Rework EXTRAVAGANZA!!

[Shaw1996]

Even with a Flat Damage Reduction, the Aura that's in the Current Hysteria would still kill her since it would bring the amount of Ignored damage that's being stored up into her if a enemy is in the radius of the Aura and you deactivated it.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Shaw1996

[Illyia]

Just now, Shaw1996 said:

Even with a Flat Damage Reduction, the Aura that's in the Current Hysteria would still kill her since it would bring the amount of Ignored damage that's being stored up into her if a enemy is in the radius of the Aura.

That wouldn't be a part of her 'new' Hysteria. So it's moot.

[Betsill]

8 minutes ago, HeiAtzfel said:

Firstly, there isn't much. 15% difference, to be exact. Secondly, I don't think you seem to understand what 'strawman argument' means.

Holy S#&$ you must be trolling at this point.

"are you going to tell me that Mesa with 95% damage reduction is 'useless' against level 100 Corrupted enemies? Because if you are then you have zero clue what you're talking about as she is extremely tanky with Shatter Shield."

This is a straw man^

the difference between 80% and 95% is that you take 20% of the dmg vs 5% of the dmg THIS MEANS that you take 4X more dmg with 80% than you do with 95%... that's a big difference...

Edited January 3, 2018 by Betsill

[Illyia]

2 minutes ago, Betsill said:

Holy S#&$ you must be trolling at this point.

"are you going to tell me that Mesa with 95% damage reduction is 'useless' against level 100 Corrupted enemies? Because if you are then you have zero clue what you're talking about as she is extremely tanky with Shatter Shield."

This is a straw man^

the difference between 80% and 95% is that you take 20% of the dmg vs 5% of the dmg THIS MEANS that you 4X more dmg with 80% than you do with 95%... that's a big difference...

straw man

ˌstrô ˈman/

noun

noun: strawman

1. 1.

   an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

   "her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"
2. 2.

   a person regarded as having no substance or integrity.

   "a photogenic straw man gets inserted into office and advisers dictate policy"

Edited January 3, 2018 by HeiAtzfel

[Draemoris]

Okay so currently with 5 level 100s, valkyr with warcry and 2800 armor lasted 5 seconds against them. Mesa, with her shatter shield lasts 23 seconds. You wanna keep saying that Armor and DR are the same?

4 minutes ago, Betsill said:

If you put steal fiber on valkyr you will have over 80% dmg reduction. Try it out.

EDIT: Flat DR* Not DR represented by armor.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Numinex12

[Betsill]

3 minutes ago, HeiAtzfel said:

straw man

ˌstrô ˈman/

noun

noun: strawman

1. 1.

   an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

   "her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"
2. 2.

   a person regarded as having no substance or integrity.

   "a photogenic straw man gets inserted into office and advisers dictate policy"

    

   You are incorrect

I'm sorry I messed up. i thought 

"This is completely and utterly incorrect. Or are you going to tell me that Mesa with 95% damage reduction is 'useless' against level 100 Corrupted enemies? Because if you are then you have zero clue what you're talking about as she is extremely tanky with Shatter Shield."

was a reply to my comment about valkyr having 80% dmg reduction with steel fiber. 

[Draemoris]

10 minutes ago, Betsill said:

I'm sorry I messed up. i thought 

"This is completely and utterly incorrect. Or are you going to tell me that Mesa with 95% damage reduction is 'useless' against level 100 Corrupted enemies? Because if you are then you have zero clue what you're talking about as she is extremely tanky with Shatter Shield."

was a reply to my comment about valkyr having 80% dmg reduction with steel fiber. 

I've been hitting you with actual information and you aren't listening it seems.

EDIT: This makes me feel as if YOU'RE the troll at the moment. You compared armor to flat DR and acted as if the two are the same thing, I told you why you're wrong and you still seem too stubborn to listen. Again, armor can be penetrated by certain damage types for a specific amount, for example PUNCTURE. All frames are 50% weaker to puncture. Flat DR is not part of the armor pool itself and completely negates a % of the damage dealt. 80% FLAT DR is far more effective than 80% DR caused by armor. Stop trolling.

EDIT2: Here how about I make it simpler. You have two frames. One has 90% Flat DR as a buff, this cannot be penetrated through or shredded due to the fact that it isn't actual armor, it's a buff that overwrites your armor and always removes 90% of the damage being dealt. One has 90% DR through armor. If you take puncture damage and repeatedly hit both frames with it, the one with 90% DR from ARMOR will die quicker than the one that is negating 90% of damage from the buff it has because it doesn't HAVE a weakness to IPS OR elements.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Numinex12

[Illyia]

Long story short; damage reduction granted via armor and damage reduction given in a flat amount are two different 'pools' of defense. Armor can be shredded by certain damage types and thus reducing its effectiveness, flat damage reduction can NOT. For instance;

Let's assume my Valkyr with 2,800 armor has 95% damage reduction (it's more close to 90% but this is for argument sake). Now we put her against Mesa with Shatter Shield's 95% damage reduction. Valkyr has her mitigation granted through armor, Mesa's is a flat value given to her. Valkyr's DR can be lessened and made worse by damage types, Puncture, Corrosive, for instance. Mesa's, cannot. So no matter what happens to Mesa (barring AoE and melee) she will ALWAYS take only 5% of the damage inflicted to her, a luxury that armor-based DR doesn't have.

Think of it like this; armor is essentially a second layer of HP on the frame, whereas a flat DR value is a shield AROUND that health (not like an in-game shield). That second layer of HP can be altered and weakened by various damage types, the shield protecting that raw HP cannot be. Because of this, flat DR and armor-based DR are entirely different entities. Also because of this, flat DR values are simply more effective overall than armor derived ones.

[Betsill]

9 minutes ago, Numinex12 said:

I've been hitting you with actual information and you aren't listening it seems.

EDIT: This makes me feel as if YOU'RE the troll at the moment. You compared armor to flat DR and acted as if the two are the same thing, I told you why you're wrong and you still seem too stubborn to listen. Again, armor can be penetrated by certain damage types for a specific amount, for example PUNCTURE. All frames are 50% weaker to puncture. Flat DR is not part of the armor pool itself and completely negates a % of the damage dealt. 80% FLAT DR is far more effective than 80% DR caused by armor. Stop trolling.

It's a close comparison. It's hard to even use mesa as a comparison of what 95% dmg reduction would feel like because shatter-shield doesn't JUST reduce dmg. You are going to take less dmg with 95% shatter shield than you will with 95% dmg reduction on valkyr because mesa reflects the dmg back which periodically stops enemies from shooting. I assumed people test with heavy gunners cause that's what i do, so it was my mistake on that part. Heavy gunners use gorgons which is almost entirely impact dmg.

But if you take your test and say it's objective, you have a 25 second survival time on mesa with 95% reduction. If everything is exactly the same you will die 4x faster since you are taking 4x more dmg with only 80% reduction. This means you will die in 6 seconds with only 80% reduction.

There is really no point in continuing this discussion. It's VERY unlikely that this rework would happen and even if it happened DE will test the numbers themselves. I just know that valkyr without CC immunity sounds miserable.

[Illyia]

4 minutes ago, Betsill said:

It's a close comparison. It's hard to even use mesa as a comparison of what 95% dmg reduction would feel like because shatter-shield doesn't JUST reduce dmg. You are going to take less dmg with 95% shatter shield than you will with 95% dmg reduction on valkyr because mesa reflects the dmg back which periodically stops enemies from shooting. I assumed people test with heavy gunners cause that's what i do, so it was my mistake on that part. Heavy gunners use gorgons which is almost entirely impact dmg.

But if you take your test and say it's objective, you have a 25 second survival time on mesa with 95% reduction. If everything is exactly the same you will die 4x faster since you are taking 4x more dmg with only 80% reduction. This means you will die in 6 seconds with only 80% reduction.

There is really no point in continuing this discussion. It's VERY unlikely that this rework would happen and even if it happened DE will test the numbers themselves. I just know that valkyr without CC immunity sounds miserable.

Mesa reflects the projectiles back which does a paltry amount of damage, however that reflection doesn't impact her damage taken in any way. The only thing that will further reduce the damage she takes by preventing enemies from attacking her is the CC on Shooting Gallery (which is an effective defensive tool but is not part of this topic).

As for Valkyr without CC immunity; again that sounds like a player problem. Because I, for one, think Valkyr without CC immunity sounds perfectly fine. I don't have issues dealing with it on Excalibur, or Frost, or Mesa, or Ivara (though her Prowl does make that comparison rather unfair).

Edited January 3, 2018 by HeiAtzfel

[Draemoris]

13 minutes ago, Betsill said:

It's a close comparison. It's hard to even use mesa as a comparison of what 95% dmg reduction would feel like because shatter-shield doesn't JUST reduce dmg. You are going to take less dmg with 95% shatter shield than you will with 95% dmg reduction on valkyr because mesa reflects the dmg back which periodically stops enemies from shooting. I assumed people test with heavy gunners cause that's what i do, so it was my mistake on that part. Heavy gunners use gorgons which is almost entirely impact dmg.

But if you take your test and say it's objective, you have a 25 second survival time on mesa with 95% reduction. If everything is exactly the same you will die 4x faster since you are taking 4x more dmg with only 80% reduction. This means you will die in 6 seconds with only 80% reduction.

There is really no point in continuing this discussion. It's VERY unlikely that this rework would happen and even if it happened DE will test the numbers themselves. I just know that valkyr without CC immunity sounds miserable.

We're talking PURELY about the damage reduction right now, stop moving away from the point. You fail to understand what Armor and flat DR have as differences, we pointed them out for you. Shatter shield might reflect damage back, but that doesn't stop everyone from shooting at you. 95% DR on mesa feels exactly like what 95% flat DR would feel on any frame barring Rhino because his skin gives him 100% FLAT DR...to his main hp and shield pool at least. Though it adds 4k+ Ferrite armor which AGAIN, will still go down quicker to puncture damage, hell I even brought in a basic level 100 elite lancer and it tore through his armor in mere seconds. Also since I was using Shatter shield in the simulacrum, the CC from it is literally negligible, it's a very very minor stagger that hardly affects their damage output. As for the damage, yeah those ticks of 9 damage are surely going to be effective against even the most basic of level 100 troops.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Numinex12

[Betsill]

5 minutes ago, HeiAtzfel said:

Long story short; damage reduction granted via armor and damage reduction given in a flat amount are two different 'pools' of defense. Armor can be shredded by certain damage types and thus reducing its effectiveness, flat damage reduction can NOT. For instance;

Let's assume my Valkyr with 2,800 armor has 95% damage reduction (it's more close to 90% but this is for argument sake). Now we put her against Mesa with Shatter Shield's 95% damage reduction. Valkyr has her mitigation granted through armor, Mesa's is a flat value given to her. Valkyr's DR can be lessened and made worse by damage types, Puncture, Corrosive, for instance. Mesa's, cannot. So no matter what happens to Mesa (barring AoE and melee) she will ALWAYS take only 5% of the damage inflicted to her, a luxury that armor-based DR doesn't have.

Think of it like this; armor is essentially a second layer of HP on the frame, whereas a flat DR value is a shield AROUND that health (not like an in-game shield). That second layer of HP can be altered and weakened by various damage types, the shield protecting that raw HP cannot be. Because of this, flat DR and armor-based DR are entirely different entities. Also because of this, flat DR values are simply more effective overall than armor derived ones.

Agreed, but it's very close if you test against enemies like heavy gunners who deal almost entirely impact dmg which has no effect on armor. The best test we would be to do, is to get a trinity and a valkyr, give trin enough strength to get her blessing to 80% dmg resistance and then throw valkyr in the middle of a bunch of enemies.

The other guy in here said he tested his mesa and lasted 25 secs against lvl 100 enemeis(idk which ones) my mesa lasted about 14-16 seconds against 8 heavygunners. In order to determine how long she would survive(approximately) with 80% dmg resist is to divide the time by 4. So 6 seconds for his mesa and 4ish seconds for mine. It's certainly not identical to what a 1400 armor valkyr would look like but it's close.

[Betsill]

13 minutes ago, HeiAtzfel said:

Mesa reflects the projectiles back which does a paltry amount of damage, however that reflection doesn't impact her damage taken in any way. The only thing that will further reduce the damage she takes by preventing enemies from attacking her is the CC on Shooting Gallery (which is an effective defensive tool but is not part of this topic).

As for Valkyr without CC immunity; again that sounds like a player problem. Because I, for one, think Valkyr without CC immunity sounds perfectly fine. I don't have issues dealing with it on Excalibur, or Frost, or Mesa, or Ivara (though her Prowl does make that comparison rather unfair).

It does, but i don't care at this point.

If you have no problems running 100+ content without cc immunity or invulnerability on vaklyr then you are a much better player than me, and I think we should just leave it at that.

[Betsill]

10 minutes ago, Numinex12 said:

We're talking PURELY about the damage reduction right now, stop moving away from the point. You fail to understand what Armor and flat DR have as differences, we pointed them out for you. Shatter shield might reflect damage back, but that doesn't stop everyone from shooting at you. 95% DR on mesa feels exactly like what 95% flat DR would feel on any frame barring Rhino because his skin gives him 100% FLAT DR...to his main hp and shield pool at least. Though it adds 4k+ Ferrite armor which AGAIN, will still go down quicker to puncture damage, hell I even brought in a basic level 100 elite lancer and it tore through his armor in mere seconds. Also since I was using Shatter shield in the simulacrum, the CC from it is literally negligible, it's a very very minor stagger that hardly affects their damage output. As for the damage, yeah those ticks of 9 damage are surely going to be effective against even the most basic of level 100 troops.

I don't care. You are really annoying. That reply wasn't meant for you so obviously it doesn't address anything you have said. If you are so up HeiAtzfel's &#! then reply in the same comment on one account.

[Shaw1996]

Shatter shield is Projectile damage Reduction too. So a lvl 100 Melee enemy like a FlameBlade, and Tusk Scorpion would kill Mesa in no time.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Shaw1996

[Draemoris]

Just now, Betsill said:

I don't care. You are really annoying. That reply wasn't meant for you so obviously it doesn't address anything you have said. If you are so up HeiAtzfel's &#! then reply in the same comment on one account.

Cute. Regardless of who the comments are made for, freedom of speech. Naturally you wouldn't care, trolls generally don't. If you can't be bothered to use at least informed opinions and comments then don't comment at all. Take care friend o/

[Draemoris]

1 minute ago, Shaw1996 said:

Shatter shield is Projectile damage Reduction too. So a lvl 100 Melee enemy like a FlameBlade, and Tusk Scorpion would kill Mesa in no time.

Of course, but I can also use Gara to get a good idea of what actual 90% DR feels like against melee as well. Anyway, it would seem this topic is at an end. Farewell. :)

[Shaw1996]

1 minute ago, Numinex12 said:

Of course, but I can also use Gara to get a good idea of what actual 90% DR feels like against melee as well. Anyway, it would seem this topic is at an end. Farewell. :)

That's true