondly, introduce well crafted 'dungeons' for endgame content. I don't think randomly generated levels would be sufficiently challenging for endgame content in a game like this. There need to be huge levels that are specifically designed to provide a challenge to players, ideally with a unique boss at the end, or at least a large battle that feels epic enough to top off the whole thing.

 

The problem with this being that they'd basically have to change everything that's currently in place, which I doubt they have the time or money to do, which is a shame as I feel this game has real potential to be one of the best examples of how to combine fast, skill based gameplay with classic dungeon crawler/RPG elements.

[Ruzu]

I agree completely with pretty much every point that you've made, the only problem I have is I'm not sure how feasible it is for DE to fix it at this point.

 

To keep with the Dark Souls example alot of people have used already, the difficulty progression in that game was achieved by constantly introducing new enemies, environments and bosses, that require you to learn how to deal with them, while simultaneously making progression with your equipment and level.

 

Warframe on the other hand has shown you everything it can throw at you by the time you hit the mid-game, leaving you with nothing left to learn apart from the occasional boss and the void missions (which don't take long to figure out). Even with vast improvements to the AI, it wouldn't take people long to figure out how best to beat it when they are going up against the same enemies over and over and over again.

 

The only way I can see DE making the difficulty feel challenging and rewarding, is to firstly introduce significantly more enemy variety, with stronger, faster and more aggressive enemies being introduced as you get further and further into the game (for this to work they'd need to overhaul the AI as well as make things like speed, dodging and blocking much more integral to the gameplay).

 

Secondly, introduce well crafted 'dungeons' for endgame content. I don't think randomly generated levels would be sufficiently challenging for endgame content in a game like this. There need to be huge levels that are specifically designed to provide a challenge to players, ideally with a unique boss at the end, or at least a large battle that feels epic enough to top off the whole thing.

 

The problem with this being that they'd basically have to change everything that's currently in place, which I doubt they have the time or money to do, which is a shame as I feel this game has real potential to be one of the best examples of how to combine fast, skill based gameplay with classic dungeon crawler/RPG elements.

 

If that's the case, Dark Souls is another perfect example of Artificial Difficulty. Learning new attack patterns is not too different from increased health/shields. It just makes the entire game longer by having to constantly learn new stuff through the entire game. It never gets old, sure, but there's another issue that creeps up. "Are the developers going to continue adding more outrageous movements to make it feel more difficult?"

 

The only way Dark Souls would be the perfect example to take advice from, is if the further you progress, the sharper the enemies are, the more intelligent they become, the more honed their reflexes become, the more tactical and strategic they become, and a lot more things that stem from highly intelligent Artificial programming. Being more aggressive is another example of power creep. What if the monster gets so damn aggressive that you don't even get the chance to do anything else but defend? It's like being constantly pelted with continuously increasing damage. Not fun for anyone.

 

As ironic as it may seem, a game that constantly throws stuff at you until the very end is a picture perfect example of information overload. It has to stop at some point so the player can digest all the information, instead of saying "Oh forget it, I'm just going to google the answer to this boss". This has personally happened to me so many times, and I'm sure to many others. By only introducing 'x' amount of weapons, at some point, you're forced to get creative and use your tools in combination with each other to discover new and better tactics to take on tougher bosses.

[Chimwizlet]

If that's the case, Dark Souls is another perfect example of Artificial Difficulty. Learning new attack patterns is not too different from increased health/shields. It just makes the entire game longer by having to constantly learn new stuff through the entire game. It never gets old, sure, but there's another issue that creeps up. "Are the developers going to continue adding more outrageous movements to make it feel more difficult?"

 

I dunno, to me there's a big difference between new enemies that require you to use new tactics, and the same exact enemies that just require you to do more damage and take less.

 

Plus supplying a constant stream of new enemies, means there's more variety in the combination of enemies the game can send at you at once. In this case a more appropriate example might be Bayonetta, or any of the other DMC style games.

 

You still encounter the basic grunts from the start of the game as you near the end, but now they'll have some of the newer, more dangerous enemies mixed in, which (if the enemies are designed well enough) presents a different challenge to just fighting one or the other separately.

 

Following on from the Bayonetta example, another idea could be giving old enemies new tricks. In Bayonetta, going up a difficulty didn't just mean enemies did more damage and took more punishment, it also meant enemies were faster and had new moves you wouldn't have seen before. We kind of have this with the new Elite Lancers, but as they are practically the same, just with shields and better accuracy/damage, it's not the best example, but there's no reason they couldn't use this to keep things interesting.

 

At the end of the day the more variety they introduce to the enemies and the combat, the more ways they can balance the difficulty to keep it fun and challenging without making it a number grind.

[Mietz]

If that's the case, Dark Souls is another perfect example of Artificial Difficulty. Learning new attack patterns is not too different from increased health/shields. It just makes the entire game longer by having to constantly learn new stuff through the entire game. It never gets old, sure, but there's another issue that creeps up. "Are the developers going to continue adding more outrageous movements to make it feel more difficult?"

 

Pfffffrrrt

 

Learning and execution is now the same as increased damage and health without any influence in execution or learning?

 

If only you could hear yourself and the nonsense that comes out.

[litlit]

I did read your examples. I then tried to imagine doing those exact same things at higher levels. I have actually tried those very things. I found that they didn't work because of all the increased damage I was taking. Thus, it's why I said skill mastery is present at lower levels, but absent in higher levels because the enemy damage is so high, that if you try to do any fancy action, you're presenting yourself as a sitting duck.

 

For example, if you try to do a slide -> 360 sword swing at an enemy on mercury, even if you're being targeted, you're only being hit for like 5 a projectile. You'll make it no problem. Now, try doing that in a T3D. If you try to do a slide -> 360 sword swing at an enemy then, if you're targeted, you're being hit for at least 300 a projectile. For frames with relatively low health/shields, the're never going to make it. Not to mention the fact that it's going to be a totally useless action since the hp is scaled really high.

 

Based off that, I've come to this conclusion. I don't know whether or not you'll agree as well, but, fancy skills are more than enough to take down most enemies at the beginning, but once you get to the higher level, just skill alone is not enough to take down an enemy.

 

     ***You said that you and your friends took the time to master new combination of moves/attacks. That's excellent to hear. Here's the difficult       question you have to answer now. Will you force every other warframe player who can't be bothered to invest the amount of time you and your friends did, or don't think the investment into these more advanced abilities is worth it, to learn and master it just so the game can be toned down in numerical domination and be shifted more towards earned/natural domination? I certainly can't and won't do that. I would be telling others how to play at that point, and I wouldn't want that happening to me personally.***

 

As I mentioned in my other post, numerical progression is necessary to keep the casual players. However, I have agreed that the amount of bullet sponge in this game needs to be decreased to a noticeably acceptable level for casuals, but not so much that is breaks the games difficulty and this no longer even becomes a rewarding game. Where to find that balance is the point of this thread I believe.

 

So yes, to end this train of thought, when making higher level content more skill based, you have to think about what the entire player base is capable of executing, how long it took them, whether they think the investment to learn such advanced abilities was worth the results, and what portion of the player-base has no interest in learning these advanced abilities. 

 

Edit: I should've said I was responding to your non-dark-souls examples. Dark Souls and Warframe are so different from one another in terms to structure that it's impossible for me to compare them. Dark Souls has a mechanic that allows for raw pure skill. Warframe has no such mechanic since it is a progression based MMO. I'm not sure what Dark Souls is, but it doesn't seem progression based. -Just go wherever the hell you want, and as long as you can master every monster's attack patterns, you're gold-. 

 

It seems I was the one not reading your post carefully enough.

 

To answer your question: no, of course I don't expect DE to tailor their game's difficulty progression to be based on skills that I personally think are important or fun. Like I said, I don't have a problem with buffing enemy stats as a difficulty modifier. We seem to be largely in agreement here, despite the confrontational tone of my last post.

 

My reasoning for wanting tests of player skill as a difficulty modifier is because if enemy stat scaling is reduced, the game will get easier, so it stands to reason that something should replace it to make it harder (if not now, then maybe later when DE adds new areas or something).

 

Surely some basic level of skill should have meaningful impact on player effectiveness (beyond "stand in bubble, press trigger"), but hey, I'm no game designer; it's easily possible that going the player skill route isn't a good idea. Still, something needs to change, and the forum is littered with suggestions.

 

[11.11.11]

but hey, I'm no game designer; it's easily possible that going the player skill route isn't a good idea. Still, something needs to change, and the forum is littered with suggestions.

 

I'm no game designer. But I've played more than enough of them to know - that when a game takes my actions into consideration, it becomes an interactive experience. Otherwise I may as well just be mashing the play button on my DVD player's remote. 

[eStecko]

Surely some basic level of skill should have meaningful impact on player effectiveness (beyond "stand in bubble, press trigger").

 

 

Nova's 4. ASPLOSION! (totaly not burgerpaul reference (totaly not reference inside a reference)) Everything dead.

 

Vauban's Bastille. Poor infested hanging in the air... holding left mouse button for the win.

 

Those things are so usefull in certain conditions, that they are capable of ruining experience for others and sometimes even for users themselfs.

 

Pfffffrrrt

 

Learning and execution is now the same as increased damage and health without any influence in execution or learning?

 

If only you could hear yourself and the nonsense that comes out.

 

What this guy said... +1. Actualy doing the move, that requires certain amount of skill, timing, understanding of the enemy moves and abilities and then executing upon all that is way more rewarding and more fun, then knowing that enemies in next location will have 5% higher dps and 10% more health.

[Bakercompany86]

I think this system can be salvaged without a complete overhaul.

 

Endgame would have to be programmed with the cap in mind.

 

Basically all endgame is set to accomodate:

 

-Level 30 Warframes with a reactor installed and maxed mods

-Level 30 weapons with a catalyst installed, maxed mods

-Maxed out Sentinels

-Maxed abilities

 

I think this would be fine in the long run.  The only issue that remains is what is the point of endgame?  Players need a sense of accomplishment or a carrot-on-a-stick to follow.  So what would our progression be?  

 

Materials for crafting are something that can be used in this sense.  Upgrades to Clan halls, maybe give the player a personal dojo or something.

 

One things for sure, stop the power creep increase.  Weapons and upgrades at some point should become linear instead of just rocketing our power upward.  Weapons should trade off on stats.  Basically, if you get a faster firing rate and more damage, you lose accuracy and magazine capacity etc (think of the difference between the Mk-1 Braton, and the Braton).  Instead of say, the difference between the Skana and the Cronus (where the cronus is simply superior in every way).

 

EDIT:  Basically, the theory behind this is everything is preparation for endgame with the actual endgame being a gear check.
Yes I know gear check is a dirty word.  But I've personally been okay with games like this in the past.  Where once you reach that cap and have your stuff maxed, the real game begins.  Ultra tough missions, incredible rounds of defense, etc.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[Guest]

extra credits all the way

[Inez]

Pfffffrrrt

 

Learning and execution is now the same as increased damage and health without any influence in execution or learning?

 

If only you could hear yourself and the nonsense that comes out.

Never played Dark Souls, but if its just memorizing enemy/boss patterns, then I'll pass. If memorizing enemy AI patterns is considered skill, I'll take bigger and bigger numbers.

Raiding in mmos is the same dreadfully boring thing. Its a big collective game of Simon Sez where the challenge is staying awake til the end. "Everyone group up" "Everyone spread out" "Dps target mob X" "Move out of fire" Lots of hardcore raiders think that this equals skill. Its the same kind of skill that assembly line work requires.

Once again, I've never played Dark Souls, so maybe it has much more interesting mechanics than simple memorization.

[Mietz]

Never played Dark Souls, but if its just memorizing enemy/boss patterns, then I'll pass. If memorizing enemy AI patterns is considered skill, I'll take bigger and bigger numbers.

Raiding in mmos is the same dreadfully boring thing. Its a big collective game of Simon Sez where the challenge is staying awake til the end. "Everyone group up" "Everyone spread out" "Dps target mob X" "Move out of fire" Lots of hardcore raiders think that this equals skill. Its the same kind of skill that assembly line work requires.

Once again, I've never played Dark Souls, so maybe it has much more interesting mechanics than simple memorization.

 

No DS is not about memorization and patterns, it is however about learning to counter things the AI throws out. Obviously it doesn't have infinite variability.

[nOOz]

I just have to say that this is off the chain!! 

Just loved reading this topic and the small videos says more than 1000 words. 

 

Huge Thumps UP

[Vaskadar]

Yeah, throwing more and more mechanically diverse enemies at the player progressively throughout the game is far better than pulling the numbers game.

But, I fully understand power creep. I don't see people using the Furis or Afuris, why? Because they've been made obsolete simply by damage numbers. Why should that ever be the case?

[Refreshing_OJ]

I'm curious as to how many people upvoted it without reading the entirety of the original post.

[CriticalVoid1]

I'm curious as to how many people upvoted it without reading the entirety of the original post.

 

I've read it twice now and still agree with the OP.